Elk, Caribou, Deer, ......vs Wolves and Bears

[BarryBobPosthole]

I think I first heard about RMEF from Cliffie when he used to post here. This article is thought provoking in a couple of ways.

The whole ‘natural balance is a Disney movie’ argument seems to me to be a total cop out. As if the fact that we have totaly upended natural balance over much of the world makes it rational to just keep on screwing things up.

I bought two Arctic wolf tags back when I went caribou hunting in the Great White North. I was kind of on the fence about whether I’d shoot one or not so I talked to the outfitter owner (True North Safaris) about it one night. The hatred he has for wolves and that he spewed out caught me totally off guard. He wrapped it up by saying he’d charge me extra if I saw a wolf and didn’t kill it. As it was, I watched a couple of them through binos for about ten minutes one day but they were way far off. So I didn’t get charged extra. He hated them because they kill caribou, which is his bread and butter. The Inuit guides I hunted with all felt the same way.
I’ve heard much the same from coyote hunters and their claim that they are deer (fawn) killers.

Predation of big game species might be a factor in some areas, true enough. But to the extent it is claimed? I don’t claim to know. And I’m not making a statement on predator hunting either, other than to say that I find the excuse that they’re helping the deer or elk or caribou by doing it kind of disingenuous.

BKB

https://www.hcn.org/wotr/a-once-proud-conservation-group-has-lost-its-way

[quercus alba]

A slippery slope indeed. I will say this, given a choice between wolves/coyotes and deer/caribou, I’d vote the cervidae platform every time.

[jb]

I have had a couple of chances to shoot yotes and passed, I love dogs , just about any kind, yotes are just another breed to me.
Would never consider shooting fox or wolfs either.
Up here we have a lot of orchards, owners don't want you to shoot them either, they all eat mice, and mice do a lot of damage to orchards

[BarryBobPosthole]

I never ever considered that mice could harm an orchard. That a lot of mice!

BKB

[Arty]

You wait until Larke sees this. You gonna be in trouble again!

[Big Muddy]

I hate 'yotes, and shoot the mangy, fawn-eating, rabbit-eating, turkey-egg-eating, quail-egg-eating sob's in a heartbeat.....matter of fact, I made two 'yote hunts, this week, since deer season has closed.....managed to call in two on each hunt, and they were all nearly hairless from the mange.....they are now in 'yote heaven, but so nasty looking, I didn't even touch them for pics.....buzzards and possums gotta eat, too. ;)

[Bwana]

I don't have a vendetta against predators but they do affect critter populations and I do enjoy hunting them, just as I do cervids. That being said and though I used to trap them when I was in high school, for the most part I give fox a pass these days as since the coyotes have moved in the fox have really taken a beating.

As for coyotes, they can be a real challenge to hunt which is part of why I enjoy doing so. That coupled with the fact that they are again this year bringing a pretty penny just allows me to recoup some gas money. Have sold 2 that Dad snared this year for $80 each and that wasn't even skinned.

Shot my first bear this spring and would love to go again. A wolf would be pretty cool as well but having never done so before might be part of the draw.

When all is said and done, I don't discriminate...I just enjoy hunting which is different than killing because that doesn't always happen, some days that is on purpose.

Not sure I answered your question, though I am not sure if you really asked one.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I was trying to start a discussion on the topic, Bwana. I like what you say about hunting vs killing.

There are a lot of things I used to do that I find no enjoyment in these days. Its not a moral thing I don’t think.
For example, I have shot a gozillion bricks of 22 bullets killing turtles on farm ponds. It was just something to do. Nowadays I give most all turtles a pass unless I happen catch one fishing.
I used to kill just about any varmint at crossed my path when I was out and about. Coyotes, skunks, bobcats, coons, possums, feral cats, you name it.
Nowadays, nope.
Things change for some reason.

I’m conflicted about bear hunting. (for me)

And so I guess I think the RMEF is wrong in their approach to killing every wolf if they could. The elk are, in my opinion, better off as a whole having them around.

BkB

[Chicken Dinner]

I definitely think predators have a place in an ecosystem, but I wouldn’t think twice about dropping the hammer in one when legal.


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[Trav]

I can’t really speak to wolves because I have never seen them and obviously we don’t have them where I hunt. I will say most predators are a different situation, Barry you make a valid point in that we humans have upset the natural balance of things. We as humans can’t (well won’t) reverse the issues we have caused such as habitat loss, ground cover, water drainage ect but most predators are infinitely more adaptable than most of the game species we covet (big game, upland birds, turkey, waterfowl and the like). Short of reversing what we’ve done (which I think we all agree will never happen) the next best thing is to control the predators that have proven to be less impacted by what we have done.

I am not sure if my rambling make sense but that is how I feel.

[Arty]

Well, if it didn’t make sense, at least you said it twice, to explain yourself.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I heard ya the first time!

About your point about humans affecting the ecosystem, that includes early man as well. And I wasn’t saying that humandkind is bad necessarily either. We are, after all the dominant species on earth. If you don’t count fungi and termites. The whole prairie tallgrass ecosystem where we live was changed by the injuns with fire. I’m sure that rubbed out something’s habitat that lived there before.

BKB

[Chicken Dinner]

Are we not part of the ecosystem?


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[quercus alba]

Where's Captain Trips when you need him to come along and put the ecosystem back in check

[BarryBobPosthole]

Captain has an entire e osystem livng between his toes.

BKB

[Penguin]

I read through all of the responses, pretty encouraging I would say. I can only imagine what the discussion would have been had this been posted on some other sites I (used to) frequent. :)

Posty I have to say that while I was reading the posts on nature and the relationship between predators and prey I was thinking of all of the other issues that could be categorized in the same way: complex.

I don't know how many of the problems that we face as individuals, communities, nations, and as a species just do not have a simple or easy answer. A lot. A good many seem to me to not be problems at all but are instead predicaments. IOW they don't have answers that could alleviate the pain that the problem causes. There are only ways to manage who gets the pain and the degree to which it is doled out. Reminds me of one of my favorite songs of all time, 'Living the Dream' by Sturgill Simpson:

That old man upstairs, he's wearing a crooked smile
Staring down at the chaos be's created.
He said "Son if you ain't having fun just wait a little while
Mama's gonna wash it all away and she thinks mercy's overrated."

Mama, of course, being Mother Nature. And she doesn't seem to have much use for mercy does she?

Will

[Chicken Dinner]

My grandfather, a retired ship captain, liked to say that Mother Nature is a bitch.


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