Vaccine Question for You Thinkers

[BarryBobPosthole]

Was looking at the local paper and they were talking about the Rona vaccine. They were interviewing the Head guy at St John Ascension which is one of our biggest hospitals in Tulsa. He said when the vaccine came available that the medical staff at St John would have the choice to get it.
I’m sure you get the part that made my antennae twitch. Choice.
This is gonna open up a major can of worms I think, about vaccines and public health. If there is any place that I’d assume covid vaccines would be mandatory it’d be among medical staff. I’ve not heard any stories yet of whether employers will/will be able to made covid vaccines mandatory for employees. It will be especially interesting to see whT they do about public schools, which IMO should be the next priority. Teachers, staff, etc. But what about students? Mandatory?
For some odd reason you can’t swing a cat in Oklahoma without smacking an antivaxxer. I suspect thos is going to another one of ‘those’ issues.
Here we go, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory!
I don’t know what the number of required vaccinations is to achieve herd immunity but that’s a long ways off.
What do you guys think? Mandatory or no? Is it constitutional to be mandatory?

BKB

[DeputyDog]

I think that there would be a lot of constitutional issues with making it mandatory.

There are also some religious groups who oppose the use of aborted fetal tissue and cells in medical research and those types of tissues are sometimes used in vaccine testing and development, so they might refuse any vaccine developed using such tissues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[quercus alba]

I think everyone should have the choice, but the question is what choice? This goes far wider than just personal health, it affects the economy, our school systems, the military, our health care system and even the political landscape so it's not as easy as don't tread on my rights. Some people have the mistaken idea that freedom means no restrictions but we've never had that kind of freedom. The bible itself teaches that God instituted government and we are to be subject to the laws of the land. Many years ago I had an insurance policy that required me to wear a seat belt or the first thousand dollars of a medical bills were my responsibility if I were involved in a wreck. Maybe something along those lines where if you refused vaccination offered by your insurance then you'd be responsible for the first $25,000 if you developed Covid.

there's no answer that is going to please everyone

[BarryBobPosthole]

It still floors me that a major hospital won’t require all of its workers to be vaccinated. My daughter starts her chemo back up for 12 more rounds starting Monday and my wife and I will be tag teaming as caregivers. That’ll last upthrough May. You can bet that’s a question we’ll ask CTCA when we get there next week.

And I go back to liability auto insurance. Its required by law to protect the public from accidents that could ruin them financially. As if covid doesn’t or couldn’t. How can it be lawful for one and not the other?

BKB

[Thumper]

Yep, like flu shots, you have the nutbag religious groups who refuse to inoculate their kids. I don't know what the answer is there. The mandatory thing is a slippery slope I think and reeks of communism and/or dictatorship. Vaccines are normally required for kids going into school or daycare, but I have no clue what's mandatory or what sort of wavers are allowed. To make it even more complicated, those requirements are set by the states, so there are no set rules. I don't have an answer.

That said, Lynn and I have been discussing this very same thing at length. She's on-board for getting vaccinated the minute it's available to her. Normally, I'd be right there with her, but I've been hesitant to jump on-board. TBH, I'd most likely get vaccinated right away, but for the first time in my life, I've got concerns. I've always been one to put a TON of trust in our government, but this vaccine has been rushed through without many of the checks and balances we normally require for new medications. When I went into the Army, I walked through a literal assembly line for inoculations ... we'd stop between two medics, each would give us a shot in the arm, we'd step forward a few steps, and a couple more medics would shoot us up with something else. Heck, I don't even think I knew what they were giving me or how many shots I received in that line, but I had zero problem accepting whatever they were dishing out.

