As most of you know

[quercus alba]

MSNBC, CNN, and Fox news all have zero credibility so I don't waste my time even acknowledging what they have to say. However, I do think there are some very intelligent albeit misguided individuals on this site that I trust explicitly so I'm curious, what do you think Putin's objective is with this invasion? Power? Fuel? Insanity? all of the above? None of the above?

Surely he didn't think the rest of the world would just stand by and watch.

What say ye?

[BarryBobPosthole]

Whatever his motives are, i’m not sure he counted on the economic pain about to be inflicted on him. I honestly think he’s miscalculated. And so did I. I thought Germany would take the selfish route and be the fly in the ointment of a unified stand. And Putin may not have the popular support at home he thinks he has either. And his military offensive has bogged down a bit too.
So, shorter answer, I don’t know but I hope he gets his comeuppence.

BKB

[Penguin]

He told us all what was on his mind.

He's not letting Ukraine into NATO. While we, madmen and mainstream news anchors aside, have made it abundantly clear that we are not going to war to allow them into NATO.

Ukraine via a formal diplomatic agreement, was put in charge of the safety of the Russian population in the two provinces. AND they agreed to grant political autonomy to these provinces. They did neither. They were warned repeatedly to adhere to the agreement. They ignored the warnings. They were warned not to try to gain admission into NATO. They ignored these warmings as well.

Ukraine is a smelt. A small, insignificant entity that has repeatedly provoked its not small and not insignificant neighbor. This is what happens when that occurs.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

So its their own fault they got invaded and citizenry massacred.

A viewpoint I’d not heard yet.

BKb

[Penguin]

It's not a question of fault, it's a question of power. And self discipline.

As a small and (let's be honest) not too terribly powerful nation that resides next door to very powerful nation, you mind your P's and Q's. Yes, it's their fault. Both for provoking Russia and thinking that all of that corrupt cash they funneled to US politicians would ensure US involvement in any potential war. Would this same dynamic exist between TWO very powerful nations? Of course not, you don't see that between China and Russia do you? But Ukraine ain't China. And, tbh, they probably never will be.

And don't think for one second we would tolerate Mexico or Canada joining a mutual protection agreement like NATO with Russia or China. If you tell me you believe that we'd willingly allow that I'm gonna snort coffee all over the tests I'm grading right now. :)

All of which is why I think we have the stupidest foreign policy elite in the world. The smartest thing the Ukrainian leadership can do now is stop listening to our foreign policy gurus and bid for peace. Which they should have been encouraged to do months/years ago by our leadership. This could have all been avoided with a hell of a lot less bloodshed and a better deal for Ukraine.

[Chicken Dinner]

Putin wants to reconstitute the USSR. He has said so.


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[Penguin]

Maybe he does. But I'll bet right now he don't want Ukraine and doesn't take it. He'll get what he wants and leave them to their own graft.

No one in their right mind wants to take on the task of keeping that nation's nose above water. That place is a mess.

Will

[quercus alba]

So this is more punitive than anything else? That makes as much or more sense than anything else I've heard

I'm guessing that once Ukraine has been properly chastised then he'll back off and all the sanctions will be lifted and it'll be business as usual and the Biden administration will take credit for it

[Penguin]

I'd guess so qa... who knows?

My best guess is that they'll inflict enough pain to force Ukraine to sign an agreement that bars NATO membership and grants, for all intents and purposes, autonomy to the disputed provinces. Is it right? Depends on whose side you are on doesn't it?

This is all stupid. So many people getting killed. It could have all been avoided. We should stop getting involved in these types of situations. We're obviously not very good at it.

Will

[Big Skyz]

I absolutely do not trust media coverage of anything anymore and figure they just report what they want us to think is going on. I may be wrong but we will know soon enough. I predict Putin's take over is going just as he planned, and all the hype about the Ukraine putting up more of a fight than he expected is just that...hype. He will get exactly what he wants and will do it with relative ease. I guarantee China is closely watching to see exactly how much fall out will result from this. My expectation is that they will see how easily the Ukraine was taken, and make their own plans to do the same thing with Taiwan. Once Russia and China get their first victories under their belts who knows how far they will take it after that. Likely, they will take it as far as they want.

[quercus alba]

But Biden is leveling sanctions at them right and left....................... to take affect at a later date

which is about effective as "wait till your father gets home " and "I'm only going to warn you one more time" and we all know how that strikes fear into the heart

As bad as I hate to admit it, Biden is probably doing the right thing keeping us out of it as much as possible and sanctions are only going to affect the poor and the working people, you can bet the people at the top aren't going to miss any meals or have to sleep in the cold

[johnboy]

I figured it out. This is actually a prelude to an attack by space aliens. I'm, therefore, in the process of re-reading L. Ron Hubbards Battlefield Earth to determine what will happen next.

