I have a question

[quercus alba]

3500 people surveyed about preventing mass shootings stand at 57% mental health screening to 23% better gun control laws to 20% other.

It's good that people are starting to realize that more gun control laws isn't the stand alone solution. True, access to guns makes it easier for a mass killing but if we completely removed guns from our society then people would turn to other means of murder.

The questions I have are, is screening really going to give us an insight into what a person is capable of and how are we going to go about it if the answer is yes?

I have my own personal ideas as to the problem root but it's not going to be very popular among the masses and probably near impossible to fix

[BarryBobPosthole]

My issue with looking at mental health screening as a solution is what happens when some person comes backs home from a military conflict and is diagnosed with PTSD, what happens to them and their rights as citizens? And there are plenty more examples. Do we exempt people with all forms of autism? Bipolar? And many more. There’s just too much grey area in looking to a solution there.
And part of the problem is our support of the 2nd Amendment (including me) has prevented us from doing ANYTHiNG. I tend to agree with the ‘antis’ that doing nothing is no longer an acceptable solution. We’ve even cut off funding to research the damn problem. So it looks to me like we’re faced with regulations that go much further than we ever thought. I believe an assault weapons ban is coming. And our stubborn defensiveness to any reasonable solution is probably the reason for it.

My personal opinion is we have to look into this and identify small steps and measurements towards a solution. And some of those steps might be to allow states to experiment with their own regulations to see if it affects results. Those steps might be in direct conflict with the second amendment as most of us here interpret it.

BkB

[DeputyDog]

The mental health thing does need to be looked at. I agree that a certain diagnosis should not necessarily be a factor, but those who have shown a predisposition to being suicidal/homicidal should not be allowed to purchase. Not that it would stop them if they were determined to get a gun.

An assault weapons ban is nothing more than a feel good move. They will still be used in crimes like this because there will be thousands of them still out there that had previously been legally purchased.

Given the usual response time to a situation like this, would there have been any fewer casualties if he was armed with a revolver or limited to a 10 round magazine?

To me, it seems like maybe American society needs to look at why som many people feel compelled to commit mass murder? Has the per capita number of guns in America gone up at the same rate of mass shootings? If so, then maybe the number of guns is an issue, but if it hasn’t then it’s a societal problem.


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[Big Skyz]

Just one thing to consider. When I went to college, and as I send off students each year to go to college, there is a very common thread among those that major in psychology. Most of them are already freaking nuts! I think they major in psyc just to help them figure out why they are so screwed up. With that said, guess who will be determining whether you are mentally stable enough to own a firearm or not?...

[airbud7]

when that dude mowed down those people in his truck I just knew they would call for a ban on trucks!

They should first make it against the law to comment murder.

[Arty]

The mental health thing does need to be looked at. I agree that a certain diagnosis should not necessarily be a factor, but those who have shown a predisposition to being suicidal/homicidal should not be allowed to purchase. Not that it would stop them if they were determined to get a gun.

An assault weapons ban is nothing more than a feel good move. They will still be used in crimes like this because there will be thousands of them still out there that had previously been legally purchased.

Given the usual response time to a situation like this, would there have been any fewer casualties if he was armed with a revolver or limited to a 10 round magazine?

To me, it seems like maybe American society needs to look at why som many people feel compelled to commit mass murder? Has the per capita number of guns in America gone up at the same rate of mass shootings? If so, then maybe the number of guns is an issue, but if it hasn’t then it’s a societal problem.


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I like the last paragraph of this. 100%.

I will show my conservative feathers here, and say that I really think a lot of this starts at home. What are kids seeing, hearing, being taught (or not taught) after school is out? I’m not talking about the need for traditional families, and kids being left at home alone while parent and/or parents make a living to feed their dumb little asses... I’m talking about the cerebral and emotional stability that having a parent who gives a shit can have on their children’s well being.
Other than Vegas shooting, the vast majority of these are committed by late teen, early 20’s white boys.

There’s something wrong going on inside homes. And it isn’t video games. That is by-product. Something to fill a void. My boys love the crap out of video games, and play them more than I ever did. But they respect their parents, elders, and fellow humans. And neither have a propensity to seek out anger or bodily harm (to self or others) as a solution to any problem they have.
That said, I have no real answer other than it’s time to do something. But it needs to work. I honestly think a few well trained teachers with guns in their belt would stop 99.9% of this.

[DeputyDog]

My wife is a teacher, and the vast majority of teachers in her district at least, are so anti-gun none of them would want an armed person in the school.

She teaches in Michigan and I’ve joked with her that after seeing the info sent out by the NEA and the Michigan teacher’s union, most of her co-workers wouldn’t vote for Jesus if he ran for election as a Republican.


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[Penguin]

I'm going to throw something out here.... and I doubt seriously it will be appreciated by anyone. But that's OK. I have been around you guys for long enough to know that just disagreeing doesn't mean that I am right and you are wrong, or vice versa.

