So, let me get this straight …

[Thumper]

… if I worked my ass off to put myself through college … or if my parents worked and saved for years and sacrificed to put my ass through college … why can’t I/they get reimbursed? Isn’t one of the main goals, of a degree, to be able to command a higher salary after entering the workforce? Then why shouldn’t one use that “extra” salary to pay their debts? So, explain to me why one who could not afford a college education and had to enter the workforce at a lower pay grade, deserves to be fucked in the ass? What’s REALLY ironic about this f’ing bullshit is that the common working man with no degree is working and paying taxes so HIS tax money can be handed out to those who borrowed money and feel like they over extended themselves. They get their loans forgiven so they can command higher wages than the working man who put them through school. WTF am I missing here? How ‘bout we use this money to improve our TEACHER’S salaries? Or heck, pay off my motorhome because it’s really tough for me to make those payments! This is so f’d up I could spit! To me, this whole deal reeks of “buying votes” with MY money!

[Hombre]

Giving out the $ doesn't bother me as much as we are doing nothing to solve the problem. College doesn't have to be this expensive. Both of my kids did "running start" in high-school and came out with associates degrees, which saves 1-2 years of college cost. For both of them I paid between $1-2K for their first two years. Why isn't this a standard program across every HS? Also, community colleges are a fraction of the cost. Why do we tell kids they need to go to a major 4 year university? Why not take your first two years living at home? One thing that struck me when I was in Buenos Aries is a lot of adults lived at home until 25-26 while they got their masters. In the US a lot of colleges require kids to live on campus. Why?

Finally - I went to a vocational school, which was about $3K a year and only 2 years. I came out and I was equitable, and sometimes ahead, of where my peers were graduating with a 4 year degree.

I think there is a lot of things that could be done, low hanging fruit, to solve the problem. But, that's not the American way, we prefer to just buy our way out.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I had to pay for my own car, clothes, and lots of other thing from about age 15, when I startedworking on. But my sibs had all of that paid for by my parents. I also did college work study to pay for my college but they didn’t even have to work while they were going to school like I did. Boofucking hoo. Stuff chamges. Ssometimes even for the better. Grow a little thicker skin. You think kids shouldn’t have air conditioning because we didn’t?

And I agree with Hombre about fixing the symptom instead of the problem, but overlooked is another important change he made which is, as long as you make interest payments, it no longer compounds to the principle which does eliminate the issue of people ending up owing much more than they originally borrowed leading to a spiralling hole of debt. That should fix a big part of this.

BKB

[Thumper]

Stuff changes?? So, you borrow money and promise to pay it back, then "stuff changes" ... so MY fucking tax dollars should pay off YOUR fucking loan? Hey, I had two car payments and a mortgage when I ended up in the hospital and couldn't work. Stuff changed. Ummm, guess what? I still had to pay off my god damned loans or lose my cars and house, not to mention credit rating. Man-o-man, I'm trying REALLY hard to avoid politics lately, but I am so frigging pissed off over this Liberal "do what you want and if it doesn't work out, Uncle Deep Pockets will bail you out" .... with MY fucking money. How 'bout you pay off the loans you took out and promised to pay back? Isn't that the way it's supposed to work? I can go with Hombre, if you can't afford a Rolls Royce (major university), buy a frigging used Nissan (community college). No matter what you buy, make your damned car payments. I guess the problem is, if you don't make your car payments, the repo man will show up in your driveway. Once you have your degree, go out and make the big bucks, they can't take it away from you. Bullshit!

[BarryBobPosthole]

That’s like, your opinion man.

