Truck Quershun

[BarryBobPosthole]

No, not which one's better. MINE is. This is about air intake.

I just had lunch with some old work mates and the guy I was sitting next to is a big Tundra fan. He claims he installed a K&N air filter and air intake ($300 is the price I found for my model) and increased his mileage from 17 to 19-20 on the highway and that he saw a marked difference in horsepower.
At today's gas prices it'd take a lot of fillups to pay that off, but the question does intrigue me. Mainly because this is a former sales guy that I have always known to be consistently full of shit.

But I thought I would ask our distinguished panel of experts. Personally, I have not heard of them.
Is this something I can or cannot live with or without?

BKB

[LJ3]

I researched it extensively fro my Titan. Made a huge difference in low end torque and little better MPG.

Magnum Airflow was the better choice for me. Filters last a lifetime and it ships with the cleaner.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Innersting! So you noticed enough difference that it made it worth it, eh?

BKB

[Thumper]

Frankly, I sometimes think the higher noise level when putting your foot into it tricks the mind into 'thinking' you feel a major power increase. My neighbor's kid installed one of those goofy 'coffee can' thingies on the end of his tail pipe. Considering I grew up in the muscle car era and know what a REAL engine sounds like, I think his little rice-burner sounds like shit. But, he swears that coffee can turned his car into a fire-breathing monster! Being the smart-ass that I am, I asked him what it showed on the dyno. All I got was a blank stare, followed by, "What's a dyno?" ;)

Personally, every new vehicle I buy, the first thing I do is pick up a K&N drop-in filter. I put the stock filter in the box and store it in the garage. When I trade the car, I re-install the stock filter and either transfer the K&N to my next vehicle, or if it's different (it usually is), I sell it on eBay for almost what I paid for it and buy a new one. I have no clue if there's an improvement, I've just done that for most of my adult life and it's kind of 'tradition' with me. As for the intake, I'm kind of an old-school ex-street racer who never could really understand why one would improve the intake, without improving the exhaust also (but you'd have to throw your $300 budget out the window)! For the most part, an engine is nothing more than a giant pump ... if more air comes in, more air must be able to get back out for max. efficiency. But, you're not going racing, so a little H.P. nudge would probably get you where you want to be. Expect more noise in the cab under load. It may sound cool for a while, but it might get a bit aggravating, to an old fart such as yourself, on a Canada trip pulling the boat. ;)

That said, I was hanging around a small group of Toyota mechanics a while back as they talked about some of the mods they've done to their trucks. They swear the K&N intakes have an irritating whistle, like an old 6-71 blower on a rail dragster. (don't ask, I have no clue if that's true). But, they swear by the Volant (or Volent maybe?) intake. Personally, I've never heard of them and it may just be a pack mentality that they all use them, but they claim the Volant is much better than the K&N. They all say they got a 'huge' power increase, and they sound awesome, but there seems to be a bit of disagreement on the mileage increase. Some claim a 2-3 mpg improvement, others say they have noticed no mpg gain. Who knows?

I hope Willy checks in ... he could probably take all of us to school on this issue.

[johnboy]

K&N gets a bad rap for getting oil on the MAF and causing issues. Less effective at cleaning air than a stock paper filter. No measurable power improvements. Better to spend your dough on a good quality paper filter and change regularly.

http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html

[Thumper]

Ha! As with most things, it depends on who you talk to. The MAF sensor thing is an old urban myth. https://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?id=422

As for the performance test, that's very interesting. The problem with the internet though, is you just don't know who or what to believe most of the time. It sure looks legit on the surface, but who knows what's true anymore? I did see one oddity in the article that stuck out like a sore thumb though. All the testing was done with various filters for the GM Duramax Diesel. Fine, but it's odd that THIS guy is the one who initiated the test: Arlen Spicer, a GM Duramax Diesel owner/enthusiast organized the test. The filters used in the test were purchased retail and donated by Arlen and other individual Duramax Diesel owners.

No big deal really, but if this guy were a politician running for office, I'd be extremely suspicious about the GM A/C Delco filter shining like a diamond in this test! :D

[Penguin]

Hmmmm. Kind of a good subject to piss off someone. :-/

Honestly the days where you could change a component or two on the intake and pick up 10 hp are long gone. Mostly. Occasionally you can pick up a bit but not as much as years past and not without tradeoffs.

