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View Full Version : I gots an ethics (?) question ....



Thumper
10-30-2021, 01:52 PM
Sorry if this turns into a Thump post, but I'll try to keep it short. I'm considering having some of my military memorabilia put into a nice (professionally done) shadowbox type thing as a Christmas gift to my son. He has a sentimental side that I (unfortunately) don't really share. It may sound cold, but although my dad and I were super close, his old monkey wrench just doesn't mean a lot to me, although the memories (in my head) are priceless and all that I need. BUT .. my son, on the other hand, has little keepsakes that he treasures. I wish I shared his passion, but I just don't. My personal memories are all I need to be happy. Anyway, back to the shadowbox.

Back in beautiful SE Asia, there were some places I went and things that I did that were not documented. That's what made it very difficult to prove Agent Orange exposure with the V.A. That was finally verified somehow and I'm now on the AO Registry. At one point, I happened to be working the Cambodian Mission when I ended up saving a bunch of world mucky-muck dignitary asses. It was a MAJOR deal, but was highly classified and stayed pretty much hush-hush. One of those asses belonged to the US Ambassador to Cambodia and I later received a Letter of Appreciation from my Mil. Intel. Operations Officer regarding a Letter of Commendation from the Ambassador, which in turn, led to our whole unit receiving a Meritorious Unit Commendation.

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Now, here's where things got sticky. I was also issued a Cambodian Campaign Medal (not positive of the designation). The normal procedure was for the Base Commander with his mucky-muck underlings (Company Commander, Top Sargent for example) to have a personal one-on-one congratulatory meeting with me in his office and present the "I've been there" medal, which they did. So I was given the ribbon at that meeting, but the next step was a formal presentation with the whole company in attendance when the actual medal was to be presented. BUT, once I was given the ribbon, I never heard another word about the formal medal presentation ceremony. I didn't really care about any of that, but I did want the medal itself. I eventually went to the Commander's office and inquired about the medal and was told the ceremony had been cancelled and "there is no medal". I wasn't sure what that meant because the medal and the ribbon come in a set and I'd already been given the ribbon. That's when I was told an "issue" had arisen because "we were not (legally) IN Cambodia" (wink, wink) ... and that was the end of the conversation.

Ok, skip to my exit from the military and I was issued my DD214. In the awards section, there is no mention of the medal, so it appears all knowledge of the medal fell into a black hole and does not exist. Now to my question, I was planning on having the original letter (copy above) incorporated into the shadowbox. I have the Meritorious Unit Citation (medal) that came along with it, but ... of course ... no Cambodian Campaign Medal, yet I DO still have the ribbon that was awarded to me and was a part of that medal. The question is, should I include the ribbon with no medal? Or simply write the whole thing off and trash it? It was part of my military history, but without documentation to back it up, is it really non-existent? Here's the awards section from my DD214 ... the Commendation is there, but no mention of the medal, of course. I guess the censors did their job.

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jb
10-30-2021, 03:09 PM
Go here and order the Medal, I did this for the one's I earned. Good Company.
https://www.medalsofamerica.com/medals-and-ribbons/army-medals-and-ribbons/army-ribbons

Thumper
10-30-2021, 05:17 PM
Yessir, I know you can order any medals you want, but I think I’m looking more for an opinion on ethics. I have zero paperwork confirming the award. I do have the Letter of Appreciation, but that actually went through the company brass and resulted in a commendation for my whole unit. Without proper documents, it borders (or crosses the line?) of “stolen valor”, but I KNOW the legitimate facts and feel I earned it … and was supposedly awarded … but it was basically withdrawn (for lack of a better term). I’m leaning toward ordering the medal, including it in the display and explaining the whole story to my son. But … I still feel a little weird doing so. I guess I’m just looking for a little support, or opposition to help with my decision. My SEAL buddy has been fighting VA claims all his life as VERY few of his missions were documented. It’s a conundrum for some service members.

jb
10-30-2021, 06:25 PM
You know what's true, the Ribbon also proves it. No stolen valor here, just the incompetence of your government.
Your son will know the facts, and he can hand them down to your grand kids and beyond.
A typed copy of your story with dates, names and signature laminated and attached to the back of the shadow box will be there for history.