BKB

[Chicken Dinner]

Stuff changes?? So, you borrow money and promise to pay it back, then "stuff changes" ... so MY fucking tax dollars should pay off YOUR fucking loan? Hey, I had two car payments and a mortgage when I ended up in the hospital and couldn't work. Stuff changed. Ummm, guess what? I still had to pay off my god damned loans or lose my cars and house, not to mention credit rating. Man-o-man, I'm trying REALLY hard to avoid politics lately, but I am so frigging pissed off over this Liberal "do what you want and if it doesn't work out, Uncle Deep Pockets will bail you out with MY fucking money. How 'bout you pay off the loans you took out and promised to pay back? Isn't that the way it's supposed to work? I can go with Hombre, if you can't afford a Rolls Royce (major university), buy a frigging used Nissan (community college). No matter what you buy, make your damned car payments. I guess the problem is, if you don't make your car payments, the repo man will show up in your driveway. Once you have your degree, go out and make the big bucks, they can't take it away from you. Bullshit!

If you want to be outraged, take a look at all the congressmen whose businesses had PPP loans forgiven.


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[BarryBobPosthole]

13162

[Thumper]

Granted the whole system stinks from the inside out (there are Democrats on that list also) ... so why don't we just pour more stink juice into the bottomless pit with student loan forgiveness? Like I said, where should the line be drawn?

We have bankruptcy laws. If you borrowed more money to attend college than you're able to pay back, file bankruptcy and start your frigging high-paying career with a bankruptcy and a shithole credit rating. Maybe then, you'll learn how finances work.

[BarryBobPosthole]

The difference is the Democrats on the list voted for it and the R’s on the list all voted against it and publically spoke out against it.
There’s a word for that.

If you want to get into a discussion about wasted money, I’ve got all day. But neither of will feel any better afterwards.

So how’s your Mercedes running, Mr Getty?

BKB

[Chicken Dinner]

Granted the whole system stinks from the inside out (there are Democrats on that list also) ... so why don't we just pour more stink juice into the bottomless pit with student loan forgiveness? Like I said, where should the line be drawn?

We have bankruptcy laws. If you borrowed more money to attend college than you're able to pay back, file bankruptcy and start your frigging high-paying career with a bankruptcy and a shithole credit rating. Maybe then, you'll learn how finances work.

I was trying not to be partisan about it as I agree it’s all BS. But, since you went there, federal student loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy. (Unlike the loans the Velveeta Valdamort walked away from when he declared bankruptcy six times…)


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[Thumper]

CD - I'm simply pointing out principles ... not realities. I'm just making noise because I'm thoroughly pissed off.

BKB - It would purr like a kitten if Uncle Sam would forgive my auto loan.

[Hombre]

I didn't apply so I don't know this for a fact, but did have a discussion with a friend who took out a PPP, and I believe his was forgiven. Weren't PPP loans designed to be forgiven with stipulations on how the $ was spent? If you sign up for a loan and it says you have to pay it back, but not if you do X,Y,Z, then I think that differs from signing up for a loan that says you have to pay it back period. I mean if someone said hey I'm going to lay everyone off and the government comes in and says no you can't do that it will kill the economy here's some money to pay employees, and if you do that we'll forgive the loan...and the proprietor does that what's the issue. Seems like the only issue could be with the government who created the program?

[Bwana]

I agree with what both of you dufes said, Hombre and Thumper.

[Bwana]

I agreed with their first posts, but didn't push send at that time so I am reserving my right to change my mind when I actually get a chance to read the rest of this post. ;-)

[Thumper]

That's ok Bwana, if you make a mistake, Mr. Biden will forgive you. :laughing

[BarryBobPosthole]

You’ve been awfully mad, lately Thump. Keeping those stents cleaned out are ya?

When is your big trip by the way? Swing through Oklahoma and I’ll buy you a steak dinner. No bait though.

BKB

[Thumper]

I have an answer for ya' P-hole. Since the last election I got so sick of "news" and politics (read; bullshit from all directions), I swore off watching or listening to the news (other than some local news and weather, etc). I've been a much happier person for a couple of years. SOMEHOW ... I was flipping through the channels the other day and got sucked in to watch what was going on in this country. I heard about the "loan forgiveness program" and it sucked me right in ... then I heard how California is within' a red pubic hair of banning sales of ALL gasoline powered cars by 2030 (good luck with that one!) and I could immediately feel the B/P start rising. I have to get away from that remote and rediscover my happy place, It'll improve my health I'm sure.

