A ... probably long ... Thump rant (sorry).

[Thumper]

Today is Lynn's birthday and I presented her with the news that I'd met a goal I'd set for myself about 3 years ago ... BEFORE this Covid crap which I really expected to sabotage my efforts, especially since Lynn lost her job last March. But, through planning, sacrifice and perseverance, we became DEBT FREE as of this past Saturday (2/06/2021), a date I've had written down and hanging right beside my desk since drafting my plan. For a bit of perspective, I haven't been debt free since August of 1989! That's when I bought this house as well as started my own business and built it from the ground up! (in the meantime, going into substantial debt) I think starting a business was the scariest thing I've ever done. During the time since then, I faced a major setback right after starting my business and considered bankruptcy, but decided to suck it up and work through the hurdles. I had a philosophy, I'd pay my bills FIRST ... and if anything was left over, we'd eat. Also, during that time, Lynn lost her job due to her company relocating to Wis-frigging-consin. They asked her to relocate with them, but of course we declined. (I had a house and a business here, how would that work?) So, it was job search time as the bills marched on.

She found a job that would work for us and went back to work. The problem was, with the new job, it took 90-days before her company insurance would kick in and the company insurance she'd had previously expired at the end of the month she lost the job. Needless to say, although she'd never been in the hospital in her life, and hasn't since that time, she experienced a medical emergency during the time of the insurance lapse. She was in for 3-days ... no surgery ... nothing but tests ... and they never did find the problem! (her blood pressure had spiked to an astronomical level and they had trouble getting it back down) To this day, we don't know what happened. Then it became time for MY P/B to spike ... when I received a frigging $87,000 hospital bill! I had to take out a loan to pay it.

Then the 2008 recession reared it's ugly head. Since my business was severely affected ... no, scratch that, I ended up LOSING my business due my services not being essential to my customers. They could put my services off until the economy got back to normal, but MY bills could NOT be put off. I lost my business and had to start driving a dang truck to pay the bills. THEN ... MY major medical problem kicked me in the teeth and I was forced into retirement, having to rely on Social Security LONG before I'd planned to go that route. We made some MAJOR adjustments to our lifestyle, but I stuck to my promise ... pay my bills, THEN eat ... IF there was anything left for groceries.

Now, enter Covid. Lynn lost her job immediately (March) since her industry (hotel) got slammed pretty hard from the get-go. The problem is, her particular company turned out to be a bunch of worthless rat-bastards once times got tough. They screwed her out of 7-weeks vacation pay. They said they'd pay it IF she were to be rehired before the end of the year. WTF? She'd worked for them for 15 years and they kicked her in the teeth when she was already on the ground. Needless to say, the end of the year came and went. When she checked to see what her status was, they said her particular job had been "eliminated"! Good-bye 7 weeks of pay.

But my debt payment plan? No matter how tough things got, I managed to stay on track. I made adjustments as necessary and even started buying other people's junk to peddle on eBay to help make ends meet. Through all the hiccoughs ... or hiccups for youse unwashed dufes ... I never lost sight of my goal ... February 6, 2021. I actually paid cash for my truck ... a 2016 model. My final house payment was in August 2019 ... a 30 year mortgage and through thick and thin, I never missed ONE payment. Where does Feb. 6. 2021 come in? That's the day I made the final payment on Lynn's "hospital loan". As of this past Saturday, all we have is our normal monthly expenses.

Oh, but in typical Thump post fashion, the above is not even the subject of my post. What set me off this morning is, I woke up and listened to the local news on tv before climbing out of bed. A commercial came on urging people in heavy debt to call company XYZ as they can make those debts "go away"! Printed across the screen was a large banner proclaiming, "Live Happier, Debt Free"!! Well shit! What I see is, "buy all your toys, have a blast, max out those credit cards until there's no way in Hell you'll ever be able to pay them off without making major sacrifices to your party-time lifestyle .... and we'll make those debts go away!!" Such a deal huh? The problem I have is, I am the one (and YOU) who will be paying that debt off! Now, this has nothing to do with the pandemic, I realize people are having rough times, these ads have been playing for many years ... long before Covid. Needless to say, I got out of bed irritated this morning. Why should I have to make all the sacrifices and eating beans so YOU (you = subjects of the ads) slackers can continue eating lobster? I don't get it.