Thumper
10-30-2021, 06:48 PM
Now that is a great idea Bubba. I’ll definitely consider doing just that. Thanks.

chadwimc1
10-30-2021, 07:01 PM
Copy the above narrative and include it with the rest.

Thumper
10-30-2021, 10:28 PM
We used to have a patch that pretty much sums it up. This was always kind of a joke within the unit, but there is some truth to it and lack of paperwork/documentation reflects some of it. ;)

"We weren't here, we were never there, we don't exist!"

The patch: (the "Vigilant Always" and the "Lightning Fast Chicken Fucker" patches were our legitimate, official military patches.)

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DeputyDog
10-31-2021, 06:11 AM
I agree with them Jim. Include it, you earned it.

In my opinion it’s no different than the ribbons and medals that are created and then awarded retroactively to units and individuals.

My Dad served on a gasoline tanker in the Pacific during WWII and was awarded campaign stars for Leyte and Okinawa. At Okinawa they were subjected to kamikaze attack several times. In 1969 the Navy created the combat action ribbon which is the Navy, Marine, and Coast Guard equivalent of the Army CIB. They made it retroactive to December 7, 1941 and my Dad was eligible for it because his ship “actively participated in ground or surface combat”.

Of course by that time he had been out of the Navy for 23 years and none of his paperwork shows eligibility for a ribbon that wasn’t even created yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thumper
10-31-2021, 08:22 AM
Yeah, those were trying times for sure. We always had "special units" in Cambodia, but it had to be kept on the "down low" ... much like the "Secret War" in Laos at the time (I spent quite a bit of time on that mission also). Nixon announced our incursion into Cambodia (which, at the time, was totally necessary imho) and it sparked the student protest that led to the Kent State massacre. Many here may not even remember that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings


The Kent State shootings, also known as the May 4 massacre and the Kent State massacre, were the killings of four and wounding of nine other unarmed Kent State University students by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970 in Kent, Ohio. The killings took place during a peace rally opposing the expanding involvement of the Vietnam War into neutral Cambodia by United States military forces .....

After that, any U.S. military presence in Cambodia was pretty much on a clandestine level and definitely not announced on National Television! This was the reason for all documentation for the medal becoming non-existent and the reason for the CO's comment noted in my previous post above, "We were not IN Cambodia (wink, wink)". Kind'a hard to issue a Cambodian Campaign Medal if we "were never there". (refer back the the patch posted above) ;)

Here's what was going on at the time and why I stated I was in agreement with our incursion. In a nutshell, the NVA would come down the Ho Chi Minh Trail through "neutral" Laos (also the reason we were "secretly" in Laos) and also "neutral" Cambodia. The NVA would set up jungle bases in Cambodia, run across the border into South Vietnam and strike our troops, then they'd withdraw back into Cambodia to their "safe haven" to re-arm and set up their next strike. Since we generally followed the rules of engagement and respected the borders of neutral countries, all we could legally do was wave bye-bye as they scurried back across the border. What Nixon did was to holler BULLSHIT and authorized us to chase the little bastards back across the border into Cambodia and destroy their bases. A "what's good for the goose, is good for the gander" type deal. Obviously, the student protesters in the U.S. didn't care that our guys were being slaughtered and we couldn't do anything about it.

Oh well, it'll make a good story for the kid and I'll document it for him, for what it's worth.

LJ3
10-31-2021, 08:28 AM
You’re overthinking it, dude. Do it and don’t look back. Your kid doesn’t give a shit about the ethics of it and neither should you. Your country certainly didn’t give a shit about you when they exposed you to those things.

BarryBobPosthole
10-31-2021, 10:04 AM
^^^^what I think too. You’re a hero, fucker. At least in my book.

BKB

airbud7
10-31-2021, 10:57 AM
^^^^what I think too. You’re a hero, fucker. At least in my book.

BKB

+3...thanks for your service Jim!

Thumper
10-31-2021, 06:24 PM
Whoa! Although I appreciate the praise, I ain't no hero. The hero's are the one's who never made it home, or came home missing body parts.

I do appreciate the help with the dilemma that was the subject of this thread though. I feel better about it now. I think I'll go ahead and order the medal, then attach a "disclaimer" on the back of the shadowbox, as suggested. :thumbsup

Bwana
11-02-2021, 11:26 AM
You earned it, order it.