Why...

[johnboy]

... is everything now about race and sex? Seriously.

[Thumper]

What‘chu gots against sex? ;)

[airbud7]

... is everything now about race and sex? Seriously.

Only to a very few,,, However, "that few" are the biggest/loudest/lowest iq crybabies in the country!

[johnboy]

:thumbsup :thumbsup

[BarryBobPosthole]

Against the right fat man, I could win a race.

Not naming any names.

Thumper.

BKb

[airbud7]

:laughing

[Penguin]

To answer the question: Because that is the only tool by which the young have been taught to view the world... for a long time now.

IOW if there is a segment of the population that lags behind in any way (culturally, in educational, economically, you name it) then the answer to the issue lies in society's bigotry based on race or sexual orientation. It is the only officially allowed reason for the shortcoming. Further, this means that there really isn't a problem with the way things are laid out in terms of the overall economy. The only problem is to make sure that economic successes are equally divided among the designated groups.

You can see why this would be a popular way to view the world... for some.

And now you know why groups that espouse this view are given political and economic support. It costs those in power nothing and gives them free reign to continue business as usual. Those big checks you saw written in the last couple of weeks? Inexpensive insurance to protect against charges that those corporations would need to make changes in any way that would actually matter to the bottom line of the great majority of employees. Those like myself who say that economic class plays a large role in why certain groups or segments of groups fall behind have been shouted down in the last couple of years.

What you are seeing is all of that wacky shit happening across college campuses the last 20 years is now being brought to the workplace. Those kids have grown up and they are now enforcing orthodoxy.

We all see the world through stories. They are shortcuts to help make sense of the world. Cliff notes that allow us to wade through complicated situations. One of my favorite bloggers wrote a blog about this a decade or so ago. In it he said:

"To know many stories is wisdom.
To know no stories is ignorance.
To know one story is death."

IOW if you can only see the world one way, with no subtlety or nuance, you are doomed to failure. It can cost you everything when an uncooperative world throws you a curve ball. Trying to stuff the entire round world into a single square hole can bring you a ton of grief. What you are seeing around you is rage that this round world has refused to be stuffed into this square hole for a few decades now and shows no signs of relenting. So instead of looking at these problems with a fresh set of eyes and making some changes that might actually work we're going to just take the old medicine and put it on steroids.

Will

[Thumper]

Well done Professor Willy! I was just about to say the exact same thing, almost word for word, but you beat me to it. ;)

[airbud7]

Well done Professor Willy! I was just about to say the exact same thing, almost word for word, but you beat me to it. ;)

Me Too Thump!....He sure did save us a lot of typing!...:D

[BarryBobPosthole]

“IOW if there is a segment of the population that lags behind in any way (culturally, in educational, economically, you name it) then the answer to the issue lies in society's bigotry based on race or sexual orientation. It is the only officially allowed reason for the shortcoming.”

I think I’ll have to take a pass on this generalization. This assumes there has been no discrimination in the work place based on gender or orientation, skin color, etc etc. and that the reaction is simply because ‘they’re lagging behind economically’. My problem with that premise is that its very easily shown via hiring numbers, salaries, and so on that there are segments that have been treated differently in businessbased on nothing but their gender or race. I’m not saying the fix always needs to be a law, but having ‘grown up’ in business in the 70’s and 80’s there was a LOT of disparity based on those things.

Pretending its all a mirage, thus the reaction has to be wrong is not the way to deal with it either, IMO. With respect, of course to the Chillymaster!

BKb

[Thumper]

Always a fly in the ointment. :poke

[Penguin]

I think I’ll have to take a pass on this generalization. This assumes there has been no discrimination in the work place based on gender or orientation, skin color, etc etc. and that the reaction is simply because ‘they’re lagging behind economically’. My problem with that premise is that its very easily shown via hiring numbers, salaries, and so on that there are segments that have been treated differently in businessbased on nothing but their gender or race. I’m not saying the fix always needs to be a law, but having ‘grown up’ in business in the 70’s and 80’s there was a LOT of disparity based on those things.