That brings me up to the Biden plan to forgive student loans. This is sticky to even talk about because I know it will be a windfall to some here (if it happens) ... and TBH, if it applied to me, I would jump all over it. IMHO, if it's made available, it would be stupid to let principles get in the way and not take advantage of it. The point is, I also went to college and WORKED to pay for it! I hear all the crying, bitching and moaning about students having this student loan debt hanging over their heads the minute they graduate as being the end of the world. Now correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the point of getting this higher education to make more money once you enter the workforce? So the kid who could NOT afford college gets bumped into a lower paying field than the ones who went to college, then had the loan "forgiven"? Where is the fairness in that? If the kid who couldn't afford college had known he could have gone for "free", do you think he'd have still decided to work at McD's? I remember a few years back, I celebrated with a buddy of mine who'd just witnessed his daughter graduate and earn her degree. I remember mentioning how it's now time to pay for all that education but he told me it was already covered. When both his son and daughter were born, he and his wife started a "college fund" for them. He said no matter how tough times got, they ALWAYS deposited into that fund. BOTH kids now have their degrees due to the hard work and sacrifices their parents made all those years. Again, I don't mean to step on any toes here, but maybe it's just that I grew up during the "if you want something, WORK for it 'cause nobody's gonna give it to you era". These days, everyone thinks things should be handed to them and there are no consequences if you fuck up and buy more than you can afford.

Rant over. It's Lynn's birthday, so we're headed to Tampa for the day. I have a doc appt. at 11:00, then we'll have a nice meal to celebrate her first "debt free" birthday in 32 years! :thumbsup

[BarryBobPosthole]

We pay our bills and our taxes that we owe as well. I think forgiving debt that people knowingly signed up for only encourages more people to get in over their head thinking somebody will come along and bail them out.
Its just my opinion, but I think if the president wants to stimulate the economy then spend the time money needed to fix the root causes of why higher education is so unaffordable that they have to get the equivalent of a home mortgage to get it. That doesn’t mean free college for everyone either. But there does need to be other creative ways for capable students to EARN the education level they desire.
Congrats on being debt free! That’s a great feeling.
BKB

[Thumper]

Agreed P-hole.

And thanks! It IS a great feeling that I haven’t experienced since 1989!

[Big Skyz]

Jim I agree with everything you said. Both my wife and I have college degrees and we paid the loans off without any help from anyone. My wife only graduated 3 years ago. So it's not like we don't know what college currently costs. At the end of May we won't owe anyone a penny for anything and will be 100% debt free. No car payments, no mortgage payment, no college loans, no credit card, nothing. Neither my wife nor I make what would be called a comfortable income. All but the last three years has been done on a public school teacher's income. It's nice to have my wife working in a professional field and we are enjoying having a better income than we have ever had in our entire lives. However we aren't spring chickens and it won't last forever. I would give anything to be really retired from teaching as it has turned into a nightmare occupation for most teachers in the nation due to Covid. I guarantee there will be a huge teacher shortage come next fall. I don't know anyone personally in education, that has the option to retire this year, that isn't running for the door at the end of the year. Combine that with the near zero appeal of going into education right now and it's not looking like a very bright future. Granted some with tough it out. I have to as I really don't have a choice. Some will still major in education, but the number of people that do will continue to decline. I'm getting side tracked, the bottom line is my wife and I have worked very hard for everything we have and to be debt free. It's been hard as Hell, and there wasn't anything fun about it. So I'm pretty deaf to excuses from people that rely on hand outs to pay off their debt.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Troy, i have it on good authority that you could be in high demand!

BKB

12359

[jb]

Bigsky and Thump have summed it up pretty good for me.
I've been totally debt. free for almost 15 years now, only expenses are daily living costs. Put all three boys through 4 years (or more) of college, all came out of debt. free (except #2 took out a student loan to bum around Europe for 6 weeks upon graduation.) Most expensive year of College just topped $10K the last year #2 was at Michigan, #3 helped out a lot with a full ride scholarship for 5 years of BB., (but that cost me a new Jeep Wrangler, with a bet I made with all three about a new car for any full ride scholarship.)
I have 4 kids working for the local school district, #1 has enough time in to retire, but having two kids 10 & 7 and a wife 12 years younger, he's in it for the long haul. Good thing is he still enjoys it, and the money up here ain't to bad at the top of the salary step with a MA.
If I had to redo my life again, it would not be in Education, the 31 years I was in it were OK, but I look back and can honestly say I did not enjoy it. Came out with a decent retirement, but feel I wasted my working career.
Life has been good so far, two pensions, two SS, good insurance and no debt. and good health and a part time job to cover my toys and hobbies. Hope to hang around for a few more years.

[DeputyDog]

Thump, congrats on becoming debt free. I wish I was in the same position.