Hoping to pull out of the driveway on Sept. 7 with no set return date ... but it should be sometime in late October. I'm ready!

[DeputyDog]

I had to take out student loans when I went back to get my bachelors and then my masters degrees a few years ago knowing full well that I would be responsible to pay them back.

I planned for it and as an option to make the payments more manageable and still be able to live life, I opted for the extended payment plan. The required monthly payment is lower than the standard plan and I know that the offset is paying more interest over the life of the loan, but I also have the option to pay more than the minimum when I start earning more due to me using my degree.

I don’t agree with the decision, but with that being said, I won’t refuse them and insist that they don’t reduce the amount of the loan just like I didn’t send back the “stimulus” checks even though nothing changed financially for us, my wife and I both got the exact same paycheck during the pandemic that we were getting before.


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[Chicken Dinner]

I despise hypocrisy in any form there’s plenty of it going around regardless of your political persuasion. I miss the old days when we could have a good arguscussion and still be friends.


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[DeputyDog]

The hypocrisy is ridiculous. They don’t even try to hide it anymore. They act like we are all stupid and aren’t smart enough to realize what they are doing.


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[quercus alba]

13164





13163

[BarryBobPosthole]

And just fyI, knowing Thumper when I read the title of this post my first thought was that there was a dirty joke involved in some way.

ps…..that’s what she said!

BKB

[Thumper]

Mine has a perfect curve built in … wimmins call it “the g-spot locator”! ;)

[quercus alba]

Hoping to pull out of the driveway on Sept. 7 with no set return date ... but it should be sometime in late October. I'm ready!

I can see the headlines now, "Florida man arrested and charged with animal cruelty when authorities find 300 cats starved to death on property. The stench was horrible says the neighbor that called the law. Officers said the owner of the property had gone on six weeks vacation and only left out 800 lbs of Meow Mix for the animals. We were really expecting it to be one of those crazy cat ladies but it turned out to be an overweight guy that had his mancard revoked years ago. The remaining 259 cats were taken to a local animal shelter."

[Thumper]

Someone needs to biteth me!

[jb]

My oldest Grand Daughter just arrived at the University of Michigan today. She received about 10K in scholarship money for her freshman years, so that helped a little, but a year at Michigan costs $31,500. Michigan has a quarterly payment plan of $7,900, so that's doable with them.
Both her Mom and Dad are Michigan grads, but that was 20+ years ago.
Mom and I footed the bill for two sons 4 years college education, no student loans, no loans for us. #3 son got a full ride scholarship for his BB skills. but that still cost me 20K for a new Jeep Wrangler ( my offer to all 3 boys was I'd buy them a new car if anyone got a full ride scholarship)
Back then a year of college ran about 8K, #2's last year at Michigan finally broke 10K. He was debt free, but took out a $2,500 loan his last semester so him and a few Fraternity Brother could bum around Europe for 6 weeks before they started work. He paid the loan back in 2 years.
We paid for all their college by refinancing our house, back then home prices were going up and interest rates were going down, our 15 year Mortgage payment stayed the same, but just added a few more years to its length.
Back in the 60's when both the wife and I were attending college it was pretty easy to earn a years college expenses with a good summer job. I also had a monthly check from being in the Marine Reserves, and back then there was a program through the Government that let you collect your fathers SS if he was deceased .
All three boys have benefited from a Collage Education along with both my wife and I. It was a very good investment
All three boys married girls with 4 year degrees, and so far all are figuring how to give my remaining 7 grand kids the same opportunity the had.
Oh, Sleepy Joe's decision to cancel some college debt is a terrible idea.

[Arty]

13162

I wasnt aware that only Republicans had theirs forgiven…


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[BarryBobPosthole]

Republicans are the only ones who voted against it and then ran out to make sure they got theirs. And then loudly complained about it when someone else got the same thing. Although 10k ispretty paltry compared with what these people got.
BKB

[Hombre]

I still see a gap between signing up to something that says you WILL pay it back and signing something that says there WILL be forgiveness if certain criteria is met.