Pretending its all a mirage, thus the reaction has to be wrong is not the way to deal with it either, IMO. With respect, of course to the Chillymaster!

BKb

No. No. No. No. No. No NO!

This is EXACTLY what is wrong with the way complex issues are discussed nowadays. I NEVER said (or even implied, let alone believe!) that there was not real and costly bigotry involved in the lack of success of whatever group we are discussing. Of course there is.... and has been for that matter. It's nothing new. I merely stated that seeing these shortcomings as a product of bigotry/discrimination ALONE is not correct. The world is complex and the orthodoxy we are being subjected to denies that any complexity exists.

You read that I was denying real that discrimination exists in the workplace.

This is not an accident. You have been trained and conditioned to read it this way. You want to know why I do not and have not ever had a Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or whateverthefuck account? One, because I have never thought my life was so interesting that I needed to let the whole world in on what I had for breakfast. And two, because it trains people to NOT view the world in all its complexity.

Even stating that there are a lot of reasons for disparate results in life is considered denying that the officially approved reason is valid. At least according to the mob on Twitter or whatever. I grew up in the poorest county in the 1st or 2nd poorest state in the union... depending on the year. I know firsthand that a good bit of the problems in my neck of the woods are due to the same things that cause these same problems in other parts of the country. And no amount of brow beating is going to change my mind.

And I'll tell you something else. Looking at discrimination alone, to the exclusion of all else, is IMvHO doomed to fail. I've seen too many lily white areas of the nation fall prey to the same issues to believe that it is irrelevant. We have to look at all of these driving forces and try to address them in totality if we want to solve this.

Will

[Thumper]

I gots a question. Say I'm a business owner looking for a sales person who would be dealing directly with my customers in their (the customer's) own homes. Only two people respond to my ad with written applications.

Applicant "A" has 7-years related sales experience and a decent resume, but he decided to take a year off to "find himself" while spending his time and savings in a tattoo & body piercing parlor. He's now ready to get back to work and resume his sales career.

Applicant "B" just graduated h/s 2-years ago, attended college, but dropped out after 1/2 semester due to lack of interest and has spent the past year flipping burgers while trying to find a sale's career which is what he feels is his calling.

I call them on the phone to schedule face to face interviews. Both are polite, speak intelligently and show true interest in the job. Their starting salaries would be the same regardless of experience. Although applicant "A" has years of prior experience with good references, applicant "B" has VERY limited work experience, but the job I'm filling would include full training before either applicant would enter the field. "On paper" ... applicant "A" looks like the obvious choice and applicant "B" may want to spend a bit more time in the "real world" to get a little more experience under his belt.

My question is, after the personal interviews, if I hire the newbie, applicant "B" and turn away applicant "A", am I being discriminatory?

Applicant A:

11636

Applicant B:

11637

[BarryBobPosthole]

That’s not a real question. Being tatted up and pierced is not a gender nor is it a protected minority. You said your client met the public. Just put it in your job description ‘no visible tattoos’ if that is a problem.

And Willie, we can agree treating the symptom prolly isn’t the best way to cure anything without having to agree on the cause.
But I still think your ‘its too complicated for most people to understand’ is a cop out.

BKB

[airbud7]

Most Young People Entering the U.S. Workforce Lack Critical Skills Essential for Success

As the baby boom generation slowly exits the U.S. workplace, a new survey of leaders from a consortium of business research organizations finds the incoming generation sorely lacking in much needed workplace skills—both basic academic and more advanced “applied” skills.

But hey!....somebody's gotta flip them burgers.

I think I had the smartest blue-collar daddy in the world!...both me and my brother could weld, wire a house "breaker box and all" rebuild an engines, carpentry work and a lot more all before we even graduated high school...

Dam I miss my Daddy.

[Penguin]

Really? Because I truly did not mean it to be.

How's this instead?