I just finished getting my masters degree after finally getting my bachelors degree a couple of years before that. I’m looking at a sizable student loan. Will I accept it if all or part of it is “forgiven”? Absolutely. Am I clamoring for it to be forgiven? No. I knew what I was getting into when I signed up for them.

We started a 529 college savings account for each of our kids shortly after they were born. Haven’t been able to fund them the way we hoped to, but there is something there to help.

Living off of a cop and teacher salaries hasn’t helped, but we get by. Wish we were smarter about our spending when we were younger, but that’s in the past and we will pay off what we owe, not look to get it forgiven and paid for by someone else.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BarryBobPosthole]

DD, I know my sister and BIL both got some level of loan forgiveness for teaching in a poverty area, which happens to be almost all of SE Oklahoma where they live. Anything like that for LE people? See, something like that I could go for. 25% a year or something. Same for health care professionals. They could get something for working in rural hospitals wherre there are big time problems finding people.

BKB

[Big Skyz]

BBP, I don't know about LE, but the medical field often offers different incentives to get medical professionals to rural areas, prisons, or high poverty areas. One of those incentives is sometimes related to helping pay off student loans, as well as pay for additional school/training. Every hospital is a little different in what they offer, but some have some pretty good incentive offerings.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I like that carrot and stick approach. Society provides a bit of a break and gets something valuable back in return.

My daughter and SIL are considering a move to NW Arkansas. The town they’re looking at provides a cash bonus to anyone who moves there and telecommutes from there.

BKB

[DeputyDog]

I’m not sure if there is an equivalent for LE, but if there is, I’m pretty sure the area I work wouldn’t apply. We have plenty of problems but it’s not what would be considered high crime/violence.

We looked into that program for my wife since she taught in a district that qualified. We didn’t get anything. The reason was that her loan origination date was too long ago. Even though she had been teaching in that same district her entire career and there was still an outstanding balance on the loan we didn’t qualify because the loan was taken out before a certain date. Go figure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jb]

Back when I was finishing up my teaching degree, they offered National Defense Loans, if I remember they were for about $5k per year. I took out two.
If you went into teaching they'd forgive 10%/year up to 5 years, so my payback was 5K, made payment of about $25 / month and paid off the total amount in 4 years.
Back in my College days you could earn enough money over the summer to cover a years worth of College, now days a good summer job doesn't cover your books, :wink
DD, with all the new knowledge the next thing is Law School, or a teaching job in Law Enforcement.

[Penguin]

What students paid in tuition and fees prior to the 80s is nothing compared to what kids today pay. As states cut their support for colleges students had to make up for it through higher tuition and fees. It happened all over the US. So if we are thinking of comparing "then" to "now"? You don't want to go there, believe me.

Uncomfortable question: Do we treat all majors the same as regards loan forgiveness?

There's the rub. That's where the gloves come off. Higher education needs reform and this is where it needs to start.

Will

[HideHunter]

I ask a question quite often.. sometimes out-loud.. but usually to myself.. I paid my college loans. Only money we've ever borrowed was house and vehicles. We have been debt free for a number of years.. We live in an older house by the river.. Wife drives 2-3 year old cars.. I buy a used truck and drive it until the wheels fall off and buy another one.. Wife has made a few car payments when rates are super low and I haven't made a truck payment since 1986.. when I paid cash for a new one.. We're setting fine.. I've always been a "saver". The question I ask when I look around at all the debt.. and all those "forgiven".. ... "Where is the reward for having done it right?"

[BarryBobPosthole]

At least part of it is on your pillow when you lie down to sleep at night.

BKB

[DeputyDog]

DD, with all the new knowledge the next thing is Law School, or a teaching job in Law Enforcement.

My wife told me I should keep going for my PhD. I adamantly declined and suggested she should get hers since she could then go on to being a school superintendent instead of a principal. She wasn’t real eager either. I then told her that if I were to continue, we’d lose all our friends because I would insist everyone refer to me as “doctor”. [emoji12]

Seriously, my plan from the beginning was to move into teaching LE at either the college level, there are several schools close by that have criminal justice programs, or at one of the local career centers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BarryBobPosthole]

Well DDD, you might change your mind.

I’m trying to picture you in academia. I imagine Willy could give you some pointers!

BKB

[Hombre]

I think there are probably a few rewards to doing it right: Pillow at the end of the night, the lessons your kids learn and likely financial responsibility, and I think being financially responsible likely leads more to having extra (longterm) than paycheck to paycheck. Thump, it sounds like you've done it all right and congrats on being debt free! The one thing I'm not sure of is the medical bill. Was that really your responsibility, at least, the total sum? How are we to know what the market should bear for medical testing? I remember having a procedure and the bill came in an it went something like this:

Treatment XYZ Charge:$23000
Radiology: Charge: $15000
Post Op check Charge:$12000

Insurance company: No we will pay market @

Treatment XYZ Charge:$7000
Radiology: Charge: $7000
Post Op check Charge:$4000

The hospital then just came back and basically said ya that seems fair.