Heck, even with FDA approval, we still run into hiccups. I'm a walking time-bomb right now because during all my surgeries, the doc installed an IVC filter in the vein carrying blood to my heart. It was the "thing to do" back then. Now they're killing people because they're falling apart, pieces are rupturing veins and/or flow into your heart and you're dead. I asked to have it removed, but the process is more dangerous than leaving it in and keeping my fingers crossed. Heck, there are probably hundreds of cases in process for side effects or injuries from defective drugs and medical devices as we speak, all of which were thoroughly vetted before being made available to the public. How safe are these new vaccines going to be since all the hoops, hurdles and testing processes have been waved? I can envision what could happen 5 years from now when one of these big pharma companies say, "Oooops!"

Anyway, those are my personal fears right now, but I have a feeling I'll throw caution to the wind and be one of the first in line to get the vaccine. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation right now.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Its kind of funny, but people who’ve been in the military are more naturally suspicious of shots. I remember getting those appointment cards to go get the next flu shot. Seems we were the test cases for new flu vaccines. It was an Article 15 for not getting them.
Its also a fact that the cocktail of shots they gave soldiers on their way to Iraq is what caused many of the MS cases they are seeing in Iraq war vets. One of them is in my family. So the suspicion has merit, Jim!

And for the record, its not just religious reasons people object to vaccinations. Jim Carrey and his ilk have awhole following of antivaxxers based on nothing but conspiracy theories.

And on edit, when I went to the PI while working for Verizon I had to go get a series of shots, but I can’tremember if it was mandatory or not.
BKB

[quercus alba]

What we really need is an idiot vaccine

[Thumper]

Yeah, P-hole, whenever we travel, I check the vaccines required for whatever country I'll be visiting and make sure I'm up to date. I also check to see what vaccines are recommended due to current conditions and usually get them if I'll be in an affected area. I normally don't have a problem with being vaccinated for ANYTHING ... it's just never been a big deal to me.

I'm not sure why I'm wavering on this one. I KNOW I'll get vaccinated as soon as my availability comes up, but it's the first time in my life I've really THOUGHT about the consequences. I think the positives outweigh the negatives right now, I just hope that doesn't change down the road.

Yeah, I put the antivaxxers in the same league as most of Hollywood and don't pay a bit of attention to them.

[Penguin]

This vaccine operates a bit differently than previous ones.... I'm not sure long term harmful effects can be ruled out. I'm also not sure at all that they will do anything but help us out. But no long term tests makes me antsy. Chalk it up to a career filled with the necessity of testing the hell out of something before it is allowed on the track or on the street.

I guess I'll be like everyone else and do what I'm told. For a lot of us who have a ton of face to face interaction it may be what allows us to resume a semi-normal life again.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

If’n I was you I’d stay the hell away from VA hospitals and clinics for any reason until you do get vaccinated. Its freeso no reason to go to the VA. Hereabouts the VA facilities have shamefully high covid rates.

BKB

[Thumper]

But no long term tests makes me antsy. Chalk it up to a career filled with the necessity of testing the hell out of something before it is allowed on the track or on the street. Will

You hit the nail on the head as to my way of thinking Chilly. Maybe it's that Engineering gene we share. :huh

Right now I feel like it's one of those, "Well, this looks like it may work ... let's put it out there and see what happens!" If it breaks, he hits the wall and doesn't make it, we have plenty more drivers looking for a ride and they can test our new, improved version!

[Penguin]

That's a beautiful analogy Jim.

"You win some, you lose some... you wreck some."

Will

[Thumper]

If’n I was you I’d stay the hell away from VA hospitals and clinics for any reason until you do get vaccinated. Its free so no reason to go to the VA. Hereabouts the VA facilities have shamefully high covid rates. BKB

It's like getting into Ft. Knox here P-hole. My "not-so-important" appointments have been postponed, but I have some necessary appointments that are pretty important. I've been to two of them recently (just had an ultrasound last week) and have a CT Scan this coming Monday. I won't list the precautions they're taking at "my" VA hospital, but they're serious about this and you're all but put into a plastic bubble before entering. The precautions and requirements are here if you want to dig through them:

https://www.tampa.va.gov/patients/prepare.asp

And they're dead serious about all of it. It's a PITA, but I appreciate knowing they aren't fooling around. As for "shamefully high Covid rates", I've seen no reports of it here.

