Conundrum

[BarryBobPosthole]

Just read an article in the St Louis paper about legislation pending to prohibit a company from developing and silica sand mine in St Genevieve Co. That area is not a stranger to mining so they know about the profits and consequences of that kind of activity. One of their greatest assets is their water and timber. Its beautiful Ozark hills and they attract a ton of visitors there. We float the Current River there every year. Its beautiful.
The conundrum? Its the base mineral for producing silica wafers used i. Chip manufacturing.
NIMBY I guess, but Missouri is a deeply red state. Can they complain about foreign supply chains and still pass legislation to block this mine with a clear conscience? Politicians can do anything without a glimmer of conscience.
Still an interesting conundrum.
Where would you come down on this type of deal?

BKB

[Penguin]

Maybe not just a conundrum but one of the premier questions of our times.

I grew up in mining country. And I can tell you straight up that I have a green streak a mile wide running up my back because of it. The destruction ~can~ be almost unbelievable when viewed up close. Deep mines? No problem. But those aren't as profitable so they are a dying breed. Strip mining of the 70s was bad enough to turn your stomach but now we almost smile when we see an old stripped mountain knowing that they probably got enough coal out to prevent a mountain-top removal project from being a paying proposition. Thank god that the biggest coal seam on my mountain is a couple thousand feet below ground level. And most of us on that mountain have the mineral rights in hand.

And from my farm I can see the National Park land which is protected from such things.

I challenge anyone who thinks going from big oil to big mining, in the form of "electrify everything", will save the planet to take a drive south of me to the VA state line and get a gander at the entire mountain ranges leveled off like pool tables to get at the coal. And then tell me how environmentally sound this switch will be. People think I am biased against EVs because I am an old engine guy. Not true. I'm anti-deep pit and strip mining because of my youth. And EVs are inevitably linked to mining. And I haven't even mentioned the disgraceful labor regs these lithium and cobalt mines operate under.

Honestly I am an outcast in my profession. I don't even think climate change is the biggest environmental crisis we face, I think it is habitat destruction and deforestation.

Will

[Thumper]

Tough call. On one hand, I understand the reluctance. On the other, I don’t. It’s no different than the oil pipeline argument, or drilling in the Gulf, etc. The screamers are the ones personally affected. Beach resorts to surfers.

I remember our own Bill Co9 having a fit when they proposed building a sewer plant close to his house. On one hand, I could totally understand his concerns, but name ONE neighborhood that would welcome a new sewer treatment plant going in down the street, yet they all want to have trouble-free flush toilets. .

Our airport was a military airfield when I was a kid, but has been converted into a very large, International Airport. It used to be waaaaay out in the boondocks, but commerce moved in around it and housing subdivisions started popping up like mushrooms after a wet spell. Now everyone who lives there complains about the airplane noise.

We have (had) a local racetrack here that’s been around for 50+ years. It was a bazillion miles out in the sticks. People started buying property and building houses out there and in no time at all, the noise complaints started rolling in. Once the number of homeowners outnumbered the race fans, the track was shut down because the neighbors didn’t like the sound of race cars every Friday and Saturday night.

It’s a little touchier with pristine nature areas like you describe. But it’s just like the people screaming about high gas prices, but protest if someone wants to drill an oil well and/or run a pipeline in the neighborhood. Compromise is hard to come by these days.

I have no answer other than these things have to be done as responsibly as possible. Not everybody will be happy, ever.

[Chicken Dinner]

Great post Will. I’m not sure we can separate habitat destruction and deforestation from global warming as they are so closely connected. I’m not anti hybrid or EV’s either. But, i do share your concern about trading a known problem for a whole set of unknowns. In addition to those you mentioned, what are we going to do with all these batteries when they start crapping out?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BarryBobPosthole]

The area where Birddog and I fish in NE Oklahomawas almost literally hauled away by Mr Peabody’s coal company in the 20 th century. From the 20’s on until the 70’s. If you take a flight at sunset and can see the reflections from all the abandonded strip mines its mind boggling just how honeycombed it is.

Its considered almost un-christian to think its high time we let the environment win out once in a while whenever these deals come up.
BKb

[quercus alba]

I don't even think climate change is the biggest environmental crisis we face, I think it is habitat destruction and deforestation.

Will

I personally think that the so called "climate change" is nothing more than natural weather patterns. We simply don't have enough data to say otherwise. It is however a great money maker and people controlling device. As a rule true science doesn't exist anymore, modern day science is totally money and politically driven. You start out with and agenda and use what promotes your agenda and discard what doesn't.

I'm a creationist but regardless of where you stand on that issue you have to admit two things: 1) the earth has amazing recuperative ability and 2) life as we know it will end one day.

