Capetown... running dry

[Penguin]

Not sure how many of you have been keeping up with this, but it is a startling thing to contemplate. Capetown SA is about to run out of water.

This article lays out the details: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/cape-town-water-crisis/553076/

I know Vegas has flirted with this situation in the past. I can remember Charlotte NC being at the bottom of the barrel when I lived there. And we know California has been in bad shape recently. But this isn't flirting with running out, this is actually running out and rationing.

Kind of funny how many things we take for granted isn't it? Can you imagine living somewhere that you have to stand in line to purchase water?

Will

[airbud7]

move where water is or die standing there!

we have deserts in America we just don't live there

Edit: Death Valley is 282 feet below sea level ....a Giant siphon hose would fix that shit...or a long ditch like Panama Canal project.

[Penguin]

Yeah that whole Vegas area thing is a puzzle. I'm sure archaeologists are going to be studying it in 500 years wondering what the hell we were thinking. :)

Limits. They are something we humans don't deal with very well.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

I saw a tv program about the water conundrum in the southwest. Basically it seems the choice often comes down to using the water to provide infrastructure for economic development or use it to feed the rest of the nation.

Water is getting to be a huge issue for most states west of the Mississippi.

BKB

[Penguin]

Good point Barry.

Living in the east for a lot of my life, and spending the rest of the time in the Great Lakes region, has made this almost unfathomable to me. It really is. I've read that even collecting rain water off of your roof in order to water the garden is outlawed in some locations. And even the thought of building a cattle tank could probably get a man locked up I guess.

Water is life though man. I guess if we start running out of it we'll find out how true that is.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

Here in Oklahoma, the Indian tribes who’s tribal boundaries contain most of the good water here are asserting themselves in water rights fights. The reservoirs were built with federal money, but the tribes claim a piece of the action be ause of where they were built. Its a thorny issue. North Texas is thirsty for Oklahoma water and have tried in courts to claim they should have water rights in Corps of Engineers lakes. They lost. Then Okie City tried to go get water from eastern Oklahoma and the Choctaws intervened and for now its locked up in the courts.

I live in a water rich portion of a state that can’t figure out who or how it should be allotted dven to our own citizens.

SAD!

BKB

[quercus alba]

Captain trips could settle a whole lot of these issues

[Bwana]

East versus West as it relates to water rights, boils down to Riparian Water Rights versus Prior Appropriations Doctrine. The western states have been aware of the fact that they live in a semi-arid region for some time now but a lot of folks either forget or fail to realize that fact which is why priority dates are such a big thing out here.

[Penguin]

I'll have to do some reading on that bwana. Thanks for the tip.

I know there have been some serious shennanigans over water rights out west but never looked into the particulars. I think I will do that now. What I do remember is thinking "Wow! That doesn't seem right to me." But then you realize that if you were to try to correct the wrong it essentially dooms a city or area of the country to going back to cactus. It really is a damned hard subject.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

The documentary I was referencing is called “Killing the Colorado”. Its on DiscoveryGo and is also on youtube if you don’t have that. It frames the issues in the west pretty well.

BKB

[Thumper]

Water shortages have been a major concern, in some areas across the world, for many years. "Some" countries have taken the bull by the horns and have actually done something about it. I think the mindset in the U.S., many times, is to sit on our asses and wait for a crisis of some sort, THEN spend a bazillion bucks during the next 10-20 years while thinking of ways to fix it. Heck, we'd probably still be driving around in 5,000 lb. behemoths getting 10 mpg, had it not been for the '73 oil embargo (or as we like to call it, the "fuel crisis"). We had no clue how to build smaller, lighter, stylish, fuel efficient automobiles and the one's we rushed into production were not only ugly, they didn't even run worth a crap and were a total joke IMHO! Enter the imports! The US auto industry fell flat on their faces and the imports have been gaining market share ever since. The point is, as usual, we stick our thumbs up our asses until it's "too late", then scramble to come up with an alternative. The US has a shoreline/coastline of 12,400 mi. to 95,500 mi. (depending on who you ask). Considering we have the Atlantic, the Gulf and the Pacific surrounding our country, we basically have an unlimited supply of "water". The problem is, we can play in it, but we can't drink it, or even irrigate with it. What's wrong with desalinization plants? They used to require tons of electricity and were considered too expensive to be economical, but the costs were knocked WAY down with reverse osmosis technology ... like 20 frigging years ago! Here are the top desalinization plants around the world ... other than the one we have here in Tampa, where do WE stand (as a country) compared to the rest of the world when it comes to desalination?