[quercus alba]

[QUOTE=Thumper;126995] (just had an ultrasound last week)

That confirms what a lot of us have been thinking for a long time:huh

[Thumper]

I was gonna surprise youse dufes, but the cat's out'ta the bag now. It's a BOY! :thumbsup

[Hombre]

I'm with most of what has been said here, mandatory is a slippery slope. And, for someone who had the rona I won't be jumping in line to get a vaccine anytime soon. I suppose if it had taken me more than a day and a half to kick, and my symptoms weren't comparable to seasonable allergies I'd be a bit more apt to jump in line. But if I'm comparing unknown long term affects and what I think my bodies ability is to fight it off I'll go with the later. I know, I know CNN told me I'll die if I get it...I'll still take my chances.

If I was high risk I'd likely see this differently, hence I think there should be a choice.

[BarryBobPosthole]

https://www.aarp.org/home-family/voices/veterans/info-2020/coronavirus-visitor-restriction.html

[Chicken Dinner]

Nobody gets on a plane or walks into a school without a vaccination card. Your choice on whether you want to travel or get an education. Simple.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BarryBobPosthole]

interesting reading on mandatory vaccinations in our history.

BKB

https://www.npr.org/2011/04/05/135121451/how-the-pox-epidemic-changed-vaccination-rules

[Hombre]

interesting reading on mandatory vaccinations in our history.

BKB

https://www.npr.org/2011/04/05/135121451/how-the-pox-epidemic-changed-vaccination-rules

A 25-30% death rate seems like a reasonable # to make vaccinations mandatory.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Here’s one thing I hope I don’t read about: NBA or NFL or MLB players gettingthe vaccine beforeits generally available.

Surely not.

BKB

[Thumper]

Or Democrats! :poke

[BarryBobPosthole]

Bite me.

BKB

[Thumper]

https://www.aarp.org/home-family/voices/veterans/info-2020/coronavirus-visitor-restriction.html

I wasn't aware of that P-hole. Of course, I haven't watched more than 10-mins of news since the election (my choice).

But what's odd is, the article mentions "Tampa AREA" hospitals, but only mentions Gainesville. What's even odder (is that a word? Spellcheck didn't catch it) is, I looked at the cities mentioned and something stuck out like a sore thumb. Almost EVERY one of those cities have Democratic Mayors. I don't even have a clue whether that affects the V.A. itself, as I would consider them Federal (?), but it's the cities with the highest incidence of Covid cases in regards to those particular hospitals. It started looking so weird to me, I scanned through the article and jotted down every city mentioned, then Googled their mayors. I don't want to get into politics, but man-o-man, I have to admit it jumped out at me immediately, but I really have no clue what it means. Here's what I came up with.

New Jersey - Dem. Governor
E. Orange New Jersey - Dem. Mayor
Indianapolis - Dem. Mayor
D.C. - Dem. Mayor
Reno - Independent Mayor
Puerto Rico - (ALL) New Progressive or Dem.
Chicago - Dem. Mayor
NYC - Dem. Mayor
L.A. - Dem. Mayor
Tampa - Dem. Mayor
Miami - Rep. Mayor
Boston - Dem. Mayor
Minneapolis - Dem. Mayor
Cleveland - Dem. Mayor
San Antonio - Non-Partisan Mayor
Orlando - Dem. Mayor
Houston - Dem. Mayor
Atlanta - Dem. Mayor
Phoenix - Dem. Mayor
Gainesville - Dem. Mayor
Corpus Christi - Rep. Mayor
Milwaukee - Dem. Mayor

I honestly don't know if that means squat ... but it looks really weird to me. :huh

[BarryBobPosthole]

Whenever you get to having a point let me know.

BKB

[BarryBobPosthole]

Whenever you get to having a point let me know.