I wholeheartedly agree that habitat destruction and deforestation is by far a greater danger than nonexistent climate change. God has set a day when He'll destroy the earth and there's nothing we can do to change that although we sure can make a mess of things until then

[Thumper]

Devil’s advocate here. When I hunted all those years in Ohio, my buddy was right in the middle of coal country. In fact, he worked his whole life on the Chesapeake Rail Road hauling coal from the mines to the two local power plants on the Ohio River. That’s all that rail line was used for. Haul a full load to the plant, turn around and head back to the mines empty.

It was all a strip mining area. The woods were pretty nasty tbh. Scrub, tons of briar bushes … not the “prettiest” woods I’ve ever seen. There were old, abandoned, overgrown strip mines scattered around … just nasty looking woods. That said, the newer mines (by law) had been reclaimed and were absolutely gorgeous. Quality trees were planted, large grassy plots (we called them food plots ;) ), nice ponds, etc. The property looks 1000 times better AFTER it was mined, than before.

The old mines were just raped and abandoned, before government regulations were put in place to prevent that b/s. But, there’s some sort of government program in place that is going in and reclaiming these old sites also. I’m not a huge fan of Big Brother regulating everything business does, but greedy fucks make it not only necessary, but a welcomed action in many cases.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I personally think that the so called "climate change" is nothing more than natural weather patterns. We simply don't have enough data to say otherwise. It is however a great money maker and people controlling device. As a rule true science doesn't exist anymore, modern day science is totally money and politically driven. You start out with and agenda and use what promotes your agenda and discard what doesn't.

I'm a creationist but regardless of where you stand on that issue you have to admit two things: 1) the earth has amazing recuperative ability and 2) life as we know it will end one day.

I wholeheartedly agree that habitat destruction and deforestation is by far a greater danger than nonexistent climate change. God has set a day when He'll destroy the earth and there's nothing we can do to change that although we sure can make a mess of things until then


You covered a lot of ground there QA! I'm sure Manifest Destiny is on there too somewhere.

Sorry, just can't go there. Maybe it's because I came from a techie background that I have a lot of faith that science can give us accurate data. That doesn't mean it can help us think any better, but the truth is out there somebody said somewhere.

As for God's hand in any of it, that's above my pay grade. It seems like a cop out to me though to just say that God gave us stewardship of the earth but it doesn't matter because he's gonna wad it all up and throw it in the trash bin some day anyway. I totally respect that belief, but I just can't get past it.

BKB

[Penguin]

It's kind of geographic sensitive Jim.

Ohio mines are generally in rolling hills or flatland. WV is nothing but mountains from top to bottom and there is very little cover dirt. Once you break that stuff up it is REALLY hard, if not impossible, to reclaim as anything other than flat land. They used to enforce a plus/minus contour line on mining here but abandoned it in favor of real mountain-top removal permits. (Thank you EPA) And they get a lot of those under "further use" conditions. Last I heard there was one county south of here that had 20-something future airports via mountain-top removal mining. Is it crooked? Yep, but nothing will be done about it.

I encourage you to google "mountain-top removal mining west virginia" and just glance through the image results.

Brother, I'm telling you that you can't reclaim it. No way. You've removed the mountain top and leveled it into the next hollow/valley. Both are gone forever. And nothing useful will grow on that land for a thousand years. At least. They spray that stuff you see on open cuts on the interstate system. It looks green but it is nothing but hardy weeds. It's the only thing that will grow there. It's all legal now but it is ghastly.

I am so happy that my family settled north of the New River where that stuff just never took off. Deep mines? No problem. Get a shovel and get busy, I'll wave as I drive by. But modern mountain-top removal? I'll never give it my blessing.

[quercus alba]

Heh Heh, Posty, you and me are kinda like a couple of old billy goats, mostly we're peaceable but from time to time we butt heads then go on about our business with no harm done

Btw, I think the Manifest Destiny concept has kinda been debunked in recent years.

[BarryBobPosthole]

The only difference between us and billy goats is our heads are thicker.

You're like that woman in that song that has a line....'she don't want to marry, but she still believes in fate'. Tongue totally in cheek of course.

BKB

[Thumper]

Yep Willy, I’m pretty much ignorant of all the options out there as it’s just not part of my everyday environment. The only other example I’ve been personally exposed to is gold mining areas in Alaska. My personal experience is about the same as Ohio. The mines AFTER reclamation looked like beautiful park land. Flowers, grass, new tree growth …. that sort of thing. I could see nothing negative with the process.

It sounds like the area you’re familiar with is not adaptable to the type of reclaiming I’ve witnessed in my very limited experience.

I don’t know the answer, but like most everything, I guess it all boils down to regulation and compromises.

It’s the same old story, I want my electricity, but don’t put an ugly ol’ power plant in my back yard. Build that power plant in the next town over …. BUT don’t you dare use that dangerous nuclear …. or that nasty coal to run it. And don’t even THINK of screwing up that nice river and killing our fish with a hydroelectric plant or killing our birds with your stupid windmills. Thinking of using natural gas? No way, you’ll not only screw up the ozone layer and pollute our air, but I’m not going to pay your exorbitant price for electricity due to the price of gas!