[Hombre]

And, I still think we need to solve the problem of education being too high. I believe having easy money available through loans created an inflationary environment with colleges. Now we're giving out money, I'm betting the same thing will happen with the forgiveness program. From the time our last kid decided on his college to the time we paid the cost increased 20%.

One thing I think we can all agree on is an educated society is better for us all, whether thats trades or traditional college. We need to find a way to make college accessible to everyone and it shouldn't be a at the cost of paying off a house.

[BarryBobPosthole]

True enough. A big part of the problem is states reduced the amount of money they put into state colleges and the gap got passed on to the students (parents).

From a Pew Trust article: In 1990 state per student funding was almost 140 percent more than that of the federal government. However, over the past two decades and particularly since the Great Recession, spending across levels of government converged as state investments declined, particularly in general purpose support for institutions, and federal ones grew, largely driven by increases in the need-based Pell Grant financial aid program. As a result, the gap has narrowed considerably, and state funding per student in 2015 was only 12 percent above federal levels.[2]

[Hombre]

I read that as, Fed money was made easier to get so states stopped funding schools thus just shifting the burden to students?

Which brings me to another point. Here we have a program where kids can take full-time community college classes their Junior and Senior year. The credits are applied to their high school requirements. Example if you take 101 english it applies to your english 2 high school requirement. So many kids opted into this program that the Federal Gov was going to reduce funding to the school due to a lack of students enrolled in the actual HS. So, the HS decided they would discontinue the program in order to ramp up enrollment. Some how they saved the program but this would have left a lot of kids without an option to finish college. The lady who actually told me about the discontinuation was in tears, because 3 of her 4 kids completed college through this program and her 4th would likely not attend based on cost. Which, brings me to the point. The Gov doesn't honestly care (both sides) about real issues like this, they pander to the vote of their party. And, we are to blame. We consistently support our parties when they are doing shitty things.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Fed money was made easier for students not colleges, via the Pell grant program for the most part.

[Hombre]

Ya my first line says that..the next was a separate thought

[DeputyDog]

My kids’ school district also offers the dual credit classes. If a student takes full advantage of the classes offered, they can have their entire first year of college complete when the graduate from high school at a fraction of the cost.

They have scaled back the number of classes offered though. More because of a lack of qualified teachers than over funding. The was it was explained to me was that in order for the class to qualify for the dual credit it had to match the college’s requirements and that included having a teacher with at minimum having a Master’s degree. The issue my school district ran into was the lack of teachers holding a Master’s degree. This was mainly because there was no pay incentive to obtain the extra degree so not very many got them.

The district that my wife works for and a very substantial bonus for additional degrees and credits so most of the teachers have a Master’s.


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[Hombre]

DD - Ours actually go to the college for the classes (local Junior College). The downside is that kids miss out on the HS experience as both of mine spent Junior and Senior year at the Junior college and other than dances, football games, and school activities they never set foot on the HS campus. They also end up with an associates degree, or have that opportunity.

[Penguin]

Good points all around.

I think that this just postpones a reckoning in higher education. Costs are SO much higher than even 20 years ago when I finished that comparisons to how I did it are silly. It's not fair to this generation. Period. Giving these immature kids a choice of predatory loans or no college is elitism of the worst kind.n

But higher education is filled with stupid ass make believe majors and metric tons of grievance related administrators. And they all consider themselves entitled to label anyone who disagrees with them politically an enemy. AND expect those enemies to pay the bill to keep them rolling in tax money to continue their brainwashing curriculum.

What we need is a negotiation. Clean up colleges and get rid of the parasites, get back to teaching kids how to use their brains. But make it affordable.

We're heading into a very difficult period in this country. The fact that we can't even solve this simple assed problem makes me wonder what kind of future we face.

[quercus alba]

Hallelujah preach on brother. I knew if I would just sit quietly that Willie would come along and sum it up very succinctly and I wouldn't have to hurt my brain

[Penguin]

Hehe.

