So here's a question

[BarryBobPosthole]

If the Republicans are so right and they're only doing what the will of the people want them to do, then why doesn't Speaker Boehner allow a clean CR to come to the floor of the House for a simple up and down vote? The republicans own a majority in the house. This would seem a simple thing. Yet, he won't do it. Why? Because its not the will of the people. It the will of the far right of the party and the Speaker is allowing them to do to him what they are doing to the entire government, and that is hold him hostage on this issue.

When the mid terms roll around and the whole thing is run by a Democratic majority and we end up with a bunch of bullshit, then you can thank the Tea Party and the radical members of the party for what we're going to get. That's what is going to come from this whole thing. There isn't any real conservative leadership these days. Just loudmouths.

BKB

[Penguin]

That's a bit simplistic Barry and what is more you know it friend. :)

You, I, and everyone in the US who is paying attention knows why he is doing this. And you, I, and everyone in the US who is paying attention knows what slice of the electorate supports what he is doing. Thanks to a couple decades of extreme jerrymandering there is no one to tell them to shut the fuck up, sit the fuck down, and try to learn how the real world works before lighting this kind of fuse.

In the end this whole Obamacare fiasco is about two questions: What do we do about people who can't or won't get access to health care? Who is going to pay for it.

As it stands now the GOP has collectively said that they are completely happy with the taxpayer and those with good insurance footing the bill for the rest. Republicans are a lot like Rick Blaine in Casablanca, they don't mind a parasite, it is a cut rate one they object to. They don't care a tinker's damn that Wal-Mart rakes in Billions USD and yet manages to put the bill for healthcare onto the rest of us. They even have personnel who sit down and explain how to fill out the paperwork for food stamps to new employees. To the GOP? No problem.

Aw they'll bitch and raise hell that some immigrant w/o HC goes to the emergency room and pretend to get all riled up when you start talking about uninsured running up bills. Hell some will even say they'd let them die in the street if they didn't have health care. In the end it is a farce. They know the rest of us adults will not allow that to happen so they can go on growling and pretending that if only they were in charge things would be different.

Personally the one thing I would want out of any health care system:

Everybody pays. This means everyone. No tax rebates, no special privilege. Everybody pays. If someone absolutely positively HAS to opt out because they feel their "freedom" is in peril then let them... on the condition that they sign a waiver that precludes any hospital giving any treatment unless they can pay in advance. Sorry but going off the grid has its price. That is the one I would make them pay. Oh, and those who would opt out until they get sick or old? No dice. Getting back in would require a complete physical with results being a clean bill of health and a backpay for insurance payments they missed.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

Good points. What you describe is a single payer system and its what I think the end result should be. the Canadian system seems to me to be the best model both for holding costs down and for providing the best health care available. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's better than what we had before. My health insurance was going up by about 15% per year before ACA. Now nothing directly from ACA affected my rates, but its' interesting to note that in the two years since it passed, my rates have not gone up at all. And this year, to absorb the cost of complying with ACA, my rates have gone up five whole dollars. that's a big difference from what is being reported.

anyway, this isn't about health care law or shouldn't be. that issue is passed already isn't it? Still we have these people wanting to put Humpty back together again. They're all hopey changey they can do that.

BKB

[Penguin]

Yeah, I suppose in the end it would end up as a single payer system.

And I wouldn't have a problem with that. My main contention is that countries that have a single payer system (instead of one that is administered at the workplace) tack the price for health care onto the price of any product downstream of the product going into the market place. I.E. they get their payments from the consumer after the product has already been sold. They have an advantage that just cannot be overcome when it comes to head to head competition. For the sake of competing against these guys we have to get the price of health care out of places of employment.

My second contention is personal: I despise a parasite.

As it regards health care I know as a kid I was exposed to the workings of health care cost discrimination at a young age. My dad would pay into his health care plan religiously as a union equipment operator. And then every time some scab in town would go to the doctor or hospital they would either pay a hell of a lot less or else the government picked up the tab. It was bullshit then and it is bullshit now. I heard all of that tired old "union/communism" John Wayne bullshit and then the second they needed a doctor someone else had to pay up. I hated a parasite then and I hate one now... and I hate those like the GOP who enable parasitic behavior even more.

