Insurance Rant

[LJ3]

Saw this on some dudes page on facebook. Thing is, I think most of this is pretty dang accurate. I could be wrong. Pretty sure I myself have heard the majority of these words come out of Obamas piehole.

► He told us if we liked our current insurance plan, we could keep it....LIAR!!
► He told us if we liked our current doctor, we could keep them....LIAR!!
► He told us it would reduce the cost of health care in America....LIAR!!
► He told us buying health insurance would be just like using Amazon....LIAR!!
► He told us insurance premiums would go down an average of $2,500....LIAR!!
► He told us it would cover 40 million uninsured....LIAR!!
► He told us it wouldn't fund abortions....LIAR!!

[Niner]

Oh dude, didn't you hear... He apologized for all that, so now everything's cool again.

NOT!

[Captain]

Don't get me started on that lying POS

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[Thumper]

Oh dude, didn't you hear... He apologized for all that, so now everything's cool again.

NOT!

I watched the news conference where he apologized. He made his usual "apologize, but blame someone else" speech. The a-hole apologized ... THEN said he didn't know there were problems because nobody told him! How many times have we heard that? I'm really surprised he didn't blame George Bush!

[DeputyDog]

Or at least blame it on the horrible situation that the previous administration left them when they took over.

[Big Skyz]

All I know is I don't have a big income. Montana school teachers are ranked in the bottom third as far as salaries go in the nation. I don't live here for the money obviously. With that said, I'm going to take a hit on my insurance starting Jan 1st my rates go up (NOT DOWN) thanks to this complete and total idiot we have for a president!!! This presidency has affected me more on a personal level than any other nit-wit that has ever been in charge. I pay more for gas, ammo, guns, food, and now insurance. I'm trying to think of one really good thing he's done for this country. Sorry drawing a blank on that.

[Captain]

The SOB ain't done nothing good for this country. Starting with when he was running for office the first time. He sat in Rev. Wrights church for 20 years listening to him spewing anti white hate messages and anti American messages and he said he didn't hear any of it. Lier... And he ain't heard or been informed on one thing since. He is a POS of the first order.

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[Penguin]

Lol, it is a damned mess for sure.

But let's be honest, it has been a damned mess for a long, long time. This latest round of fixes just made it a bit worse. Trying to trim around the edges with this system is futile. We're going to have to tear it down. Major surgery so to speak. In the end we will probably end up treating healthcare like a utility. We will probably be forced to by price alone.

Will

[quercus alba]

He is a POS of the first order.

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They all are, some more then others.

A man walks into a bar. He sees a good-looking, smartly dressed woman sitting on the barstool.
He walks up behind her and says, "Hi there, how's it going?"
Having already had a few drinks, she turns around, faces him, looks him straight in the eyes and says, "Listen! I'll screw anybody, any time, anywhere, your place, my place, it doesn't matter.
He says, "No kidding, I'm a politican too. Republican or democrat?"

[Captain]

They all are, some more then others.

QA that where we will disagree. I don't think they all are. I think some truly run and hold office to try to do good or right by Americans.

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[quercus alba]

generalization Capn'. They be few and far between tho

[Buckrub]

2 guys in camp had their insurance cancelled and that company went totally out of business. They are 100% screwed.

And nowhere in any of these discussions has a doctor come on TV and said whether he'd even accept this 3rd rate insurance that may or may not be available.

[Buckrub]

Penguin I gotta call BS.

It wasn't broke for me.

I had insurance that I could afford, that covered every CONSIDERABLE thing wrong with me that every doctor accepted. My self employed friends were covered. That was a great system and The Great Destroyer killed it forever.

Those that didn't have insurance either didn't need or want it or got free care.

I call major BS.

[Chicken Dinner]

Not defending the disaster that is Obamacare, but the freeriders may not have been paying for their care. But, someone was.

[Buckrub]

I repeat....

I realize I was......

But at a rate far less than I now pay and MY coverage eroded.

[Buckrub]

And Hank.....This system won't fix that problem anyway.

The freeloaders still won't pay and still have to receive care by law....free.

Some.....A very few....will not buy it and be fined a measly $95.00.

Others, like my brother, who is not ever going to buy insurance period......can't be fined $95.00 because he hasn't filed 1040 in 30 years and won't. But it doesn't matter because this great new system bailed him out by giving him free medicaid. So instead of me and you paying for ER visit every 5 years we are now paying through the nose every month so he can be covered.

Tell me again One problem this new deal solved.

[Captain]

And Hank.....This system won't fix that problem anyway. The freeloaders still won't pay and still have to receive care by law....free.

100% correct

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[Penguin]

Penguin I gotta call BS.

It wasn't broke for me.

I had insurance that I could afford, that covered every CONSIDERABLE thing wrong with me that every doctor accepted. My self employed friends were covered. That was a great system and The Great Destroyer killed it forever.

Those that didn't have insurance either didn't need or want it or got free care.

I call major BS.

That's just not true. And just saying that someone "has insurance" is meaningless. What is covered? What are the caps? What are the deductibles? Etc. A whole hell of a lot of these guys who are out of insurance now had their insurance cancelled because it was junk insurance. Insurance in name only. Didn't even meet the meager standards that Obamacare instituted.

Catastrophic health care costs are the number one reason for personal bankruptcy in this nation. And this is nothing new. Let that sink in. The NUMBER ONE reason for personal bankruptcy in this nation is having health care costs overwhelm personal finances. And if someone loses their job? Any major health issue at all will completely wipe you out. Unless you have COBRA. And that alone is beyond most people who lose jobs.