I don’t really know how ANYTHING gets accomplished in this country quite frankly.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Thump, I have to agree about the strip mines here that I've seen reclaimed. The guy Keith and I fish on had some reclaimed and it was turned into pretty nice pasture land. But there's ten for every one reclaimed. And to do it right costs millions. That said, NE Oklahoma alone has 32,000 acres of abandoned surface mines and another 40,000 of subsurface. and subsurface isn't any better other than esthetically because of all of the air shafts and trapped gas pockets and so forth left behind when they are abandoned.

The Feds just took away the state's regulatory authority here in Indian country and gave it to the tribes so we'll see if they do any better with reclaiming some of these. It's a can of worms here! Google Tar Creek sometime if you want to read a story of greed and stupidity.



BKB

[Penguin]

It really is difficult to describe Jim. But here is a photo of a mine within driving of me. Across the country....

During the mining:

13234

How do you reclaim that? Truth is you can't. It's gone man. And without topsoil it will just be a weed infested eyesore for a few thousand years. Like Posty said it takes millions to reclaim one right. I saw them try to reclaim one on the other side of town. They came in blew through a couple million and then just gave up and left. I should go over there this weekend and take some photos. You wouldn't believe it.

Anyway, I agree that we have to come to some kind of compromise about removing vital resources. I just don't think people understand the costs involved. They think we can throw a few million at it and all will be OK. But there are some kinds of mining that just cannot be redeemed. I think this is one of them.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

We're going to have a very similar issue some up soon in SE Oklahoma where I grew up. The Ouachita Mountains has one of the few remaining coking coal deposits in the United States, at least according to the mining people who want to get after it.
And coking coal is going to be big business if the steel industry makes the predicted comeback in the US.
We can't burn ur Okie coal for power plants though. We sell all of that to Japan and buy our coal from Wyoming for our coal power plants. This, despite sitting on one of the richest natural gas deposits in the world. And speaking of stupid stuff, we Okies pay the 5th highest in the nation for natural gas. go figure.

BKB

[johnboy]

If you are concerned about our physical environment you should consider banning or strictly limiting EV's and all the 'green' power initiatives due to their horrendous negative impact on said environment. For example - wind farms require the use of more mined materials (all produced by burning fossil fuels) than they will ever pay back and they can't be recycled. Add in the loss of millions of birds and bats (that's why they are called "bird choppers") and now whales off your east coast. All environmentalists should be screaming for them to be dismantled. Solar is the same.

All in the name of 'climate change'? Bullshit. Follow the money.

[Penguin]

We're going to have a very similar issue some up soon in SE Oklahoma where I grew up. The Ouachita Mountains has one of the few remaining coking coal deposits in the United States, at least according to the mining people who want to get after it....

I had not heard of those mountains before Posty, had to look them up. To my eye they bear a striking resemblance to the Piedmont region of North Carolina. Not in the mountains yet, and believe me NC has some really big mountains, but not in the flat lands either. Prime hillbilly country and a beautiful place. :)

I can believe that there would be a fight over opening mines up there. WV has so many scars that you almost feel sorry for her, but she has quite a few really pristine places as well. Maybe you can do like us and get a national park placed in there, lol. I looked at the map and there look to be quite a few wilderness areas and national forests already. And you know what, I had heard of the Winding Stair Mountains but had no idea where they were.... now I know.

johnboy it is a REALLY tough thing to wrestle with. I can tell you from my experience that getting accurate energy data is almost impossible. Has always been that way. Energy is considered a national security concern for most nations and they will not give out good data without a fight. And you can forget about getting anything accurate from companies either. Now you have a new prosperous field of green energy research that is ripe with big grants and scholarly type activities... and they are as bad as governments or corporations.

Payoff? It is REALLY tough to figure out what energy return you actually get from the green stuff. Best data I have seen, and I am not a true expert in that field, is not encouraging. It is not terrible but it is not good either. What we do know is that there is a positive return but it tends to be much less than advertised. I believe it is possible to run a literate and advanced society on this type of energy.... But not the one we have or anything like it.

But that is more frightening to most of us than fantasizing about a collapse. For some reason Mad Max seems preferable to a lower standard of living for a large portion of the populace...

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

Those beautiful places have their own conundrums to puzzle out. Especially here. Those mountains have some of the finest people you'll ever meet, and also the scum of the earth. We were the first to integrate our schools in the 50s in SE OK. And yet we had Sundown laws until the mid 70's. In my own hometown. These days, Texans have bought up as much real estate as they can get your hands on in the mountains. Just what we need. More effing Texicans. My sibs have all been public school teachers in their careers. They tell of being able to smell meth in their classrooms from the clothes of grammar school kids. Heartbreaking.

BKB