I'm all for paying fair, with hospitals I'm just not sure what that is. Either way what a huge accomplishment and congrats time for a big celebration dinner.

[DeputyDog]

Explain to me why the acceptable cost for an insurance company to pay isn’t the original price of the procedure/service?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BarryBobPosthole]

....right but you have to buy enough insurance to cover the original price. That price is what they base your price on. Understand now why there’s 45 health care companies in the Fortune 500?

BKB

[Thumper]

Actually, I was able to get the $87,000 down to around $70,000 or so. I was receiving bills from every direction, many from companies I'd never heard of. Lynn has an EXCELLENT memory when it comes to names and many of the doctors we received bills from, she'd never seen or heard of. When I questioned some of these doctor bills, I was told, "Well, he was on the floor that night!" WTF? As long as there's a doctor "on the floor" to react in case you need him, he bills you! Anyway, I didn't have the money available, so I called every single person or company who submitted a bill and told them there was no way I could pay what they were asking. Every single one of them told me if I put it on a credit card, right then, as we were on the phone, they'd discount it. So, I eventually got them down by approx. $22,000 ... except for the frigging hospital! The hospital wouldn't budge and told me I owed the total shown on their bill. Once that was done and the dust had settled, I took out a second mortgage to pay off all the credit card bills. The first mortgage was paid off August 2019 and the second was paid off 2/6/2021.

That said, my original post kind of went off on a tangent. What gripes me the most are these tv commercials saying if you are buried in credit card debt, call them and they will get the credit card companies to write the debt off, or at least settle for pennies on the dollar. That's what I don't get. These frigging attorneys make the credit card companies out to be the evil villains and the ones who ran up their credit card debts are the poor, innocent and defenseless consumers. When they write off Joe Blow's debt, the interest goes up on MY debts to cover the loss.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I always gripe to Julie when the ads come on about how these people got deep into debtbecause they didn’t pay their taxes and just give this company a percentage and they’ll negotiate a settlement for much less. WTF? This is not just consideredokay, its consideredthe smart thingto do in some circles.

BKB

[DeputyDog]

Especially the one dude who says he owed the IRS thousands of dollars and “they were going to take my stuff”. Really? That surprised you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Thumper]

Bingo! Now we're back on track with the main point of my post. I just veered off on to the school loan debt because it's been a current political stump lately and is kind'a sorta related to my gripe. Yep, the IRS thing pisses me off also. I (inadvertently) got into tax trouble myself once. Right after I'd moved back to Florida and bought a house. After the house purchase (20% down payment), I invested every penny I had left to start my business. I had an accountant (small accounting firm here in town) do my taxes and all was well .... UNTIL I was notified by the IRS that I'd failed to pay Capital Gains on the house I'd sold in California! The accountant was aware of it and said I didn't owe it. The IRS disagreed and IMMEDIATELY slapped a lien on my house. I went to our local tax office to try working out a payment plan and the agent I was assigned to was the Debbil himself! A total asshole. I got pissed and did something I rarely do, then asked to speak with his boss (the head of the local IRS office). She made the Debbil loook like Jesus! Probably one of the nastiest women I've ever run across in my lifetime. I assume her attitude permeated the whole office as two out of two agents I worked with were complete jackasses. I carried my case to the IRS in Atlanta and the woman I worked with there was a total angel. We worked out a payment plan and she repeatedly asked if it was ok with me and if I wanted to lower the payments, she'd handle it. I told her, "come hell or high water", I'd make the payments and make them on time. She assured me that if it became a problem for me, contact her and we'd adjust the payments to something easier for me to handle. A complete 180 degree difference in attitude from our local IRS assholes. Although I was struggling while settling into a new house and trying to get a new business off the ground, I eventually paid the IRS IN FULL and the lien was released.