We, as a country, have a problem in that we have grown into a culture that flies in the face of millions of years of evolution. And hundreds of thousands of years of culture that we have went against. IOW we have generation that has grown up without the slightest idea of what belonging to a REAL community feels like. And we have replaced REAL community, or what scant leavings we had left a couple generations ago, and replaced it with an online and technical package that has been shown to genuinely damage those who get too attached to it. Think about it. All the social mores that curtailed bullying and ostracism and maintained rules of engagement within a typical social setting? Not even a whiff of it left. And these kids actually live and die emotionally on what someone says about them in an unsupervised and completely anonymous setting.

You cross that with the fact that 40 years ago we stopped allowing people with damaged brains to be committed to asylums?

What the hell would any rational person expect to happen? We've manufactured a slew of young people with almost no connection to those that surround them, a rampant willingness to attack and isolate those who don't fit in, and then allowed defective young men to run around within this setting while piling up grievances both real and imagined. And we act surprised? My god, I stopped being surprised about this kind of thing 20 years ago.

Name me one other culture in the world where this has become as commonplace as it has here. Name one. It's our culture. It's septic.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

Good discussion guys!

So clarify something, a few somethings, for me.

DD, are you saying that if only we could have a bunch of weapons in our schools we’d be able to stop all these school shootings? If we had conservative teachers that it’d solve the problem? I understand perfectly why you don’t agree with their views but it seems to me to be going a bit far to place the blame for mass shootings on a political ideology.

Arty, I agree that most of it starts and ends right in our living rooms. But me being the optimist I am, I think that the vast majority of American homes do teach their kids good basic values. Granted, there are a lot of kids growing up in horrible conditions with absentee parents and so forth. But think about who is committing these crimes. It isn’t the disadvantaged. we can’t spank or love or teach our way out of this.

And Willy, I think you’re hitting all around the issue. The commonality that I think we’re missing is why sociopathic behavior is so prevalent in our society. And its not just a value or morality I’m talking about, its a total lack of regard for how or what other human beings feel, whether they live or die, and allows them to inflict physical and emotional pain on others without a whit of conscience. That to me is the nut of the issue. Empathy is a human feeling that is basic and essential to the survival of our species. Our ability to buy into an idea, or story if you will, is what allows to build buildings and states and nations and sets us apart from every other species. There is no cooperation across so many of any other species on earth like there is in humans. That is somehow missing in people who commit mass murder.
BKB

[LJ3]

That's a pretty compelling observation there, Willie! My youngest daughter at 20 years old is struggling mightily in this dysfunctional terrarium we've created. It's hard for me to figure a way to help her make sense of the world. Some of that's on me for not seeing the signs earlier.

[Penguin]

Posty: Interesting take on it. And a good question. Whether we are creating more of them or just seeing the results of turning them loose into a society that is increasingly toxic to them.... that is another question I wish I could answer with certainty.

Len: I am sorry to hear that. They can fall into trouble so quickly. And it is tough to get them out of the ditch once they are in it. A gentle pull not a sudden jerk.... just like fishing with light tackle.

I think part of the solution is going to be a major rethink of how we live. And I don't mean whether to go to church on sunday or whether smoking a joint has Jesus' stamp of approval. I mean structuring life so that people can feel that they are doing important work for themselves and their community because they ARE doing important work for themselves and their community. And it ain't more of this techno driven lunacy that silicon valley is talking about exporting. Some dystopian future where humans are strapped into VR head gear and some sludge is fed into them intraveneously to keep them nourished. Where people jerk off 3 times a day to some virtual playboy bunny they've never met and pretend to walk along pretend beaches they've never seen.

It is a ghastly future. And it is being developed by the same maniacs who've created the one these kids are trying to deal with.

Real human bonds. With real people you interact with. And real work that takes place in the real world. Producing real things that real neighbors need to survive and prosper. We didn't evolve to exist in this electronic virtual world we are creating. Humans need dirt under their fingernails and earth under their feet. I guess you can tell that this is a sore spot with me.

Will

[LJ3]

I didn't think Jimmy would jump in on this one. Then you mentioned VR masturbation.

Jimmy in 3.... 2....

[DeputyDog]

Barry, I did not advocate for having arsenals in the schools. I was replying to the last paragraph of Arty’s post. I didn’t mean to imply that I felt any particular political leaning was to blame. I was just commenting that the vast majority of teachers that I have personally came into contact with would be opposed to having armed people in the schools other than the police.

I agree completely with Willy. America has raised a generation of sociopaths.

Not to sound all moral, but the push to remove all references of religion from society outside of the church buildings themselves has not helped. Add to that the electronic media kids are exposed to. The long term exposure to violence, even simulated, leads to a desensitization to violence and also leads to a lack of compassion and empathy toward others. There is a reason the military changes it’s training from shooting at bullseye targets, to silhouettes, to 3D targets. They found that this increased the number of soldiers who actually applied aimed fire towards the enemy. Read some of Dave Grossman’s stuff. It’s very interesting.

Barry, I don’t have as much faith in society as you do. There are some good homes out there, but if it’s a majority, I doubt it’s a big one. Studies on gang membership have shown that the lack of male role models make young men more violent as that is the way the perceive as macho from the entertainment industry which is their primary source of information. The gangs thrive on this.



