So BBP...

[HideHunter]

"ENOUGH IS ENOUGH".. I could not agree more.. What are you going to do to fix it?

[Hombre]

I have no issue with implementing some common sense laws...I just don't know what they'd be. From the ones I've heard (red flag law, universal background check, and banni g ar15s ...I would likely support a universal background check but be out on the other 2

[DeputyDog]

I can see the need for “red flag laws” but the problem comes with the implementation. We all know that the implementation and the enforcement of these types of laws would be so varied from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and would definitely be abused in some places.

From my experience, there needs to be a major overhaul in the mental health system and the way that information can be shared. I routinely deal with mentally ill people and most of them have no support system and are left on their own to maintain their medications. They usually don’t and end up getting shuffled around until they end up in jail or worse being killed by LE.

There is no easy answer, but I’d like to know why our society has raised so many sociopaths that perpetrate crimes like this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BarryBobPosthole]

Let me put it this way. I won’t answer your question because that is the same rabbit hole we go down every single time. What I will say is that we’ve resisted any changes at all, common sense or not, all the way down the line insisting this path ofthe second amendment is the safest for us all. I’m not asingle issue voterbut I’ve voted along those lines almoste ery single time myself.
What’s changed for me is that’s over for me. We had a chance at compromise and we’ve had the people in control in politics to make them and still protect our rights as they are. And westill have this happening.
Its like Chilly Willy said earlier today about something else. We want to fix this shit without givingup anything.

From now on, I will support changes if they make sense, even if it means giving up ‘assaultweapons’, raising the age limits, registration ofsemi automatics, buybacks, whatever. Enough is enough. I knowwhat its like to lose a kid. I still can’t imagine losing 19 grade school kids so we can all go pretend we can fight the govern,ent if we wanted to.
BKB



BKB

[DeputyDog]

I offered that as a rhetorical question, it was not intended specifically for you. I sincerely hope I didn’t upset you.

It just seems to me that there are either more sociopaths in American society today or else they were kept under better control in the past when it wasn’t considered inhumane to institutionalize the mentally ill.

[Hombre]

I can see the need for “red flag laws” but the problem comes with the implementation. We all know that the implementation and the enforcement of these types of laws would be so varied from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and would definitely be abused in some places.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This hits the nail on the head for me with red flag laws. The arbitrary nature at which they might be enforced would be concerning

[BarryBobPosthole]

I offered that as a rhetorical question, it was not intended specifically for you. I sincerely hope I didn’t upset you.

It just seems to me that they are either more sociopaths in American society today or else they were kept under better control in the past when it wasn’t considered inhumane to institutionalize the mentally ill.

No sir, not upset at you at all, in fact I have the deepest respect for you and what you do. And I know the question was asked honestly. I am deeply upset though, that as a country we arefailing our children in many ways and this is one of them. And all we seem to do is eliminate anything to try to fix it because it isn’t perfect or we claim its taking a critical freedom away. I don’t buy that any more.

And FYI, I’d never base a friendship or relationship on a person agreeing with me about this or not.

BKB

[Chicken Dinner]

This is a tough one for me as both a parent and a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment. It seems to me that most politicians (on both sides) are taking the easy way out. Surprise! They are focusing on guns which are the tool
And not mental health which is the cause. If you think the way we fund healthcare generally is flawed, mental health is way worse. Even “good” health insurance typically short changes mental health. Those with no health insurance or even just lesser plans are SOL when it comes to mental health treatment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BarryBobPosthole]

Not trying to be cute, but it is a serious question, related to DD’s and CD’s.

Do we really believe our nation produces sociopathic killers on a scale this much largers than these other countries? Mental illness always comes up in these discussions.