If we as a nation do not take steps to build good paying jobs into our economy and rebuild the ladder of advancement that neoliberal economics has destroyed then nothing will help our young men and women to build good families and lives. It is one thing to say that one segment of our society is not getting their fair share of the pie. And we can certainly divvy up the proportions of the pie more equitably.

But what if the size of the pie for, say, the lower paid 2/3 of wage earners in the economy has been shrunk?

You'll get a bigger share of a much smaller pie in the end. That, if you ask me, is what we are facing. There are a slew of people from across the spectrum of the US that have seen their quality of life and standard of living decimated under the economic principles we adopted 40 years ago. And no signs of any turnaround in sight. I think we need to take this into account if we really want to help work on that well worn phrase "inequality".

That's one example. What about education? Family formation and stability? Access to quality health care? Drug and alcohol abuse? etc?

It's just my opinion, but I honestly believe that we HAVE to look at these issues. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe these issues only affect the neighborhoods that me and my fellow hillbillies inhabit. Maybe I am wrong to assume that when my brother tells me of how difficult it has been to recruit new members to his labor union because of a mandatory initial drug test that it is only our corner of Appalachia that is affected. Could be that the exodus of the best students from our local high school because of shitty instruction is solely a local issue? The food pantry in town has been completely run dry in the last couple months... coincidence?

Maybe I'm out in left field here. But I have to think that we've got some common ground here that we could all agree needs some work.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

‘A consortium of business research organizations’. Now there is a bunch of prizes.

Been hearing that same story for generations, AB. And yet, the jobs we’re sending offshore by the millions aren’t because the people in Bangalore are smarter, its because they’re cheaper! About four to one cheaper.

But you’re right; the biggest reason IMO of why demographics are the way they are is because of the situations people grew up in. Look up stats on how likely degrees and diplomas are for kids who grew up with parents without them. Its statistically much harder for those kids. And if a person grows up in a racist/baptist/catholic/poor/rich home then the chance are they and their offspring will be racist/baptist/catholic/poor/rich.

But not tattooed, For Thumper’s sake

BKB

[Penguin]

I do want to say that I do truly respect your opinions Posty. Don't think that any exasperation that creeps into my posts is solely due to you or directed at you.

Will

[Thumper]

That’s not a real question. Being tatted up and pierced is not a gender nor is it a protected minority. You said your client met the public. Just put it in your job description ‘no visible tattoos’ if that is a problem. BKB

I may be going off on a tangent, but I feel it IS a related tangent as the term "discrimination" was mentioned in the conversation. The example above is highly exaggerated, but in 1987 ('88 possibly?), I was investigated for basically the same issue noted in my post. I had a black applicant apply for a job as a diesel mechanic. The applicant had experience from work at a heavy equipment repair facility. A "seemingly" good fit. But, he had answered an ad I'd placed and showed up for a job interview. My secretary paged me and informed me she had seated him in my office and informed him I'd be right with him. When I walked in, he had a MacD's bag on my desk and was eating his frigging lunch! He LOOKED like a thug, acted like a thug, spoke like a thug and it became obvious during the interview that he really didn't want to be there and I felt he was simply satisfying the requirement to "look" for a job in order to keep his unemployment benefits.

I ended up hiring a young (white) kid directly from the General Motors Training Center and made him an apprentice, working with one of my veteran diesel mechanics until he got his feet on the ground. You can imagine my surprise when I was slapped with a discrimination suit! I don't know if "suit" is the proper term, but I ended up with an EEOC rep. sitting in my office wanting to know why I hadn't hired his "complainant"! Nothing came of it, but I had to waste a lot of time being interviewed and filling out paperwork.

Sometimes the lines of "discrimination" can become blurred and many employers have to walk on eggshells these days regarding their hiring practices.

[airbud7]

tidbit: My daddy built the best liquor stills in Burke County Georgia for black folks!....we went to a lot of outings in the Deep Woods and we were the only white folks!....Fun times!

racist!....not in my family.