Table 1: Large RO Seawater Desalination Plants Constructed In The Last 10 Years
Plant Name/Location Capacity (mgd)

Tampa Bay Desalination Plant, USA 25.0
Point Lisas, Trinidad 28.8
Almeria, Spain 13.2
Las Palmas – Telde 9.2
Larnaca, Cyprus 14.2
Muricia, Spain Design-Bid-Build 17.2
The Bay of Palma/Palma de Mallorca 16.6
Dhekelia, Cyprus 10.6
Marbella – Malaga, Spain 14.5

Table 2: Large RO Seawater Desalination Plants In Design/Construction
Plant Name/Location Capacity Installed/Avg. (mgd)

Fujairah, UAE 45
Carboneras – Almeria, Spain 32
Ashkelon, Israel 35.4 expandable to 75
Singapore 36
Cartagena – Mauricia, Spain 17.2
Campo de Cartagena – Mauricia, Spain 37
Almeria, Spain 13.2
Alicante, Spain 13.2

Now, as for the Vegas comments, my dad lived in Vegas for many years and loved it there (he didn't gamble, smoke or drink) and there is MUCH more to Vegas than "The Strip". I don't see where it was such a dumb idea actually. The gaming industry alone accounts for $700,000,000 - $725,000,000 in tax revenue, add to that the tourism income and you have one heck of an economic gold mine there. As for building the city in the "desert", it's located on the Colorado River and with the formation of Lake Mead after the building of Hoover Dam (to supply electricity), provided a HUGE reservoir being fed by not only the Colorado, but also the Virgin River and the Muddy River. Add to that, the water from the Las Vegas Wash and snow melt, and you wouldn't have much fear of a water shortage. Many of the casinos, including the Bellagio and it's monster pool/fountain, use non-potable water from wells located on the property for irrigation and water features like fountains, etc. LV stays pretty much on top of the situation and gives incentives (rebates) for residential xeriscaping. Heck, they'll pay out $2 for every square foot of grass replaced with low water consuming trees or shrubs, etc. One individual removed enough grass to claim $300,000, even though the $2 rebate only covers the first 5000 sq. ft, then drops to $1/sq. ft.

I believe they've suffered drought conditions for the past 15-20 years, but as we've learned, ANY part of the country can suffer from drought. With the "they should't live there in the first place" attitude, you could carry that out to ridiculous lengths. Should all coastal regions from New York through Texas be deemed uninhabitable due to possible hurricanes? Should living in the 11 states deemed "tornado alley" be declared uninhabitable? Should living along coastal areas including lakes, rivers, swamps, streams or very large mud puddles be deemed uninhabitable due to possible flooding? How about the plains or forested regions due to possible wildfires? Mountainous areas for fear of the inevitable land/mud slides? Heavy snow areas where road graders have to be sent in so that people can get out of their houses to get groceries? Of course, we shouldn't live anywhere close to fault lines due to the possibility of earthquakes. I suppose the question is, where do you draw the line?

[Penguin]

Good point Jim.

The costs have been reduced and it's a very good thing too. But it still means that a necessity costs as much as diet coke or a cheap beer per ounce and that flies in the face of our feeling that it is a right to have practically free drinking water.

About Vegas? We'll have to disagree there. When I flew into it you had this gigantic ring around Lake Mead like a huge bathtub ring where it was running low. We've already got to the point where the Colorado River is practically sucked completely dry before it gets to the ocean. And while I do agree that there is a heck of a lot more to Vegas than just gambling, let me ask you a question: Would there be a huge city there if it weren't for gambling and prostitution laws that are different than the neighboring states? A city whose main source of income is vice? A zero sum game where at times the gambling means losing money better spent on things like your children's education? Mortgage payments?

I'm not saying I think all of that should be outlawed but I am saying that just because someone can make a living at something doesn't make it virtuous. Or even worthwhile.

A lot of it depends on what you think our future is going to be like. We have over a 100 years where we could practically do anything our imaginations could cook up. I'm not at all sure that in another couple decades the rest of the nation will be willing to spend the energy to maintain areas that are so inefficient in terms of energy needs. As long as we have a lot of cheap and easily accessible energy? Maybe, probably even. But 'IF' things continue on the path I'm seeing us go down now? And 'IF' having Vegas depending upon major league air conditioning units and water that falls thousands of miles away means something else like food production in another region has to suffer? My bet is that the rest of the nation would drop Vegas like a... well you get the idea.

THEY might make out like bandits from their chosen profession(s). But what, exactly, does the rest of the nation gain through them doing so? That, to my mind, is what makes the position of Vegas so tenuous.

Will

[DeputyDog]

We flew into Vegas last spring and there is definitely a “ring” around Lake Meade. From the looks of it, it appeared to be at about half of the level it used to be.


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[BarryBobPosthole]

Mead has been that way at least since the 90’s when Julie took a float trip down the Colorado below the dam. What our guide said about the lake levels was that the engineers have now figured out that what they though would be normal pool years ago was really overestimated and where it is now, while lower, isn’t nearly as far below normal pool than was originally thought.
Not sure I buy that shit, but its what the Corps says.