Any of us that have designed engines have the software to get the low hanging fruit. Sometimes a high dollar intake can help. A lot of times the gain is not nearly what is claimed.

You pays your money and you tales your chances.

But I don't like the filter function of k&n. If you run in conditions where you actually need good filtering I like regular high quality paper better. And any additional wear on your rings and seats due to poor filter function is permanent. No bolt on fix for that.

But that's just my opinion. Could be that in some cases I'm out in left field. I like exhaust enhancements better. But like Jim says they cost. Which is why they don't come from the factory with them.

Will

[airbud7]

Yea!...what Will said^.....Thanks Will/ That was cool to read and true too....

[johnboy]

We ran K&N and oiled foam type filters instead of stock paper in our dirt bikes for one simple reason - they held up much better to getting soaked with water. Not something most of us need to worry about anymore.

[Arty]

This really boils down to a "Ford vs Chevy vs Toyota" type discussion. Those that have them are gonna swear by them. And versi vicey.
I have put a K&N filter in the last 4 cars I've owned.
I say it makes a difference, but that's cause I paid for the filter.

[Thumper]

TBH Johnboy, when I was racing dirt bikes, I had a minor sponsorship from K&N. They gave me an intake performance kit they were promoting. In return, I ran their decal on my bike. I lived in L.A. and they were a local company. K&N actually started out as a motorcycle dealership and started making performance air filters for dirt racers and later morphed into building automotive applications. That's when I first started using K&N and as I stated above, I've pretty much stuck with them ever since. These days, it's more of a habit than a necessity running K&N's in my vehicles. Heck, I like to keep my filters clean and the stock paper air filters run $25 apiece, but I can buy the K&N and never have to replace it, then sell it when I finish with it. I've been using them since the late 70's/early 80's and have never experienced any filter related problem.

As Willie says though, these days, aftermarket parts are generally not much of an improvement ... at least not like they were years ago. The automakers these days spend millions of $$$ trying to squeeze out an extra fraction of a MPG ... if all it took was a piece of pipe with a foam cone on the end of it, they'd be all over it. BUT, they also need to strike a compromise between noise output and performance increase.

[LJ3]

Well I'm hardly in a position to argue with an Engineer that build engines for a living and has worked on NASCAR Teams :)

I'm tellin' ya. I had more low end torque. It was noticeable right away and it had nothing to do with the sound, which was also cool. And get a borla exhaust system. Then you can be as cool as me.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I imagine if you drove an underpowered vehicle like a Titan, you'd probably perceive more of an improvement.
BKB

[Chicken Dinner]

Maybe it's just the accountant in me that says take a step back and look at whether what's being suggested is "reasonable". Given all the pressure on CAFE standards (I think that's the right term, but I'm far from a gear head.) and marketing around fuel efficiency/power particularly in the truck segment, is it reasonable to think that you could improve mileage 15-20% (2-3 mpg) AND increase power by installing a $300 (at retail) part that doesn't require replacement at certain intervals? If so, don't you think it'd be OEM by now? It just doesn't seem reasonable on its face.

[LJ3]

YOUR face isn't reasonable!

[Thumper]

YOUR face isn't reasonable!

Ha ha ha ha!! I gots ta' admit, that cracked me up! :D

[Chicken Dinner]

No, YOU'RE the poopy-face!


YOUR face isn't reasonable!

[BarryBobPosthole]

So Hank, you're not able to suspend your disbelief?

My very first car was a '65 VW bug, paid $60 for it. So I became an instant subscriber to JC Whitney catalogue and was for probably 20 years thereafter. If you drove a Beetle in those days you had to subscribe in self defense. If you owned ANY foreign car you could buy almost any parts both new and used. The air filter discussion reminded me of the old water vapor injector ads in JC Whitney that would boost your hp 20-30% and increase your gas mileage by the same amounts. I wonder if they're still in business.
The old JC Whitney was the best bathroom reading imagineable.

I replaced the jugs, the main bearings, cleaned that nasty old engine up and discovered that even though it ran quite a bit better, it was still a 36 hp engine. Even a K&N breather wouldn't have saved you from having to get a run at even moderate hills.