BKB

[Thumper]

My point is, you STILL haven't fixed your double-posting issue! :wink

Seriously, if the cities were governed by Republicans, don't you think the Dems would say that's the reason the Covid rates are so high in those particular cities? Maybe that's my point. :stirthepot

It just jumped out at me as I read your article. That’s all. It may be relevant, it may not, but it’s my job as an official sd’er to point it out.

My work is done here. Next!

[Hombre]

Nobody gets on a plane or walks into a school without a vaccination card. Your choice on whether you want to travel or get an education. Simple.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm ok with planes as long as a private business makes that decision.

[Chicken Dinner]

Public schools have required vaccinations now. Why should this be different?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hombre]

I'm actually ok with schools to I just typed quick..... Schools or an option to learn online. More of the point was any commercial business has the right to chose whether they should or shouldn't require a vaccination card. I think the market will help them determine that. On things like mandatory shutting down of businesses, and watching people I know lose their livelihood, I'm not sure the government should have a say in that.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I am libertarian enough to agree with you on that sentiment Hombre, and ornery enough to point out that government currently picks winners and losers all the damn time. Then they stand at heir podiumsand claim to be free market believers.
If its good enough for big business to be helped out, it oughta be good enough for little guys too. Especially when most of the big guys spit in your eye.

I’m not advocating for mandatory vaccines, butI do think businesses are within their rights to.

BKB

[Hombre]

we agree businesses are within their rights, and that the gov picks winners and losers......I'm just against the second one. Give me some credit here as I age I have to pick the Curmudgeon I'm going to be..I've chosen the get the government off my lawn

[BarryBobPosthole]

Good thinking!

BKB

[DeputyDog]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201205/3f51f578aa07d20125430132de72cb90.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Thumper]

That's some sick shit right there.

[BarryBobPosthole]

WTF?

[DeputyDog]

On a serious note, I just read an article that my local hospital will be one of the first in the area to receive the vaccine and the first recipients will be healthcare workers at the highest risk for exposure.

The hospital also will not be requiring employees to get the vaccine.

As executive director of outpatient services at Cameron Memorial, Aldred said unlike the flu vaccine that's been tested for years, he doesn't think any health care or other employer will require workers to get the coronavirus vaccine because it's so new.

Here is the quote from the article.

"We want our staff members to be fully educated with up to date information on the vaccinations and on the vaccine, specifically the COVID vaccine, and to allow them to make their own choice for themselves and in the future for their families, on whether or not they're going to receive the vaccine," he said.”

This just kind of struck me that even people in the healthcare field may not be sure of the safety of the vaccine due to the hurried development and small amount of testing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[quercus alba]

The next question is, will you voluntarily take it when offered?

[BarryBobPosthole]

DD, that was the same question I had when I read the story about the Oklahoma med workers having a choice.

It sure doesn’t inspire confidence. It will be interesting to see what my doc says I should do. When my daughter tested positive during the summer my wife and I were checking into getting tested. My doc told me he wouldn’t send me to get tested unless I had symptoms, and if I had symptoms we’d know I had it so no reason to get tested at all.

Yeah, I think I need to hunt for a new doc.

We both plan to get the shot as soon as its available for us.

BKB

[BarryBobPosthole]

It’ll be interesting to see if this holds up. Talk about your slippery slopes.

BKb

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/03/us/hawaii-san-francisco-coronavirus.html

[airbud7]

Just don't drink the water....you'll be fine.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Are we in Mexico yet?

[Thumper]

It’ll be interesting to see if this holds up. Talk about your slippery slopes. BKb

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/03/us/hawaii-san-francisco-coronavirus.html

Well, kinda-sorta related as these people are boarding commercial flights. Here's what just happened in Thailand.

More than 80 Thais who worked at a hotel in Myanmar at the centre of a recent COVID-19 outbreak sneaked back into Thailand illegally and avoided quarantine.