The point is, even though it was some sort of unintentional accounting mistake, I realized (and ADMITTED) I OWED the money. (I believe there were interest penalties involved also) I didn't hire some wormy-assed company to get me out of my legal obligation. I sucked it up, worked through it and learned from it. Isn't that what we were taught was the right way to do things? People nowadays are so used to things being handed to them, it seems normal to them. Our younger generation is growing up witnessing this and are being TAUGHT that they have no responsibility for their reckless actions. Get a summer job at McD's and demand a starting wage of $15/hr. It doesn't matter that you're 16 years old on summer break and your main job is slapping pickles on a burger, the world OWES you that wage! Don't pay your taxes, there's a company to bail you out. Go out and get yourself a pocket full of credit cards, act as irresponsibly as you want, have fun, buy a bunch of toys, then when you realize you can't pay for your reckless behavior, no problem, just call the number on the tv screen! Heck, that reminds me of another related industry. If you owe money and bill collectors are calling you, just call THIS number on your tv screen and that company will see to it those bill collectors are prosecuted for "bothering" you! Heck, if you owed ME money, I'd be calling your crusty ass myowndamnself!

[BarryBobPosthole]

Hombre brought up the health insurance process, which is one of the most effed up things in history. Since my cancer, I’ve gotten annual CT scans like most all recovering cancer patients do. The radiology company my hospital uses charges $1900 for the CT Scan they do on me. The hospital files with insurance and then bills me for the amount they think I should pay which my part would have been 20% and was usually around $400. I don’t pay the bill because I know it’ll just be an pverpayment and it will take them months to reimburse me. So I wait until they settle with insurance on the amount which comes out around $400 of which my part is $80. In the meantime the hospital invariably sends me to a collection agency which starts calling telling me I’m a deadbeat. I tell them to fuck off, and in time it gets worked out. None of that has ever hit my credit report.
Here’s the rub. Thisgets counted in statistics as a bad debt, and in most cases the debt collectors will settle for a much smaller percentage on the dollar. All because their process is effed up. Its totaly fucking insane.

Its too early to get worked up about dumbassery, but that process always floors me. My last scan is next month and I’ll be as happy to free of that horseshit as I will be of cancer.

BKB

[Thumper]

We recently went through something similar P-hole. Lynn had gone to the doctor and had some tests run. Once the results were in, they ordered additional tests that had to be performed at the local hospital. This was in March and shortly after the initial doctor visit, she was terminated from her job due to the Covid b/s. She already had the appointment at the hospital for the ordered tests and went to her scheduled appointment. Next thing we knew, we were slapped with a $1200 hospital bill. We turned it over to her insurance company and they declined it because her company insurance was terminated a week after she lost her job. We argued that the doctor (within the insurance company's own group plan) who made the appointment, had initiated the treatment, wasn't capable of performing the tests necessary and made the hospital appointment when she still had coverage. She'd just lost her job and income, the company screwed her out of 7 weeks vacation pay AND we got nailed with a $1200 doctor bill. Nothing like getting kicked while down! "Funny" thing is, while we were arguing our case between the insurance company and hospital, we received a notice in the mail from some "XYZ Debt Collection" agency in frigging Michigan! WTF? I called "XYZ" and was told we'd been turned over to collections and we need to pay this bill or it would go onto our credit report. I called the billing dep't at our local hospital to see what was going on as they had told us repeatedly they would not turn it over to collections until it got straightened out. The lady we'd been working with in the billing dep't. told us that (agency) is actually a department WITHIN the local hospital. WTF? So, they have their billing department AND a separate department that poses as an unrelated, out of town collection agency using a Michigan address! We were also informed that this (bogus?) "collections agency" does not report to the credit bureau to initiate a hit on our credit report. So, I guess the hospital has a whole department dedicated to nothing but deception and scare tactics to collect payments! Ok, I can agree that just plain sucks and is wrong in so many ways. One department is telling us everything is on hold while we work it out, and another department under the same roof is telling us we'd better pay immediately or all hell was gonna break loose and our credit was going to be ruined in the process. Now, I agree, THAT tactic should be outlawed! Oh, the insurance company eventually told us to pound sand, shoved the bill up our asses and we paid the bill. :pissed

[Chicken Dinner]

What students paid in tuition and fees prior to the 80s is nothing compared to what kids today pay. As states cut their support for colleges students had to make up for it through higher tuition and fees. It happened all over the US. So if we are thinking of comparing "then" to "now"? You don't want to go there, believe me.

Uncomfortable question: Do we treat all majors the same as regards loan forgiveness?

There's the rub. That's where the gloves come off. Higher education needs reform and this is where it needs to start.

Will

This is spot on Will. I put myself through school working part time and summers. Tuition was about $350 per semester and the dorm was about the same at a major state university. No way could you pull that off today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[quercus alba]

Insurance companies are strange critters. My doc prescribed me a diabetic med that cost about 500 bucks a month which the insurance rejected but instead recommended one that cost about $1200 and another that $1000+. So instead of paying $500 they ended up paying $2200. ???????