[quercus alba]

if you're reading about Scientology then you're really into some deep science fiction right up there with Stephen King

[BarryBobPosthole]

If you yhink itsa just war, then why do you want Biden to stop it?

BKB

[Penguin]

qa I have to say that I agree about the impacts of sanctions. I've come to believe they just hurt the wrong people.

[johnboy]

QA, been a sci fi fan since forever. When I was a kid I used to divvie up my hard earned cash between ammo and sci fi books. Read everything from everybody including a few L. Ron books later on. He wrote what I call 'space operas', entertaining but nothing serious from my viewpoint. As for Scientology, don't know much about it really other than it seems like a huge grift to steal money from gullible people.

King wrote mostly horror and his few attempts towards sci fi were mediocre at best - except for The Stand. That is a classic and maybe his best work.

My favourite sci fi of all time - DUNE.

[Thumper]

But the ones who it hurts the most might end up hating those responsible for the sanctions. Then comes unrest and rebellion. (Theoretically)

[johnboy]

Decided that I know nothing about current events and will reserve any and all opinions until I have more verifiable data. It's confusing out there.

[quercus alba]

A just war, that's a new term for me....not sure I've ever seen such a critter, must be like one of those ivory billed pecker-woods. I don't particularly want Biden to stop it, I want him to do something to benefit the majority of the American people for a change and not just the "Woke" generation and China.

[quercus alba]

In light of the current situation, I stumbled upon this. Thanks for the insight Will



03-03-2014, 09:08 AM
Penguin

Hmmmm.... do I or don't I? WTH. Say it out loud and be done with it.

First off Ukraine isn't a nation. It isn't even a country. It is a mishmash of the remains of old empires, a touch of ancient memories, and a demographic nightmare resulting from an injection of Russian blood when they overrun the locals to take their farm output decades ago. Hell, only about 1/4 of the country even considers themselves Ukrainian. There really isn't a national consensus on where they wish to go because you have a nation divided ethnically by language, religion, heritage and everything else you can name.

Secondly, the nation has been looted. It is flat broke. The reason Russia hasn't just taken the whole thing whole is that they don't wish to be saddled with the national debt that Ukraine has rung up. And, TBH, the Europeans don't want to take them under their umbrella for the same reason. Like a lot of other nations that followed the Washington consensus they opened up their economy to liberalization and it was looted top to bottom by a bunch of oligarchs. Whomever becomes Ukraine's backer is taking on an immediate $35 Billion obligation that will only grow each year. In a nation with no viable economy. And unpayable debt.

Thirdly, Europe depends on Russia to send them natural gas. They can't warm their homes or cook their meals without Russian natural gas. Fact. If there were to be a real live shooting war where Europe took on Russia then most of Europe would endure unimaginable pain after this gas supply was cut off. Not to mention that most of Europe doesn't even have a viable army anymore.

Fourth, this was a legitimate, democratically elected government that was just overthrown. The fact is that democracy has failed. As it sometimes does. The answer is to have a constitutional convention and come up with something new. A very dangerous proposition even under the most benign of situation. Given the choice this nation would probably divide itself up. It is not a true nation under the most generous of definitions and the populace would likely split up if given the chance.

Fifth, Russia isn't giving up its only port into the Black Sea. Period. And if you think they will sit back and allow some hodgepodge of a new government to sprout up and do so you are dreaming. Take Crimea and you have war.

In the end there isn't a ~good~ solution to this mess. The best way to address it is to split the country up and write off this unpayable debt. The nation would still endure incredible poverty but at least they would have a fresh start without the burdens of past looting hanging over their heads. But that will probably not be allowed. You see the banks that own this debt are already in deep trouble. They wield a hell of a lot of power in the nations that are yammering about this problem. They are "our" oligarchs.

And that is why all of this talk of war is so hypocritical.

No one, not even Europe or the US, has the interests of the Ukrainian people at the top of their concerns. And even if we did there is no good solution. Only bad ones and worse ones. It is another one of those examples where military force has its limits. We could invade, bring the entire brunt of the US military to bear in order to protect the status quo and it would not matter. The place is a mess and will be a decade or five from now no matter what is done.

Will

[Penguin]

Wow... I'm a longwinded SOB ain't I? Even most of a decade ago. :p

Sadly the situation hasn't improved much for the folks over there since then has it? A good place to stay shy of, then and now.