BKB

13106

[Thumper]

I’m not sure i understand exactly when one is determined to be “mentally ill” tbh. I’d consider ANYONE who’d purposely take an innocent person’s life to be mentally ill. It’s just plain evil. Is evil a mental illness? Aren’t ALL murderers mentally ill? And where do you draw the line? And who draws that line? Some people would call any of us who go out to shoot Bambi or Yogi to be mentally ill. How far does one go down the list? Animal abuse? Starving or physically abusing a dog or cat? Having fun shooting rats at the local dump? There are some bozos who’d probably consider anyone wearing a fur coat as being mentally ill. (Or would the bozos be the ones to be considered mentally ill?) Again, what IS mental illness?

Mental illness takes many different forms. My aunt was severely “mentally ill” all her life. She was in and out of institutions for as long as I can remember. My brother suffered big time from mental illness. The common thread with both of them is they never physically harmed anyone. But could they have snapped and gone over the edge? Started shooting or stabbing family members? I dunno. I don’t think so, but is not knowing enough of a reason to assume they could become mass murderers?

Heck, I guess I’m “mentally ill” myownfineself. I went in to the VA years back to talk to a shrink about my concerns about my short-term memory. Not 5-minutes after our conversation started, she said something that cracked me open like an egg! I ended up bawling like a baby right there in the office. Lynn’s eyes were as big as saucers. I generally don’t cry. I didn’t even cry when my dad died suddenly and unexpectedly, and we were extremely close. I didn’t cry when my mom died, yet I’ll cry while watching a sad movie. Weird. The doc just happened to be an expert on PTSD (I didn’t know it) and after a few more appointments and tests, it was determined I have PTSD and depression. Will I grab an AR and go out shooting little school kids? Never in a million years. But how do you (or anyone else) know that for sure? Am I a ticking time bomb? What would you do to prevent it? Lock me up?

That said, I’ve read where this shooter was a loner. But so was my brother. Does that make one a potential mass murderer? I haven’t seen that this kid has ever been diagnosed with mental illness. How would this have been prevented? Again I ask, how would you determine a kid this age is mentally ill and going to go on a killing spree? I know some of these nut bags brag about their desires on social media and you always hear the old, “I didn’t think he was serious” routine from friends and family, but I understand this guy didn’t really do that until just before the attack started.

I have no clue what’s going on with society. I grew up in an age when the whole family sat down at the dinner table together and actually talked. Some blame it on religion not being emphasized in schools or not citing the Lord’s Prayer before starting the school day. I don’t buy that. I did it every morning, but it was simply a robotic move imho, it’s just something we did back in the day and I don’t honestly think it meant squat as to how I ran my life. I was actually surrounded by “religion” as a kid (grandfather and a bunch of uncles were preachers), but tbh, I resented some of the “preaching” more than I learned from it. Some blame the parents. I’ll give them that … TO A POINT …. But there’s a point where an individual goes whatever direction HE chooses. We had 6 kids in our family. One is a (self-made) multi-millionaire and another was a total nut bag, never worked a day in his life and was chronically homeless. He finally drank himself to death. All the rest of us fall in between those two extremes. We all grew up in the same house with the same parents. Which attributes can be credited or blamed on my parents?

I wish I knew the answer. I don’t. Society has changed and I honestly don’t know where it’s headed or how to “control” it’s direction. Maybe we’re ALL “mentally ill” in one way or another.

[DeputyDog]

It seems that way to me. We all grew up in a time when we took our hunting rifles/shotguns to school with us so we could go straight to the woods after school, yet there were no school shootings. Every hardware and department store sold guns over the counter without any background checks.

According to this link, https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/ the number of US households with at least one gun has remained relatively stable since 1972 between 37-47% with it currently at 42% so it appears that the number of guns isn’t the issue.

It doesn’t matter if I’m armed with a 6 shot revolver or an AR-15 type weapon with a 30 round magazine, a person can continue killing until they either run out of ammo or someone steps in and stops them. The capacity of the gun only probably only marginally increases the speed in which it happens.