I flatter myself as being the Dennis Eckersley of internet shit tossing arguments. 😊

[quercus alba]

I'm more like Bob Uecker

[Chicken Dinner]

Willy, those are great points. The cost of higher education is out of control. Like others have mentioned, back in the dark ages, I was able to put myself through an out of state public school working part time during the year, savings from my summer job and a small federal loan of about $5k. I’ve been fortunate to do well enough in life that one of my kids just finished and the other started and I am in a position to pay for their school and will do so as long as they do t screw around. But, someone in my situation would be SOL now and I don’t begrudge them a hand up.


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[quercus alba]

Why stop there, Let's just pay off everyone's healthcare bills while we're at it. I need a dependable car for driving to work, let's just pass the cost on to someone else. The principle is the same, a contract is a contract and needs to be honored even if it's difficult...especially if it's difficult, teaches good lessons on fiscal responsibility. I have no problem with my tax dollars being used to help the elderly or disabled or needy or supporting the military or law enforcement but i have a BIG damn problem having to foot the bill for a four year degree in french Renaissance painters or some similar foolishness. We are doing a great disservice to the next generation by teaching them that they have no responsibility in any facet of life.

Ain't no shame in doing things the right way

[Chicken Dinner]

I guess I’d feel different if student loan were dischargable in bankruptcy so individuals would be in the same position as corporations.


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[quercus alba]

I know people are built different but in my opinion many and maybe even most of the bankruptcy cases is just a cop out. If I give my word then I'm going to do everything in my power to keep it. I may not have much worth fighting for but my word and integrity is something I'll not allow to be questioned

BTW, I oppose government bailouts and handouts to anyone, race or political affiliation be damned

[BarryBobPosthole]

I’d include multiple NFIP (Federal government flood insurance) payouts tp replace rich folk’s beach houses and condos in government handouts as well.

There are some places its just risky to live.If you live therewhy do I need to pay for your risk? Lots of people who live on the coast have rebuild multiple times on our nickel.


BkB

[Thumper]

I’m 100% with you on this one Q/A. :thumbsup

[DeputyDog]

I’d include multiple NFIP (Federal government flood insurance) payouts tp replace rich folk’s beach houses and condos in government handouts as well.

There are some places its just risky to live.If you live therewhy do I need to pay for your risk? Lots of people who live on the coast have rebuild multiple times on our nickel.


BkB

Couldn’t the same be said about most of New Orleans?


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[Thumper]

That's what I've always wondered about California. They build houses in the canyons or on the ocean view cliffs, then every year there are fires that wipe them out .... if they manage to escape the fires, the rainy season is close behind, followed by massive mudslides, then the houses either end up on the Pacific Coast Highway or continue on down the hill to the beaches or the bottom of the canyons. Then FEMA comes in and pays to rebuild!

I carry hurricane insurance as a rider on my homeowner's policy, but have no clue why I spend all that money. Whenever we have a bad storm, FEMA moves in and offers piles of cash for the under or uninsured "victims". [emoji848]

[BarryBobPosthole]

Its no different than any other federal relief but I don’t hear anyone mad as hell about it. And it happens every year. They’ll not pay me for mine if it gets flooded. Why those on the coasts?

BKB

[jb]

Learn something every day. Remember having to go to the bookstore and spend hundreds of dollars buying books written by the prof and in some cases never had to crack the binding because you took good notes in class.
Plus having to lug around a few of these to class under your arm (because back in the 60's Backpacks were not invented yet)
Then returning them to the bookstore to get 50 cents on the dollar back ?
Grand daughter does something different today, She still has to buy the $100 book the prof wrote, but she can down load it on her I-pad, but at the end of the class she gets nothing on the return. Well at least she not hauling around a 50 lb. backpack.

[Thumper]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220828/b2175ab550c0c995b6de2e1162d087f8.jpg


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[BarryBobPosthole]

Do people get $100k loans to go to trade schools?