I was telling my wife the other day that were I a political scientist there is a subject which has been tickling the back of my brain for a while. And Ukraine seems to fit the bill. I'd do a paper on it if that were my field. The subject? How people(s) react to threats. Ethnic existential threats. You look around the world at people who have been exploited or mistreated or victims of pretty severe mistreatment. Know what you find? An almost endless variety of reactions. Some sad, some inspiring, some ugly. People are people right? So you'd expect a lot of variance. It is amazing how different people(s) respond to pressure differently. And when you pull the lens back and look at it on a very large scale? Well, to me it is amazing.

Back to Ukraine. They've seen their share of misfortune and mistreatment. And they've doled some of it out as well. But I think the bruises and scars have changed the way they are reacting to this latest threat. And how they perhaps mishandled the runup to it? Hard for an outsider to judge I guess.

Will

[FooBang]

This might not be what you're thinking of, but this came to mind reading your post:


To our good and loyal subjects: After pondering deeply the general trends of the world and the actual conditions obtaining in our empire today, we have decided to effect a settlement of the present situation by resorting to an extraordinary measure.

We have ordered our Government to communicate to the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, China and the Soviet Union that our empire accepts the provisions of their joint declaration.

To strive for the common prosperity and happiness of all nations as well as the security and well-being of our subjects is the solemn obligation which has been handed down by our imperial ancestors and which we lay close to the heart.

Indeed, we declared war on America and Britain out of our sincere desire to insure Japan's self-preservation and the stabilization of East Asia, it being far from our thought either to infringe upon the sovereignty of other nations or to embark upon territorial aggrandizement.

But now the war has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone--the gallant fighting of our military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of out servants of the State and the devoted service of our 100,000,000 people--the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.

Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.

Such being the case, how are we to save the millions of our subjects, nor to atone ourselves before the hallowed spirits of our imperial ancestors? This is the reason why we have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the joint declaration of the powers.

We cannot but express the deepest sense of regret to our allied nations of East Asia, who have consistently cooperated with the Empire toward the emancipation of East Asia.

The thought of those officers and men as well as others who have fallen in the fields of battle, those who died at their posts of duty, or those who met death [otherwise] and all their bereaved families, pains our heart night and day.

The welfare of the wounded and the war sufferers and of those who lost their homes and livelihood is the object of our profound solicitude. The hardships and sufferings to which our nation is to be subjected hereafter will be certainly great.

We are keenly aware of the inmost feelings of all of you, our subjects. However, it is according to the dictates of time and fate that we have resolved to pave the way for a grand peace for all the generations to come by enduring the [unavoidable] and suffering what is unsufferable. Having been able to save *** and maintain the structure of the Imperial State, we are always with you, our good and loyal subjects, relying upon your sincerity and integrity.

Beware most strictly of any outbursts of emotion that may engender needless complications, of any fraternal contention and strife that may create confusion, lead you astray and cause you to lose the confidence of the world.

Let the entire nation continue as one family from generation to generation, ever firm in its faith of the imperishableness of its divine land, and mindful of its heavy burden of responsibilities, and the long road before it. Unite your total strength to be devoted to the construction for the future. Cultivate the ways of rectitude, nobility of spirit, and work with resolution so that you may enhance the innate glory of the Imperial State and keep pace with the progress of the world.



(Emphasis mine)

[Penguin]

Foo, that is an incredible statement isn't it? I don't think I had ever read it before and want to thank you for posting it. Japan is a nation with such a rich cultural heritage to draw on in tough times. You can almost draw a straight line of the cultural emphasis on craftsmanship and striving for perfection... hell from the days of the Samarai to today can't you? How cultural mileposts of decades and centuries ago can help to shape today's world. And it can do so for both good and bad can't it? Like I said, it just amazes me.

The Japanese statement you posted reminded me of Chief Joseph's words at his surrender. "... from where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever."

A human grappling with utter defeat and, for all he knew at the time, cultural extinction for all he loved. But a man who was totally spent and knew his nation was as well. But he faced it with stoicism and composure. And in the end composed words that added to the store of human wisdom in no small way. Can't help but shake your head in wonder.

Will

[DeputyDog]

All the while taking no responsibility for starting it all in the first place and for their treatment of those they “emancipated” in East Asia. Not to mention the treatment of POW’s. (My Dad’s Uncle was a Marine that was wounded and taken prisoner on Corregidor and managed to survive 40 months as a POW of the Japanese.).


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[johnboy]

Yes. Pretty words from a war criminal. Rape of Nanking, Unit731 etc., etc., etc. Had an uncle who was taken prisoner after the fall of Singapore and died in Changi POW camp from starvation and brutality. Rich cultural heritage? Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce was a man to admire not a savage.

[Penguin]

There is that DD. I know that so many of the WW2 vets in my hometown had some really hard feelings toward the Germans and Japanese. To the point where driving a German or Japanese car was enough to get on their bad side. Permanently.