Will

[Chicken Dinner]

Interesting point about insurance rates. Mine haven't gone up yet either. We self insure most if our health coverage and our overall "experience" as a percentage of payroll has actually gone down. What I'm told is coming though is tat many of our plans (we have different options) will be considered "Cadillac" plans in the next couple of years and be considered taxable. As a result, we may have to do away with our traditional 90/10 plan altogether as it will be cost prohibitive to both the company and the employees.

[Penguin]

Speaking of parasitic behavior, I've been meaning to ask who takes up the collection around here. Did a search last month and couldn't find a whisper on who holds the collection plate. :)

Will

[Thumper]

That would be me Willie ... but we're financially solvent right now. The main expense was the start-up costs and even they were comparatively low. That last server was a piece of crap and a money pit ... this place has been a smooth and economical operation so far. We're in the black with a budget surplus right now and should be for a while unless something totally unexpected shows up ... or we want to get super fancy with some sort of program we have to pay for.

Thanks for the concern, but unlike the government ... we've been pretty much operating under budget! :D

[BarryBobPosthole]

Pumphead for president!

We're gonna pay for health care no matter what. So lets get rid of the denial.

Personally, I think McCain had the right idea to unhook health insurance from work benefits. Of course, companies would scream like hell ifthe TRUE cost they're paying vs what they SAY they're paying was known. But I'd sure like to see them squirm when someone gave employees an option to just take that in their pay instead of buying insurancefrom them.

BKB

[LJ3]

I'm not sure I know how to participate in a reasonable discussion about health care. Like, seriously.

[Chicken Dinner]

Let's also not pretend we're not already paying for the uninsured either.

[DeputyDog]

When the mid terms roll around and the whole thing is run by a Democratic majority and we end up with a bunch of bullshit, then you can thank the Tea Party and the radical members of the party for what we're going to get. That's what is going to come from this whole thing. There isn't any real conservative leadership these days. Just loudmouths.

BKB

So what you're saying is that it will be the Republicans fault if the Democrats take control of the house, keep control of the Senate, and have the White House, and we end up with bullshit. Won't that give them the chance to fix everything the way they have been claiming they could except for those damned Republicans that control the House?

[BarryBobPosthole]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

BKB

[Captain]

Naw, Deputy they would make up some other excuse for not being able to get it done. Like something George Bush did 20 years ago....
See they cannot have ownership of any of their failed policies. It's always someone else's fault. Best lip service group in America today. The Democrat Party... They remind me of a hurricane. Lots of hard blowing in the beginning but in the end someone's gonna loose a trailer.

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[BarryBobPosthole]

Now you're just being nasty.

So thanks to your crazy ass buddies who pulled this shenanigan, you'll get to bitch about having Hillary the next eight years and likely a Democratic majority in the house as well as the Senate. There's lots of really good conservative republican leaders that are getting ready to throw in the towel thanks to the people you seem to like the most. And America isn't going to elect any of them.

BKB

[Captain]

I ain't being nasty and the truth is the truth. Written or spoken. You will see this tide ebb and flow and the Democrats will take the black eye on this one. They have caused this mess and it will become apparent to the voters. Hide and watch.

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[BarryBobPosthole]

That's fantasy, Larke. The real deal is this is Ted Cruz's bid to get his name in the papers and get ready for his presidential candidacy. And Ted Cruz would be about as stupid a candidate for president as Hillary would be. The only people that are blaming the democrats for this shutdown are the tea party republicans and their lackey, Fox News, who call this a 'slimdown' which is an insult to everyone that's without a paycheck right now because of this guy.

Face it. there is no real leadership in the Republican Party right now. Just this Ted Cruz guy and some asshole from Utah. He saw the vacuum and stepped into it. Read what any true conservative leader says about it and they mostly don't agree with it.

Ya'll need to get over your bad selves.