BKB

[Thumper]

It SEEMS like a 100k debt to one who goes to a trade school. Isn’t the whole purpose of a 4-year degree to make the big bucks? Otherwise, what’s the point? Use those big bucks to pay your frigging big bucks loan. You know the one, the one you signed on the dotted line for when you promised to pay it back. The same I did when I bought my car, my house and my motor home. The same I do with my credit cards. Isn’t that how it’s supposed to work?

[Chicken Dinner]

The whole purpose of getting a four year degree is to get an education which “may” lead to big bucks. (No, that’s not
the only way to get an education.). But, if professions training is the ONLY reason you’re going to college than choose your college wisely.


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[BarryBobPosthole]

Maybe its splitting hairs but I thought the main reason kids went to college was to further their education so they could have more and better options for whatever their career ended up being. That’s not really the same as going to ‘make the big bucks’.
I know plenty who’ve made good money who never finished college and many who finished that enjoyed much lower paying careers but were happy as clams.
My only point being, this doesn’t all fit in a nice convenient speaking point package either for or against providing relief for people who got in debt over their heads.

BkB

[Thumper]

We’ll then, if it’s not for required, specific, career goals, it’s just a matter if choice. If you choose to get a college degree just so you can “further your education”, isn’t that a personal choice? Again, I can drive a Toyota or a Ferrari and IF I could afford it, I’d choose the Ferrari. I can’t afford a Ferrari, so I wouldn’t simply buy one anyway and expect my Uncle Sugar to bail me out and help me with the payments. I guess I just look at these things from a different perspective. My bad.

[quercus alba]

This is almost like having a civil political discussion like we used to do, all that's missing is for Larke to come in and kick over a couple of fresh piles to liven things up

[Thumper]

Larke? Naaa, he'd NEVER do anything like that! (would he?) ;)

Note: 90% of the time, when he was planning some shit-stirring, he'd call me first so I could go in as back-up and add fuel to the fire. He finished college with a MSD degree (master shit-disturber). ;)

:GH Shit Disturber

[BarryBobPosthole]

I understand this is a hot button issue for you, Jim. But I also think its myopic to choose this particular issue and claim the whole world is going to hell because of it.
If its about personal choices, the riddle me this, Batman. A person chooses to live a very unhealthy life, smoking, eating like a pig, not exercizing, and just generally drinking like a fish. These personal choices result in very poor health. When they retire and get on medicare and quite probably ss disability, guess which taxpayers get to pay fir that person’s ‘personal choices’? We all do of course. (the same is true for private insurance holders but that’s another topic) The same is true for those who rebuild multiple times in flood zones as I’ve mentioned before. Farmers purchase crop insurance from the federal government to cover their risks involved with the personal choices they make about what crops to put in.And before you jump up in horror to defend farmers, chill out. I don’t think any of it is bad. But we taxpayers pay for losses involved in many people’s ‘personal choices’. Some folks never work at a ‘real’ jobentire lives. There’s lots of people who spend their entire working lives either working for cash or not working at all. Personal choices. But when they turn 62 they’ll still collect social security when they’ve never paid in a penny to the program. There are many other examples.
The choice, as I see it, is we can get all twisted up in knots about what some other soul is getting or we can simply control the things we have control over and make sure we do things the right way.
I’m kind of tired of hearing about how shitty everyone else is. It seems to be the theme these days. With nary an eye turned inwards.

BKB

[Chicken Dinner]

Barry, I think you may be into something here. When I think about all the crap the government chooses to spend “our” money on, forgiving student loans for lower income families isn’t even on my list of the top ten things to be outraged about.


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[Thumper]

Most people pay into Social Security before collecting and generally collect on a scale related to what they put in. I guess where I have a problem is, we’re not talking about a frigging social program here, we’re talking about someone who borrowed money, promised to pay it back, received a product for their purchase, then the government steps in and decides to pay off those loans! Where do we draw the line? Are mortgages next? Caribbean cruises?

That said, at this point, I’m throwing in the towel here. UNCLE!