The management of the 1G1-7 Hotel, which is located in Tachileik just 1.5 kilometres from the official border checkpoint at Mae Sai, said it employed 180 Thai women. The National News Bureau of Thailand on Friday reported that 84 of the women have returned to Thailand, mostly via illegal natural crossings along the porous border. Many of the women are understood to have skipped the mandatory quarantine procedures for anyone entering Thailand.

At the time of publishing, Thailand has linked at least 14 COVID-19 cases to the hotel, including three cases in Chiang Mai, seven in Chiang Rai and one each in Bangkok, Phayao, Phichit and Ratchaburi.

On Friday, Thailand’s Disease Control Department confirmed one of the cases was that of a 51-year woman, from Singburi province, who travelled on the same flight as a Thai worker, who snuck back to Mae Sai district of Chiang Rai from Tachilek. The worker had taken the same flight to Don Mueang as the woman from Singburi. Also on Friday, health officials in Chiang Mai confirmed that a 32 year old local man who had recently returned to the city after being employed as a DJ at the 1G1-7 Hotel had tested positive for COVID-19.

Earlier this week, Deputy Prime Minister and Public Health Minister Anutin Charnvirakul said the full force of the law will be used against those who returned to Thailand illegally, evaded quarantine and caused the recent spike in cases in the country.

Describing the illegal returnees as “selfish”, Mr Anutin said: “That should not have happened. The selfishness of a few people troubles many other Thai people. Although immigration is being restricted, the group of people sneaked through the border at will. They violated laws, “I ordered provincial health officials through disease control committees chaired by provincial governors to file complaints to take all possible legal action against the group of people. We are about to reopen the country but now measures must be reviewed.”

[johnboy]

I won't be in any hurry to volunteer as a test subject for a very rushed vaccine implementation but thankfully our illustrious and much loved and respected Prime Minister, The Honourable Skippy McFucknutts Trudeau, has botched this so badly that we may have access to vaccines by Sept. next year. What a man!

Seriously though, I no longer believe anything that the politicians, media or 'specialists' tell me about anything. I'll wait, watch and see what happens. Trying to make this mandatory will cause serious problems.

[Chicken Dinner]

https://apple.news/AktjsZgBISnSsuDFYcVWZsw


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[airbud7]

No one will die from the flu this winter, only from covid19...follow the money.

[DeputyDog]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201208/00f2669aab77861fe311ef1a415caacb.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chicken Dinner]

[emoji13]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BarryBobPosthole]

notworthy

[airbud7]

12084

[BarryBobPosthole]

Could be!

BKB

[Thumper]

I’ve been wondering about that all through this process and have wondered since the beginning if there have been some back room deals made. Who would actually be responsible? The manufacturer? Or the government for waiving many of the checks and balances normally required? Have there been assurances from the government that since many of the hoops and hurdles were removed, that the manufacturers will not be liable for claims in the future? Much like the VA system. When I had my medical problems, I consulted numerous attorneys. They were ALL ready to go for the jugular and had dollar signs in their eyes, that is, UNTIL I mentioned the surgery was performed at the V. A. Then all of a sudden, they were extremely busy and told me I’d be better off going elsewhere. I finally gave up when I was told it was because the VA had a cap on malpractice claims which is (I think) $100,000. Law firms would only get excited if there were about three more zeros attached to that number. I have to wonder if there’s a waiver hidden in the fine print when you sign the release to get the vaccine, that it’s the responsibility of the “customer” and the administrator or manufacturer is not liable for any possible complications in the future? I just can’t imagine the drug companies who rushed the development, pushed through by the government, wouldn’t cover their asses in some way. Or is it ALL the money to be made? Like the Ford Pinto exploding gas tanks fiasco years ago, Ford knew of the problem, but did nothing about it because the profits would more than cover any eventual claims.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Why the hell do you think Moscow Mitch is stonewalling covid aid until the government gives big business immunity from liability? Teflon Don wants all the credit for everything but no responsibility for anything.