BKB

[DeputyDog]

Where's the leadership in the Democratic party? I don't classify it as "leadership" when the line is, "Do it my way, or else." Then blame the other side when they don't give in to everything and say that they won't compromise. I guess I must not understand what compromise means. I always thought that it meant that both sides gave a little and met in the middle and neither side ended up with everything they wanted. It seems to me that the Democrats believe that compromise means that you sacrifice your beliefs and ideas and go along with them because in the end, they really know better than you do what is good for you.

[Captain]

Hide and watch.... Voters have short memories.
The economy has gone to shit, prices of everything is high as hell and Ding Dong can no longer get away with blaming Bush. He has full ownership. He and his Democrat failed policies are blowing up and the coat of whitewash is slipping away. People are ready to his change go away.

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[Captain]

Bingo Deputy BINGO. When the Senate sent a message to the house that said don't send us a bill that says anything about Obama care or we will not sign it THEY started this thing. And THEY shut the government down.

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[BarryBobPosthole]

Both of you guys are blind to the real point. The time for compromise was when this bill was being negotiated through the House and senate. You seem to have very selective memories, but then it was 'my way or the highway' from the republican leadership who refused in any way to even talk about health care reform. We have NEVER seen a republican sponsored health care reform bill of any kind. you seem to think that this hostage taking is the way to do business, which only shows you prefer this anarchy to our political system. If you want it so the minority of any congress can hold the rest of the country hostage every time they want to score political points, then you will get what you wish for.

And Larke, the idea that you can fuck over the voters and they'll forget because they have short memories is just plain.....well I think it's wrong.

BKB

[Captain]

These two guys have lived and worked the streets and see the underbelly of what is really going on.. :D

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[DeputyDog]

The whole thing of calling it "health care reform" is misnamed in my opionion. This law changes nothing about health care and the problem with risings costs of it. It only forces people to pay for insurance that doesn't already have it. Saying that it doesn't affect those that already have coverage is bullshit. Look at how many companies have cut workers back to part time because they couldn't afford to pay for all of their full time employees because the cost of the coverage will be too expensive for them under the "Affordable Care Act". I know of several in my small town. I know the owners of these small companies personally and they want to provide insurance to their employees, but they can't afford it under the new costs, so they are cutting back on employees that are eligible for coverage so they can stay in business. I guess fewer full time workers is better for this economy and the country in general. In my opinion, all it does is make more and more people reliant on the government for everything.

It has affected me first hand in another way. My wife's employer had to change their coverage due to the cost of their existing coverage being too expensive to maintain under the new law that too effect on Tuesday. Now I'm paying more for coverage that isn't as good as what we had previously. Tell me how that is better for me. I know that I'm not the only person that this is happening to, so who exactly is it helping. My mom, who is 83, is meeting with her insurance company next week to talk about her coverage, so when that happens I'll let you know if it helps "seniors" or not. I doubt it will.

It seems to me that if the real problem is health care is too expensive, so why not address that, not force people to pay for insurance that won't make any single health care procedure any cheaper for anyone.

[BarryBobPosthole]

There is no real data on how many companies cut back to part time because of ACA. None. Meanwhile, there is real data on how many companies in the present day (pre-ACA) routinely hold their employees as part timers just so they don't have to pay health care. If there is data, show me. And don't show me some letter form some friggin CEO. I want to see data. there is none. Just hoo hah.
Admittedly, ACA is not the answer. The answer IMO is to take health care away as an employer provided insurance and pay employees what companies claim they're paying today for it and let people buy it on the open market.

No wait. That won't work. Because insurance companies have captive customer groups that they MAKE buy their product under auspices of an employee benefit. That's about as free market as communism.

BKB

and PS...here's a link to an article that is the most objective and least partisan that I've been able to find. Politico is probably even a little more right leaning than left, but I usually find they're objective. Its not the end all answer to everything but there's some good food for thought here about the impacts to small business that we keep hearing getting screamed at us.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/how-obamacare-affects-businesses-large-and-small-97460.html

[DeputyDog]

Ok, so ACA isn't the answer, but since it's been implemented, we are stuck with it and there shouldn't be any further discussion on it. Now I understand.

[BarryBobPosthole]

No, that's not what I mean at all. What needs to happen is that congress and the president need to start to work now fixing it. We don't have to scrap it to fix it. We do agree that it needs to be fixed though. But not this way. It needs to be fixed by people presenting ideas to either replace it with something better or to fix what we have. Neither of those ideas have been brought up during this fiasco.