[Thumper]

Hey, some of my best friends are black. ;)

[airbud7]

I voted for Tim Scott!....:D

[Thumper]

Oh yeah? Well I once DATED a black girl while I was in H/S! Beat THAT!

Well, her daddy was black anyway. Does that still count? ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

There is a reverse side of that coin too, Thumper. I had a manager that worked for me once that was gay and practically everyone he hired was too, until I put the brakes on it. Its just as discriminatory the other way. And their orientation in most cases meant more to that manager than their qualifications.

Its easy to say most shops ought to look a lot like the communities they are in, but the community might not, prolly doesn’t fit the demographics of the positions the companies need to fill. So we hold the companies responsible for an issue that actually belongs communities. I think that is what Willy is saying and I agree.
But in reality, you have to target minorities in some way to address the issue and that is often as bad as the problem. More schollies for minorities? People get pissed. More head start programs for minority and poor youngsters? Conservatives puke all over it. More health care for minorities and the poor? Same shit different day.
All of those things directly effect development of the job and personal skills to do higher paying jobs.
BKB

[Buckrub]

Apropos of very little............the "cheaper labor" that was supposed to occur via Call Centers in India, have turned out to be a hoax. They pulled an " American Trick". They lowballed the initial contract then, channeling their inner Walmart, they raised the price so that they are not saving a dang nickel. They ARE infuriating every single American that calls them. And yet..........not a single American company that I can find seems to have figured this out.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled argument.

[BarryBobPosthole]

EBITDA

[airbud7]

Lynn showed me this other point of view on the subject


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJnkP33j7rA

[Thumper]

EBITDA

But, isn't the Buckster saying the EBITDA would now be the same if the call centers were local? (not that I really believe expenses for Indian call centers actually match those in the U.S.)

[BarryBobPosthole]

its about a lot more than call centers. Companies world wide are outsourcing all kinds of processes to emerging countries. Its a big slash in the biggest operatingexpense of all, people.

Even as they bleed customers they are satisfied they did good for their company.

BKB

[Penguin]

I finally got the chance to watch the Terry Crewes snippet. An interesting guy. Always have a soft spot for another really big guy who is articulate. :p

It's an interesting point. And it applies to some of what I see around me. The reaction to what he said is why I maintain that we really do not want to have a discussion of these issues. It is very painful and uncomfortable and an honest discussion would be painful and uncomfortable to everyone involved. I know it is for me. So we shout down and destroy those who disagree with us. You may silence someone this way but I think in the end it comes at the cost of producing a massive amount of resentment. We need to relearn how to disagree and argue. We've lost the art of debate and negotiation in this country.

But in spite of how large and mean spirited the Twitter-sphere mob is I still believe in my heart that ~most~ people in the US are people of good will. I really believe that.

On a slightly different, but related, track I ran into something yesterday that I found totally fascinating. It is from a guy who I've read for years. We disagree on quite a few issues but he has a keen mind and makes some really interesting arguments. Ones that I've learned a good bit from by reading. This article was on what he terms the "liberal order" and most call globalisation. While I agree with quite a bit of his analysis, by the end of the article you have to wonder why in the hell he supports this way of doing things at all! I mean if going this far has hurt the rank and file so much why in the hell would you believe that taking the last fateful step would result in an economic Nirvana.

Here's the link: https://aeon.co/essays/can-the-liberal-order-be-transformed-by-global-government

Now you tell me, do you see similarities there? Otherwise intelligent people who just never seem to sit down and do an honest analysis of exactly why they are defending (or attacking) the status quo. What they are actually fighting for. I mean at this point a lot of the arguments are no longer up for debate. On a lot of issues the jury is no longer out and the verdict can be made by looking at the results of the experiment. But we're stuck in the final arguments phase and seem to be in a time loop where we are making the same arguments decade after decade.

Food for thought.

Will

[Thumper]

That looks really interesting Willy. I'd read a short amount, get interrupted, then read a little more, get interrupted, etc. So, I'm going to put it aside until things settle down this evening and start all over from the beginning so I can maintain some semblance of continuity. What I've read so far just continues sucking me in, so the interruptions have been frustrating.