According to this link, https://www.uniteforsight.org/mental-health/module2
The number of institutionalized mentally ill patients fell from its peak of 560,000 in the 1950s to 130,000 by 1980. By 2000, the number of state psychiatric hospital beds per 100,000 people was 22, down from 339 in 1955.

As I’ve said, I regularly interact with people with some form of mental health issues and unless they are “a danger to themselves or others” there isn’t much that can be done with them. In many cases, their families have dealt with the issues for years, many times without any support from the mental health system, and they get to the pow t they can’t take any more so the person is left on their own. They may function fine when on their medication but without any form of supervision, they quit taking the medication or can’t afford it, and end up on the streets.


We see them all the time at the truck stops trying to get rides since many are homeless. They end up bothering enough people there that the management wants them trespassed from the property. This happens from one property to the next until they aren’t allowed on any of the properties. If they go back, they end up in jail which is exactly where they don’t belong but there is no other option.

I guess what it boils down to is that some people require supervision and it does them and society more harm than good to leave them to their own devices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Thumper]

Not trying to be cute, but it is a serious question, related to DD’s and CD’s.

Do we really believe our nation produces sociopathic killers on a scale this much largers than these other countries? Mental illness always comes up in these discussions. BKB

13106

I’ll admit it’s probably still high and most likely won’t change the point, but that particular chart really doesn’t mean squat (to me) unless it’s figured on a per capita basis. Admittedly, ONE is one too many, but as always, the same exact statistics can be used to make a point for either side of an argument, it’s all how they’re presented.

[BarryBobPosthole]

The mental illness theory about mass killers has to do with RedFlag laws. And I think they are a needed law enforcement tool, if they’re done correctly. The big if is always there ain’t it? I recall the sheriff’s office in the Parkland shooting had identified the kid as a danger but their hands were tied.

My biggest worry the mentally ill is like Thumper said about who is and who ain’t. Is a vet with ptsd mentally ill? I have a couple of close family members who fit that bill if that is the case. I wouldn’t consider either adanger to anyone, except mainly to themselves. How would that kind of law work?
BKB

[DeputyDog]

I’ll admit it’s probably still high and most likely won’t change the point, but that particular chart really doesn’t mean squat (to me) unless it’s figured on a per capita basis. Admittedly, ONE is one too many, but as always, the same exact statistics can be used to make a point for either side of an argument, it’s all how they’re presented.

Not downplaying this, but another factor to consider is what definition are they using for “mass shooting”? Does that include any situation with multiple victims? Last weekend a local homeowner shot and killed two of the four people that had broken into his home. Does count by their definition?

Many police officers would also fit under the PTSD situation, probably including myself to some extent but LEO’s that have it the worst usually just end up shooting themselves. This is from July of 2021. https://news.yahoo.com/column-police-suicides-remind-us-184300708.html

“At least 228 officers at the local, state and federal level died by suicide in 2019, the highest number the organization has reported yet. Reports fell with the pandemic in 2020 to 174, and so far this year, the tragic number is 79.”

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BarryBobPosthole]

The guy that did the research for the deal I posted used >4 deaths with a firearm. Guy’s name is Jason R. Silva.

BKB

[Trav]

Not trying to be cute, but it is a serious question, related to DD’s and CD’s.

Do we really believe our nation produces sociopathic killers on a scale this much largers than these other countries? Mental illness always comes up in these discussions.

BKB

13106

It would be interesting to see what other mass casualty event those other countries had, i.e. knife attacks, car/truck attacks ect. as we all know from those type of attacks you can kill/injure a lot of folks driving a vehicle into a crowd.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Here’s another stat that just blows me away. If this was a disease we’d be demanding a cure now.
BKB

13108

[HideHunter]

I just typed a long post.. then deleted it.. It's pretty much all been said...

[DeputyDog]

Here’s another stat that just blows me away. If this was a disease we’d be demanding a cure now.
BKB

13108

That number also includes all of the 15-19 year old gang members in Chicago and other places that are shooting each other.