BKB

[Chicken Dinner]

Man, my first car was a '65 but that I paid $300 for. I obviously got ripped off. Moved up to a '71 or '72 after that with that weird semi-automatic shifting. First thing I did was put a set of headers on it.

As for the K&N claims, let's just say I'm skeptical. Again, I don't know all that much about cars. It just doesn't make a lot of sense from a high level.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Okay, so riddle me this Batman. One of y'all's Debbie Downer reasons for not thinking it would help is 'they've squeezed every foot pound, mile per gallon, etc etc (fill in the blank) out of those engines already'. Well, then what about aftermarket chips? Those are pretty well proven to change performance and some are even adjustable to tailor your engine's performance. Are those hoaxes too? I can say I've hauled a 21 ft boat a few thousand miles in a Ford F250 superduty deisel that had a sexed up chip in it and it'd flat run away from you. It definitely made a difference.
it didn't help the gas it drank though.

BKB

[Chicken Dinner]

I think that could be a different situation. Maybe they purposely tune down the power in order to increase the fuel efficiency. If you want more power and are willing to sacrifice fuel economy (and maybe engine life?), go get the chip. I'd be curious as to how the chip impacts your warranty.

[Arty]

I think that could be a different situation. Maybe they purposely tune down the power in order to increase the fuel efficiency. If you want more power and are willing to sacrifice fuel economy (and maybe engine life?), go get the chip. I'd be curious as to how the chip impacts your warranty.
I am pretty sure in most cases it voids it, but I also think they'd have to prove the chip directly caused whatever issue it is the car is having

[johnboy]

Yeah, any aftermarket tuner (they' re not actually 'chips' anymore) on your vehicle will automatically void your manufacturers power train warranty. I understand that the ECU in the vehicle will record their use so even if you remove it when you have a problem you are toast.

Tuners are a big deal in the diesel truck world as a lot of people want to remove all the additional crap that the EPA has mandated (DPF, EGR and DEF) to supposedly reduce exhaust emmissions. Removing this crap requires a retune of the engine control mod. Something I will certainly look at after the 5 year power train warranty is up. Till then, I'll stay stock as the thought of a $25K engine replacement gives me the shivers.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I will stay stock on mine too for that same reason. My dealer has a lifetime warranty on the engine if you feel follow their maintenance plan, which is easy enough nowadays.

Speaking of aftermarket, who's heard of Marvel Mystery Oil? I used that shit every oil change through about five vehicles. I couldn't tell you if it made a dime's worth of difference. But it kind of gave me the feeling of how much better your truck runs afyer a good detailing. Mine runs like a scalded ape after a good wash and wax.

BKb

[Thumper]

Ha! When I was much younger and dumber ... I'd actually dump a can of STP in my crankcase when I changed my oil. :hair

[BarryBobPosthole]

A can (or two) of STP would quiet down lifters and reduce the smoke until you could get a solid offer.

BKB

[Thumper]

When I was a kid, I remember my uncle was trading an old POS car he had and the differential whined like a banshee. He stuffed that puppy full of sawdust soaked in 90 wt. and she quieted right down until he dumped it. I always wondered how long that worked before it puked.

[Penguin]

That's a good part of it hank. You have several things you juggle when you're designing an engine. You have mileage, power, shape of the torque curve, durability, cost and emissions. Always cost and emissions.

Back in the old days the cost of a quality intake was almost inverse of its performance. And you could almost get a good one and improve everything at once. Now the cost of a typical intake is negligible. When you add aftermarket stuff you are usually just changing the trade-off calc.

Nowadays in the truck market the calculation almost always favors power. The emissions stuff is immovable. Mileage is an afterthought. 400+ hp half tons that get 18 mpg? You have to wonder what the typical workload on a truck like that is. :o

Will

[LJ3]

All I know is my new truck needs a more manly exhaust. It's embarrassing driving with the stock Ram setup.

[johnboy]

If you just want better sound, you could go with a cat back muffler system. You most likely won't need a retune with just that. I added a Rousch cat back to my 'stang and it sounds great.

[Big Muddy]

A can (or two) of STP would quiet down lifters and reduce the smoke until you could get a solid offer.

BKB

I can not believe you didn't at least mention those two famous words!!!.....SEA FOAM!!! ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

I actually thought of that and was kind of keeping track of how many posts before it was mentioned. All the way to 30!

A confession: I have never used Sea Foam.

BKB