[Buckrub]

Why? You asked "Why?".

I have about decided that can't be answered any more. Folks who ask that are having trouble understanding some of the world around them because it's not conforming to their life's events. I always asked that. Lately, it seems to just add stress.

I haven't made it one full day yet since the end of April without breaking down. Most times, I don't know 'why', other than the obvious. But why then? Nothing out of the ordinary happened. I just fall apart. Wife is same way. And I think the biggest reason is that there IS NO "why" answer.

World is coming apart. The world I grew up in, anyway. A week from today I'll be 72 years old. I never imagined that happening. It has been a great run. But oh me, the failures! Oh how many! Same as everyone else, probably. But that doesn't seem to be any solace. You asked WHY everything is about race or sex. I assume you meant gender. I don't think it's about either one. I think it's about selfishness.

I think............or it appears.........that there is a whole sea of folks, a whole SLEW of humanity, that never had to do too much to get by. So, they feel 'put upon' if the slightest thing happens bad to them. They can't stand it. And not one time, not ever, is it THEIR fault. Nothing is their fault. And that's the prime trait of a selfish person. Who is the most selfish person you've ever known? Why, it's your kids when they were 3 years old, right? Or maybe 4, maybe 5. NEVER their fault. NEVER giving in to share. FIGHTING to get 100% of everything. NON stop. Right? You know that's right. Now WHY are they that way? I dunno. Cause they're humans, and young ones, and have no life events yet to base their beliefs on, most likely.

So, when that same trait is exhibited by a whole group of adults, you have to think "Why". But if you really think on it, the answer is the same about the 4 year old. Just cause. Just because. Just because they are young and selfish and demand someone else be responsible for their bad actions, and someone else give them whatever they want.

The really crazy "why" though, is WHY are the real adults going along almost 100%? WHY is every single yahoo on the planet acquiescing and appeasing these children?

Guess what? Every person in my 'realm of reality' believes the Brooks killing was justified. Cops are good! Well, except for Chauvin. But I'll tell you what. I think Rolfe is guilty of at least manslaughter. Man had a taser, big yellow thing. Rolfe KNEW it was a taser, he's not blind. When it went off, it is expended. Rolfe has his own Taser but fired it prematurely! At that point, why shoot the man? They have his car!! They have his address. He is not going to flee to Argentina. He's easy to catch. OH, by the way, the "DUI" they were charging him with in the first place? They can't prove he drove! He was sitting in a car. Any lawyer would laugh at that charge. So I don't think it's justified. And I'd bet any of y'all that THINK you know me are amazed I think that.

My bigger question is not "Why"? My bigger question is, Who videoed that whole thing? How did they know to video it all? Bodycam??? Sorry, that doesn't explain it, because both cops are in the picture of the struggle. Wendy's security cam of the chase? Give me a break! Someone videoed it. You can see them at the end of the video, after Brooks has been shot, moving their vehicles (reason unknown, maybe to allow room for ambulance).

So to me the bigger questions in all this are how did Aubrey's shooting, Floyd's shooting, Brooks' shooting, ALL get a clear video of good length??? Not a single of the 50 killings a weekend in Chicago are on video. Why are all these three? You can say anything you want, but that is the part that doesn't add up to me. Like a bunch of mouth breather dumbutts all comment on these things like it's normal as heck for 3 World-Changing Events to be recorded in totality. Geez.

Not being tin foil hat, but it's clear there are two major factions in America that both have opposite agendas. And it's also clear that both factions have embedded in them some folks who will do any nefarious deed to further their agenda. And danged if 3 similar events didn't happen within days of each other, to really help the agenda of one of those sides.

I don't know the answer to anything. I know I'm glad I'm old and I won't have long to put up with this. But a very fine culture that built a lot of good things is now history. Gone. And a lot of false accusations are being thrown around as if they are a solid basis for destroying it. Meanwhile, we don't have a SINGLE leader that is willing to take action necessary to even attempt to fix these things. Meanwhile, Insurrectionists occupy a major city, and nothing is done. Looters, some in $300,000 SUV's, destroyed another major city, all on live tv. Mobs that had a LOT of white people in them burned down minority businesses in the name of abolishing racism! Think on that one.