That is another situation that leads me back to question why our youth is so violent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BarryBobPosthole]

There’s a whole knot of issues around education levels and public safety that needs to be undone. There’s lots of opinions about that but I believe money spent on education in these areas would help that issue a lot. And its parents’ role in piblic education that is the gordion knot here.

BKB

[Chicken Dinner]

https://apple.news/A6A0NODJuQwyho91UWmKFIQ

Here’s the article related to the stats above. Be sure to read all the way through to the last line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[quercus alba]

This is a problem that sadly doesn't have a quick fix as much as we would like for it to. what I'm about to say is just opinion and conjecture and should be taken as such. I don't agree with a blanket mental illness notion either, it's just a dodge to keep from admitting the truth. Legislation isn't going to stop it either, it certainly hasn't worked with murder, drugs, theft or other crimes. The law abiding people are going to obey the law and criminals aren't is about as close to truth as you can get. So what's changed?

1) gun ownership? Nope, we've always had guns but not mass shootings.

2) Mental illness? Always had that too, we've just expanded the definition to where people don't have to take responsibility for their actions.

3) Violent entertainment? Nope been around a long time too without all the school shootings. Westerns and gangster movies were about as violent as you could get.

4) Bullying? Always been there. You didn't shoot up a school, you took a couple of buddies and fixed the problem out behind the school. Not to mention your dad would wear your ass out when you got expelled for something like that because you shamed the family.

5) Discipline and structure in the home. In my opinion this is the root of the problem. In the 1950's the number of white children born to single mothers was 5%, Blacks were at 25%. I don't want to get into the social inequities we all know existed , these are just numbers. In 2019 the numbers were 25% for whites and well north of 50% for blacks.
Without the leadership of working men in the home we see a lack of discipline. Not talking about corporal punishment although that may be necessary in some instances. I'm speaking of educational expectations being met, learning responsibilities such as chores, weekend and summer jobs, respect for law enforcement and the military and yes, patriotism also. Pride in the way we look, dress and act. All this starts with leadership in the home. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect a perfect world and there's not many ideal families. If kids don't have a father figure at home then they'll find one in the streets.

6) Education. Ah, my soapbox. If we got rid of all agenda driven education and kept politics out of the schools that would be a good start. If we taught our children things that related to job skills instead of racial division and that men can have babies then our kids might have a fighting chance. Right now all we're doing is training them to be wards of the state and hatred.

7) The solution. I wish I had the answer. I worked closely with the county court and jail systems for about ten years and it really opened my eyes. I've worked with prisoners, particularly the 309's, those on probation as well as probation officers and I feel I have a working knowledge of the system. I've been around some really bad guys that needed to be put away and many that were victims of poverty and small town economics ,and by far most were raised by welfare moms or grandparents. Most of them wanted good jobs and the ability to support their families but lacked the education, opportunity and job skills. I'm very sympathetic with the underprivileged although I don't condone criminal behavior. It's hurts to see all these intelligent young men incarcerated when they have so much potential to be useful productive members of society.

[Hombre]

Just an observation, but did anyone else notice that HH threw this grenade into the barracks then quietly walked away? :D

[Thumper]

Just an observation, but did anyone else notice that HH threw this grenade into the barracks then quietly walked away? :D

Sly old fox comes to mind. (Kind’a reminds me of the old tactics of a certain LEO from N.C.) ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

Tell me then what that last statistic means in this conversation. Does it change the facts?

BKB

[Penguin]

I've read all the posts. Good stuff all around. And I've no idea what the true root cause might be... I used to be more sure.

I remember George Will quoting someone or another that the 1st and most important duty of a society is to civilize it's young males. We don't do that anymore, at least not in large part. Whether it's gang violence, mass shootings, the drug trade, criminal violence, etc. we've got a large portion of our young men whose lives revolve around preying off other humans.