BKB

[Thumper]

TBH, I've been taking a hiatus from the news since the election and am behind on what all is going on. I just reached a burn-out stage and was sick of it. That's hard to say for an ex-news junkie. They were simply my random thoughts and it appears, my personal non-issue is actually an existing issue. Thanks for the update. :thumbsup

[DeputyDog]

Why the hell do you think Moscow Mitch is stonewalling covid aid until the government gives big business immunity from liability? Teflon Don wants all the credit for everything but no responsibility for anything.

BKB

It’s a good thing that Beijing Biden is gonna be in charge now so all of the worlds problems will be fixed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[quercus alba]

This one hell of a mess we've got our self into Ollie

[BarryBobPosthole]

Nobody has ever claimed the world’s problems will be fixed with Biden in the Oval Office. Its became pretty pbvious though how far over the line Republican politicians will go to overthrow a legitimate election.

Explain to me how this behavior and talk of secession and blasting our election process like its the same as Venezuela’s isn’t more unpatriotic than some fucker kneeling during the anthem at a BALL GAME.

I’m sick ofthe double standard. And the majority of Americans are too.

Elections have consequences. That’s what it means.
BKB

[Thumper]

Double standards? You mean like blaming the Russians, wanting to do away with the “unfair” electoral college, wanting to add additional Justices to the Suprene Court, wanting to expand the coyntry to 52 states by adding totally LIBERAL D. C. and Puerto Rico. What’s that old saying about not throwing stones when living in glass houses?

FWIW, I equate shit-head athletes kneeling during the National Anthem to the scum-buckets who burn the flag. Fuck those grossly overpaid whiney assholes.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I’m wondering when Biden has said any of those things. If you can find them I’d be interested in seeing them. You’re just chanting.

BKB

[Thumper]

Yet even though Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden is a backer of statehood, as are top Democrats in the House and Senate and some Florida Republicans, it’s unclear how much of a priority Puerto Rico would be if Democrats take control of the White House and Congress. The drive is complicated by a separate but often-paired push for statehood for the District of Columbia. http://https://wtop.com/dc/2020/10/push-for-puerto-rico-statehood-has-myriad-political-implications-including-for-dc-area/amp/

Biden Punts on Expanding the Supreme Court, Calling for a Panel to Study Changes

The Democratic presidential nominee said he would appoint a bipartisan commission to examine whether an overhaul is needed to the judiciary and to make recommendations.
http://https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/22/us/politics/biden-supreme-court-packing.amp.html

I don’t have time to validate any of this as we’re headed out the door right now. Some of the b/s can simply be rolled into the general Liberal agenda. You asked. Run with it. Catch ya’ later.

[johnboy]

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[airbud7]

12086

[Buckrub]

The deeply held beliefs that originated simply from a strong desire for the other side to be wrong, never cease to amaze me. If crazy folks can change any, then I've mellowed enough to know better who to be mad at, and why. But this crap has too much smoke to have no fire, and not enough fire to justify the amount of smoke. If I figure it out, I might write a book. Or go fishing. I'll decide later, today I'm going to just sit here.

[DeputyDog]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201214/ff78441bbc103ed04996e5684f18cdd9.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Penguin]

I hear you DD... and in the book wasn't the lone human left on earth considered an evil mass murderer by those who had the disease. :)

Will

[DeputyDog]

Yep, because of all the testing he did on the infected to try to find the cure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BarryBobPosthole]

Well, this answers one question we weretalking about. With as much skepticism about the vaccine as we’re hearing about, this prolly won’t take long to make it to the Supremes.
BKB

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/us/eeoc-employers-coronavirus-mandate.html

[airbud7]

3 more Alaska health workers have adverse reactions to COVID-19 vaccine, bringing total to 5
https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/2020/12/18/3rd-alaska-health-care-worker-experiences-adverse-reaction-to-covid-19-vaccine/

[BarryBobPosthole]

Yep, I don’t think there’s much to it.

BKB