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[BarryBobPosthole]

DD, I think mainly I was responding to the idea that more guns in the public’s hands in more public spaces makes us all safer. I think that idea is being seriously challenged now.

BkB

[LJ3]

DD, I think mainly I was responding to the idea that more guns in the public’s hands in more public spaces makes us all safer. I think that idea is being seriously challenged now.

BkB

John Lott would beg to differ and he relies solely on facts, true statistics and logic.

[johnboy]

Why is there a difference or what is the difference between Canadian and American high school students. They use the same social media, play the same video games, listen to the same music, wear the same clothes, watch the same movies and tv shows etc., etc., yet these school mass murder sprees only happen in America? We do have incidents here but nothing like what is happening in America.

So what are we missing? What is different? There certainly is an easier access to firearms in the USA but Canadians also posses a large number of firearms per capita. Is that it? I'm really stretching to understand this. Diet? Hormones in milk? WTF is going on?

[BarryBobPosthole]

I thought Canada had some sort of assault weapons ban and a ban on any clips or magazines that hold over five rounds.

Do you have to register all guns in Canada?

I’m not saying that’s the reason but aren’t gun laws between the US and Canada very different?

BKB

[DeputyDog]

Willy, I take it you’ve read “A Brave New World”?


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[Penguin]

Honestly dog I have to admit that I never did read that one. Or 1984 either...

I'm not sure why.

Will

[DeputyDog]

What you described society heading towards is pretty close to how it is in that book.

I’d say that a lot of what is described in that book can be seen to some degree in society today.

For anyone who is interested, it’s by Aldous Huxley.


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[BarryBobPosthole]

One of my favorite books! (Brave New World) I remeber when I first read it as a teenager I had no idea what one of the main characters meant when she asked her friend if she was too ‘pneumatic’ during sex.
Those Brits and their words!
BKB

[johnboy]

Barry, lots of regulations here around the owenership and purchase of fire arms. This Wiki article covers most of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Canada

Biggest difference here, I think, is the requirement to have a license to even posses a firearm of any type. Different licenses to purchase and own restricted firearms (handguns, for example).

The requirement to register all long guns was rescinded by the last Conservative govt. What a stupid rule that was so good riddance.

From my perspective, Canadians in general are much more ambivalent about firearms than Americans. We don't really have the 'gun culture' (for lack of a better phrase) that I think you do. Guns are more likely to be viewed as tools rather than fashion accessories.

Is this the big difference I'm looking for?

[BarryBobPosthole]

I don’t know anything about Canadian gun laws or how Canadians feel about them. I guess I was wondering more about what assault type weapons laws you have and how do they define what one is.

Do y’all have school shootings or mass murders like this?

BKb

[johnboy]

No we do not have school shooting or mass murders like you do. It has happened (Ecole Polytechnic) but very rare. The "why" is what I'm struggling to understand. Kids are kids. Why do yours do this and ours don't?

AR-type rifles are available in Canada but it would be much more difficult to buy one. Can't just walk in to your local gun store and buy an AR and a thousand rounds of ammo. You need a specific license to buy firearms. You need to take written and practical tests to obtain a license accompanied by a check by the RCMP. Your spouse has to sign the application if you are trying to get a license.

Any barrel length less that 18.5 in. is a restricted firearm and requires a different license and a Permit to Transport. Clip size is limited to 5 rnds max.

[LJ3]

Johnboy, you're asking the same question I am. What are the deltas between countries/societies/socioeconomic groups where there isn't as much of this horrific behaviour (you're welcome)? I don't think the answer is in firearms management. I think it's cultural, which is what Will and BBP are getting at.

[johnboy]

I'm starting to think that the cultural difference might be our relationship with firearms. There is something going on here that I don't understand. Gotta ponder some more.

[airbud7]

population of the United States = 325,933,434....it only takes 1 psycho individual.

[johnboy]

For sure, population is a factor - 10X the population should mean 10X the number of incidents, all things being equal but we have virtually NO school shootings like you see happening.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Johnboy, you're asking the same question I am. What are the deltas between countries/societies/socioeconomic groups where there isn't as much of this horrific behaviour (you're welcome)? I don't think the answer is in firearms management. I think it's cultural, which is what Will and BBP are getting at.

He just said what some big differences are.

BKB

[LJ3]

I know he did. Do I need to shoot you?

[Arty]

I know he did. Do I need to shoot you?


Lmao. No!
He’s a hell of a camp bitch when he wants to be!

[airbud7]

fixation psychology says it will happen again.....its on every news channel.....Evening News every night on every liberal Channel
...kids in Florida wanna tell you how to fix (Second Amendment) yet it was a Florida kid that did it...top story...
If facebook were to shut down for 1 week chaos would ensue within today's youth...


Have you ever woke up to find no coffee in the house?

Same thing but worse!....Cry-Baby world hooked on everything there friends say about them even on facebook?/ WTF?

There whole life revolves around that little box(iphone) and what other people say/think about them/ WTF?

Take your kids fishing like Andy did Opie!.....can't get no better than that folks!

that truly is what's happening

that little box there staring into holds the key!