A guy I really respect was speaking about the current mess in Ukraine in the comments section of his blog the other day. He had a Ukrainian and an American with Russian parents as readers who had commented. Although he keeps a tight leash on the comments (and ended up nuking a few of the comments to maintain order) the two ended up going back in history to justify their respective sides in the war going on right now. The blogger said that people in Europe tend to have long memories which is why their wars tend to end up spilling rivers of blood. The same could be said of a couple other areas of the world I'd say.

The blogger didn't say that as a way to minimize what had been done previously, but rather to warn that once actions of that nature are taken, they can never be undone. And might end up coming back on your descendants generations later.

Will

[Thumper]

Years ago, when Lynn was working for a large food distributer here in town, she called on the local VFW as they had requested samples of some product she represented. She entered the VFW and spoke with whomever was managing the place. During her presentation, some old drunk WWII veteran sitting at the bar hollered out, "If you buy anything from the fucking Jap, you'll never see my face in here again!"

She came home in tears ... I mean as in uncontrollably bawling. After 37 years together, it's the most upset I've ever seen her.

I mean REALLY?? She was born in Los Angeles!

[DeputyDog]

I never met my Dad’s uncle, he died way before I was born, but my Dad was a Navy vet of WWII in the Pacific, and until the day he died stilled used the word Jap to refer to anyone or anything Japanese. I guess he never got over them crashing or trying to crash themselves into his ship to try to kill him.

My Uncle (my Dad’s brother) fought in Italy and was wounded twice. He never talked about the war, but never showed any outright animosity towards Germans in general.

Right or wrong, people seemed easier to distinguish the average German soldiers from the Nazis and grouped all the Japanese together. I think part of it had to do with the nature and ferocity of the fighting and the fanaticsism generally shown by the Japanese.


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[BarryBobPosthole]

Birddog and I worked with a really great guy who was a Vietnam vet. He called all Asians of any stripe ‘gooks’. It wasn’t right, and it sure offended a lot of folks but there was nothing going to change that racial hatred. i had several uncles who served in WWII, one in the heat of things in the Pacific, but none carried the hatred that Larry did.

BKB

[Thumper]

I’d totally forgotten that term. In ‘Nam, they were Gooks and when I got to Thailand, “we” called the Thais “Slopes”. I never really used those terms personally and had forgotten about them until your post. I have to admit, my dad always referred to Japanese as Japs and actually slipped up a few times shortly after meeting Lynn for the first time. It was extremely embarrassing, but it was a term that was pretty much ingrained in the English language after WWII. He meant no intentional disrespect, but it was a habit he was eventually able to break.

Another slur I often heard in the military referring to locals in the Philippines was fish-head. Even though I never really used the terms, they were extremely common and kind of embarrassing thinking back about it.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Before you can kill a person, you first need to make them less human than you. At least that’s one theory.

And we still teach that during WWIi that the fanatacism of Japenese civilians played a big role in their actions. Another word for fierce nationalism, but it means they don’t really know what they’re doing because of their fanaticism. At least that’s the theory!

Is it okay to say gung ho?
bKB

[Thumper]

Gung Ho?? I don’t think I ever knew that gook. Was he related to Don Ho? ;)

[DeputyDog]

Is it okay to say gung ho?
bKB

I doubt it. Some overly woke person will probably says it’s “cultural misappropriation”.


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[BarryBobPosthole]

Gung Ho?? I don’t think I ever knew that gook. Was he related to Don Ho? ;)

I think it originated with the old ‘China marines’ and was adopted bythe 2nd Marine Raiders as their battle cry.
I learnedthat from reading about Killer McCoy in all of those WEB Griffith military novels.

BKb

[Hombre]

My first jiu-jitsu tournament was in Tulsa. I was lucky enough to make it into the finals but against what seemed like a pretty good wrestler. I wrestled years before, and my buddy said "let's show this kid how to wrestle."

We start, and are probably, only 30 seconds in and he hit me with a "jap whizzer." I remember it being like slow motion, ass over tea kettle, and thinking this isn't good. I scrambled back to my feet...this was a mistake as I would have been better on my back...only to get subbed by a standing guillotine.

Fast forward 15 years later. In in Seattle at a Gracie Barra gym and there doing takedowns for king of the mat. I hit a kid with the same whizzer. Coach stops us and wants to see it again, and asks about it. I say it's a "jap whizzer" very awkward silence then he pulls me aside and explains I should just say whizzer....which is weird to me because a whizzer is a completely different move. But that was the first time I knew jap was a bad term, I mean I had never used it other than to describe a wrestling move