BKB

[Thumper]

Oh yeah, no doubt Lake Mead is in trouble, but the point I was trying to make is that you could throw a dart at the map and find most anyplace that "could" run into trouble from most any act of God or natural disaster. It's like here when a hurricane hits and communities along the coast get wiped out. You always have that group of people who stand back and say, "They deserve what they get for building a house on the beach!" New Orleans deserves what it gets (flooding), as any idiot knows they shouldn't build a city on the coast, LOWER than sea level! San Francisco? LA? Who the "f" would build cities along a fault line? There's no end to it, just pick one to trash and run with it.


About Vegas? We'll have to disagree there .... Would there be a huge city there if it weren't for gambling and prostitution laws that are different than the neighboring states? A city whose main source of income is vice? A zero sum game where at times the gambling means losing money better spent on things like your children's education? Mortgage payments? I'm not saying I think all of that should be outlawed but I am saying that just because someone can make a living at something doesn't make it virtuous. Or even worthwhile.

Well, now you sound like you've climbed up on your pulpit to preach to all the sinners out there. Isn't that a bit of a stretch? I mean, Vegas isn't all that cheap ... I'm sure the ne'er-do-well parents of this country can find PLENTY of places to squander their money, outside of Nevada. Drugs are a major example you can attribute to most anyplace in the country ... pick a city. I think you're stretching that reasoning to the point of ridiculousness. To many, beer and liquor is a sin, yet you can buy it at your local grocery store. I'm guilty of some of that prejudice myself. It gripes my ass to see some low-life, who has no problem making kids but is unable to feed them, yet he never seems to run out of beer or cigarettes. To me. THAT is a major sin. Vegas is fun and makes for an interesting vacation ... there's actually something there for EVERYBODY.

Enough of that. If you ever have the time to read up on it, the history of Las Vegas is actually pretty fascinating. There was a time when Vegas was an Oasis in the desert due to an abundance of artesian wells bubbling to the surface and forming a lush, grass covered area called the Las Vegas Wash. Vegas was a major supply and water stop for wagon trains and travelers on the The Old Spanish Trail. Incidentally, the Spanish named Las Vegas, which translates to 'The Meadows' in English. What really put Vegas on the map, was mostly created by the U.S. government. The railroad was built through Vegas and it not only brought many workers to town (a population build-up), it also became a water stop for the trains passing through. In the mid-1800's, the Mormons came down, built a fort and started a farming community there, due to the readily available water supply. Now enter the Boulder/Hoover Dam construction, and the population grew by 400%, mostly men, with nothing to do when not working. Enter booze, casinos and showgirls ... a wide open market for the Mafia to build entertainment venues for the mostly male population. Then came WWII and the military training schools, more men to "entertain". After the war, these wartime schools became Nellis Air Force Base ... an even bigger population boost. After the war, the mob had a pretty substantial portion of the entertainment industry under their control. The problem with the mob building casinos, was how to launder the money they were putting into the construction. The mob teamed up with the Mormon "syndicate" (sorry B/S) to accomplish this. Of course, the Mormons could not be linked to wimmins, booze and gambling, so they ended up teaming up with the mob and dominating the banking industry in Vegas. It gave an outlet for the mob to launder their off-shore accounts and turn the (now cleansed, untraceable) cash into gaming industry investments. (Mormons and Mafia ... strange bedfellows! ;) )

Although most relate Vegas to the Mob, the Mafia really wasn't there all that long. In the mid-60's, Howard Hughes came to town, liked what he saw, and started buying property as well as many of the established casinos ... which basically ran the Mob out of town. He's the one responsible for turning the cesspool into a more refined city and major vacation destination, even for families with kids. Ok, I'm gonna climb down off my soapbox and try to get some work done around here. For the record, I do enjoy visiting Vegas ... either the Strip or the Fremont Street area. I don't drink or gamble, but the city and it's casinos are a great place for people watching, exploring, eating or catching some kick-ass shows. Flame away ... I'm out'ta here for a while. ;)

[Penguin]

I think you misunderstood Jim. I brought up the zero sum nature of vice because you used the economic impact of those as sort of a defense of the city. All I'm saying is that for that kind of business the rest of the country gets what? Food? Clothing? Furniture? Fuel?

As long as we have plenty of water and energy? Well no one gets too bent out of shape. Make them choose between an inefficient energy intensive playground for the well to do and their next meal? You know what would happen.

And all I'm saying is that the way things are going I could see Vegas eventually being put on the chopping block. Being kind or generous isn't part of the equation. It's a matter of priorities if resources get tight.

The shape a lot of the country is in no one is safe. If sea rise gets to the point of taking out Miami or New Orleans.... What could be done long term. Really?

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

Then the Dolphins should move to Orlando. The Saints can go to hell as far as I’m concerned.

BKb

[Thumper]

Hold on Mr. P. I’ll get right back to ya’. I need to email Al Gore on his own internet thingy to get answers to many of your questions. :)