Makes a person just angry. Ready to do something. Makes you mad at a few cops who somehow, single-handedly destroyed your civilization. But when the realization hits that there isn't anything that you can do, then about all you can be all day is morose. It's over, you know. You tried, but it's over.

Just a terrible, terrible thing.

[Thumper]

Well crap! I just finished a long reply to your post Buckster. I had picked out specific parts of your post and commented on each one (in agreement with you), then gave personal examples and observations backing up what you wrote. I hit the "post reply" button (or I "think" I did) and the post disappeared! I'm on my laptop in a hotel room waiting for Lynn to get ready for breakfast, so I may have hit the wrong button or sumpin'. (delete??)

I may try commenting again later, but we're about to head out for the day.

[Penguin]

I hear you Bill.

It is a very confusing and anxious time for all of us. If you aren't feeling this way I don't think you are paying attention. :)

What makes it easier for me is that I have accepted that this is not random. There are a lot of ruinous policies and decisions that we, as a nation, have made in the last 40 or 50 some years that are coming to a head. You've got a lot of people that are disgusted and mad as hell that they are being left behind. Their (our) elected leaders are bought and paid for and they know that going to the ballot box isn't going to change that. They also know that the bright shiny future and all of its toys might actually come to pass... but that bright future and its shiny toys are not for them. Those are reserved for the people raining ruination on them.

This is no more "random" than the economic disaster of 2008-2009. If you ask me it is a continuation of the exact same process. We've got an economic engine that has thrown a rod. We've got a hapless and feckless ruling elite. We've got.... I could go on for 10 pages. Short story, not only was this situation foreseeable it was foreseen. Hell I can remember sitting on the porch with my dad and he predicted a lot of what we see right now. 30 years ago.

But what keeps my head up is that I honestly believe that most people in this country (hell, on this earth) are people with good hearts. Flawed, just like me. Sometimes dangerously so... just like me. But good people if they are treated right and approached correctly. But until we have a national consensus it won't matter. Right now we don't have this. Not on what we were. Not on what we are. And certainly not on what we want to be. Until we do reach this consensus I don't think we can address these problems an anything but a haphazard way. We have to decide what it is we want to be and then take steps to get there. Which means change. Which means most of those who have led us down the wrong path have to be relieved of duty. Which means this might take a while. Maybe the rest of my life. Or longer. Or not...

So, I don't worry too much about it. I'll try to stay employed since I absolutely love my job. And I'll try to keep the family homestead/farm going since I absolutely love it. And I'll try to be a good family member since I love them all to death.

Will

[DeputyDog]

I want to add a couple of points regarding Bucky’s post.

As far as the DUI charge, I can only speak for Indiana for sure, but here the vehicle does not have to be in motion for a person to be charged for DUI. In Indiana the charge is actually called Operating While Intoxicated and a person can be considered “operating” a vehicle as long as they are in the driver’s seat and the vehicle is running.

In regards to the Taser. I was a Taser instructor for close to 15 years. Tasers fire a cartridge that expels two small darts attaches to the Taser by thin wires which conduct the electric current. These cartridges are only able to be fired once, but many departments use Taser that has attachments that allow for extra cartridges to be carried on the Taser. In some cases up to three extra cartridges per Taser. Having been shot by a Taser and also using one on other people whether in training situations or in the field on “bad guys” I can attest to a Taser’s ability to temporarily incapacitate an individual. With that being said, officers are taught that it is a lethal force situation when a person is preparing to use a Taser against them.
So, it is possible that there were other cartridges available to be used against the officers involved, and even if not, in a stressful situation like that, it is very possible for a person to lose track of how many times that Taser had been used just like it’s difficult for officers to give an accurate count of how many shots were fired from the handgun.


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