BKB

[Captain]

It all comes down to the lier in Chief saying and getting elected on saying he would NOT allow congress to vote on or enact any laws while he was president until they had been put up on the internet and published publicly so all Americans could understand what was being voted on... Then he forces this thing through in secret without letting congress even read or understand it, much less "us" In fact it was written by a committee that the chair even said he did not understand it, and passed by a congress that did not even get to read it

From that point on it was tainted and there is no one to blame for it but the lier in Chief. This whole mess is his doing and blaming Republicans for standing up is stupid and wrong. PERIOD. they should stand up and I hope the shutdown goes on and the 1000 president and First Ladies assistants are out of work for a long time.... And somehow NOW you think we need to start believing him on ANYTHING?
Like OK it's pass it Law now let's fix it... bullshit.
Too bad the picture attached is not a joke, I wish it was but it is sad true facts...

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[Big Muddy]

Those loveable sensitive democrats....yesterday on nat'l tv news conference, Reid, when asked by Dana Bash of CNN about not funding the Nat'l Institute of Health, which does great work for kid's cancer research....his response, "Why would we want to do that???"


Reid is a mean-spirited, selfish, mentally retarded prick....oh yeah, btw, Pelosi is, too....and, yes, I believe she, too, has a prick, inside her pants suit. ;)

And, btw, he objected to the funding for the Vet Memorial, too....and, did it with a chuckle on the Senate floor.




Here's the exact exchange:


"""DANA: But if you can help one child, why won't you do it?

REID: I, listen...

SCHUMER: Why pit one against the other?

REID: Why, why, why would we want to do that? I have, I have 1100 people at Nellis Air Force Base that are sitting home. They have, they have a few problems of their own. This is, to have someone of your intelligence suggest such a thing maybe means you're as irresponsible and reckless."""



Looks like the media's love affair with the dems might be wearing thin....just saying.

[Big Muddy]

And, this morning, Boehner's response to Obama's and Reid's claim to be "winning" the standoff----"This isn't a damn game....this is the American people we're talking about!!!"

[DeputyDog]

Look at this on the topic.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/obamacare-worst-law-passed-four-decades-must-stopped-121701392.html?vp=1

[Niner]

For those poor souls who are either under informed, lack the ability to operate the complex Google search engine, get their "news" from CNN ABC NBC CBS PBS and such, OR don't have a memory any longer than their dick....I submit the following link for your perusal.

This is a Bill written to replace ACA with something that would work.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-113hr2300ih/pdf/BILLS-113hr2300ih.pdf

To make claim the Republicans have not submitted anything is nothing less than a falsehood at best and a Damnable Lie at worse.

Other attempts were made before the ACA was rammed through in the dark of night....but those in power at that time would allow no discussion s.

[Captain]

To say the Republicans have not offered to meet and talk about AHC is a dam lie. Some folks sure have short memories. When this bill was brought forward the Republicans (and at that time a few Democrats) had questions and wanted to understand the law before the vote. But the democrat leaders Reid and Pelosi blocked any talks of adjustment or meeting and made it a rush through. And of course got all the Dems in lock step and shoved it through. NOW they say there was no need then to hold meetings and they will not do it now so WHO has blocked and failed to agree to meet?

In fact Pee-losi said quote, “But we have to pass the [health care] bill so that you can find out what’s in it....” So if the democrats would not allow folks to understand it BEFORE it was passed and won't meet and answer questions or make changes now THEY are the ones that are shutting everything down and stalling talks... PERIOD Who is locking the system up? And you wonder why I don't trust them to just move forward and let it go through with the promise of meeting and adjusting. All, all, all, ALL WE get out if this president is damn lies, and stalling tactics hoping to wear people down to loose interest and give up.
I hope the Republicans and the Tea Party hold the line and force changes to the worst law in history by the worst president in history. If you believe ANYTHING he says you are a damn fool. The tide of this will swing as the debt ceiling approaches in a few days.
Hold the line guys!

Take Care, Captain

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