I think that is where the problem begins and ends. And I'm not sure that gets fixed without a major overhaul of the way we're structured. We've freedoms that were supposed to be embedded into a successful society that knew how to raise its young males and knew how to deal with outlaws.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

I think at least part of the solution is we have to rebuild our public schools, along with our faith in the public school system. I know that will draw a lot of laughs but here in flyover, deeply conservative Oklahoma, our political leaders seem to be at war with the public school system. We even use tax dollars to support charter schools where the ‘owners’ of these non profits make millions. With no accountability to local school boards at all. To what purpose, I have no idea. State testing has shown those students at or behind public schools in academics.
Parentsare part of the problem here as well, as in many could give two shits about how their kids do in school. They send them and expect the schools to do everything. Including keeping them healthy nutritionally in many cases.
Throwing money at it won’t fix it. I think if we ever fix this societal issue, we’re gonna have to reprioritize education. At homeand at school.

BKB

[quercus alba]

Throwing money at it won’t fix it. I think if we ever fix this societal issue, we’re gonna have to re-prioritize education. At home and at school.

BKB


Amen brother

[Chicken Dinner]

Tell me then what that last statistic means in this conversation. Does it change the facts?

BKB

I’m just pointing out that the rise in gun deaths among children isn’t being driven by school shootings. While that doesn’t make yesterdays events any less tragic, the data suggests we need to be sure we’re solving for the real problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BarryBobPosthole]

Riddle me this then, Batman. Its only one per cent. So should we tell teachers that their added stresses and worries aren’t justified? Are the active shooter drills in schools unnecessary?

BKB

[Chicken Dinner]

No, I’m not saying don’t address school shootings. My point is that there’s a bigger problem that shouldn’t be ignored in the rush to “do something” about them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BarryBobPosthole]

Yep, I get it and agree. Our suicide rates are also aggregious, although I’m not sure gun availability is partof the problem there or not.

BKB

[HideHunter]

Just an observation, but did anyone else notice that HH threw this grenade into the barracks then quietly walked away? :D :D... I seriously thought BBP might have a solution after his "enough is enough" statement.. He quit first: "Let me put it this way. I won’t answer your question because that is the same rabbit hole we go down every single time." So I just figured there's no solution.. ;)

[Hombre]

https://www-the--sun-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.the-sun.com/news/5447504/hero-woman-shoots-gunman-dennis-butler-dead/amp/?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%2 51%24s&aoh=16546449918000&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.the-sun.com%2Fnews%2F5447504%2Fhero-woman-shoots-gunman-dennis-butler-dead%2F

Reported nowhere but a few outlets.

[LJ3]

5) Discipline and structure in the home. In my opinion this is the root of the problem. In the 1950's the number of white children born to single mothers was 5%, Blacks were at 25%. I don't want to get into the social inequities we all know existed , these are just numbers. In 2019 the numbers were 25% for whites and well north of 50% for blacks.
Without the leadership of working men in the home we see a lack of discipline. Not talking about corporal punishment although that may be necessary in some instances. I'm speaking of educational expectations being met, learning responsibilities such as chores, weekend and summer jobs, respect for law enforcement and the military and yes, patriotism also. Pride in the way we look, dress and act. All this starts with leadership in the home. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect a perfect world and there's not many ideal families. If kids don't have a father figure at home then they'll find one in the streets.




Everyone take a breath and read what QA said again.

Kids are growing up without boundaries, without being taught how to be responsible, how effort=reward, without learning to respect others, without learning to respect life, without consequences for actions and bad decisions, no regard for themselves or others. When they snap or become unstable, nothing is off the table for consideration. If you've no regard for human life, no value of your own life, are so lost and detached that shooting children seems like a reasonable option... How on earth do you get to a place where removing their weapon of choice is the legitimate answer to reducing the frequency of these acts?

I support red flag laws, I support a 30-60 day waiting period for semi-auto weapons. None of which is a solution but stand a chance at preventing one or two of these tragedies from occurring.