And we have what, 40-odd million people without health insurance at all? In America? And who the hell pays for these guys when they end up having a heart attack or a stroke? Or a car accident? Or anything serious at all? Well, after they are bankrupted you and I will. That's who. No this is a racket. An abomination. We pay more per capita taxes to pay for just our retired people than Canada does for their entire population.

The answer, as I said, is obvious. If you truly do believe that the free market can produce better results then you better get busy. In the end this system will get reformed or it will get scrapped. It will not be out of ideology it will be out of necessity. In a world where goods are traded across borders we simply will not be able to afford the most inefficient healthcare system in the world.

Will

[Buckrub]

If you think that all the uninsured were poor people that deeply desired health insurance but we're denied by the evil system, then I believe you have drunk from a koolaid trough of which I won't sip.

And no one can "get busy" and fix the private system. It's been destroyed.

And that terrible inefficient system served most of us well and was jerked from us.

Agghhhh.

[Buckrub]

Willy

If you are right and I am wrong, tell me how this new system fixes that?

It doesn't. See above.

[Penguin]

It served ~you~ well.

It served ~me~ well.

It even served ~a lot~ of folks well.

But for this nation as a whole it has been a catastrophe! We devote more of our national income to health care than any nation on earth. And as a nation have less to show for it than nations that spend half as much. It doesn't seem to matter what system our competitors employ as each and every system they use garners better national results at a much lower cost.

That is inefficiency. In bold type.

We just simply cannot afford the luxury of having a system that costs so much and adds so little to the national landscape. It is one of the reasons we are going bankrupt. Each and every year our household income is stagnant and our health care costs go up substantially. We can't afford the graft. We can't afford the corruption. We cannot afford the monopolies and insulation from competition.

In the end it will be cold hard numbers that force us to change. We are being beat on cost by everyone in the world. These costs, not some imagined communist boogeyman, will be the reason we abandon this system.

Will

[Buckrub]

You are the smartest man I know. But I disagree.

[Penguin]

I'm not the smartest, just the most outspoken. :)

But I am saying this not to pick a fight but as a warning. Healthcare is a subject that can get folks absolutely bonkers. I'm seeing movement on the opinion of healthcare and it is not what I see conservatives expecting. People are extremely upset about the ACA but are equally upset at the overall trajectory of it with or without the latest tweak.

If conservatives want to bring their ideas to the table now is the time. Standing back and criticizing the current law while implicitly accepting the old system won't buy you much time. A whole hell of a lot of folks consider the old system to be equally broken. And I'm not talking about starry eyed young people or hangers on. I'm seeing real live businessmen and skilled workers who are just plain fed up.

The costs have got to go down. If you want to use market forces to do that then now is the time to start putting forth real live proposals. I'm not sure stalking horses will do anything more than guarantee that we go to a single payer system in the long term.

Will

[Buckrub]

New procedures and drugs cost a fortune. That's life.

The percent of people served well by the old system far outweigh in numbers and productivity. ......by an order of magnitude. ....The percent served by this new system.

Rant all u want......but if this is the fix to your pet set of problems, then the world is doomed.

It appears to my feeble brain that the goal of all this was to eliminate private insurance companies and let the Great Nanny State take care of us all.

[Penguin]

New procedures and drugs cost a fortune. That's life...


It appears to my feeble brain that the goal of all this was to eliminate private insurance companies and let the Great Nanny State take care of us all.

That depends on who you are. The way the system works now WE pay for all the research to come up with those new procedures and drugs. For the whole world. WE pay their expenses and THEY get these new drugs and procedures. A hell of a lot of them specifically won't allow payment for all this fancy, expensive research. And not only do we allow this goat fuck to continue but we get all of these free market ideologues defending the current arrangement and giving us lectures on respecting intellectual property.

And subsidies? Nanny state? Do you know that currently the only single type of compensation that an employer can give to a worker tax free is health care? And the only single type of compensation that a worker can take from his employer tax free is health care? We subsidize the system on both ends of the transaction. To the tune of over 250 Billion USD every, single, year.

I disagree with the sentiment that this was done to get the Nanny state involved. This was an attempt to tweak the system without making waves. Trying to make an omelette without breaking eggs. Trying to figure out some way to get more people insured without cutting profit margins for doctors and hospital chains and insurance companies and every other swinging dick getting their share of the graft. It didn't work. It won't work. At least in my humble opinion.

Will

[Captain]

How is making all those Elderly men carry and pay for maternity issuance a good thing?

What Will the Obummer decide next that we had to buy?

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[Penguin]

It's not a good thing. I'm not saying that what we got with ACA is correct/just/right/etc.

But those type of things pale in comparison with what the rest of us, as taxpayers and policy holders, have to pony up in order to pay for all the uninsured. Cost shifting makes this type of thing seem like stealing company pencils. And I am sick and tired of all of these John Wayne types who refuse to buy insurance and then end up costing the rest of us a fortune when they inevitably get sick.

If I drew up a plan from scratch that is the first thing I would change: Everybody pays something. There should be some kind of a minimum payment that is enough to get everyone interested in taking care of themselves. Period. The way the system works now we have all the wrong influences. It pushes people to not care what something costs or how they take care of themselves.

Will

[DeputyDog]

Who should have to pay for the research and testing?

Doesn't any business, whether it be the auto industry or electronic industry or whatever, pass the cost of their R&D onto their consumers? And shouldn't that company that develops a new drug or procedure receive the benefit of their work? You know that first hand. When you were working for the race team, if you developed something that would help your cars, did you run out and share it with every other team in the paddock?

Do you think that if someone refuses to buy coverage or insufficient coverage for what's wrong with them, we should just refuse them treatment? Or how about cutting people off from treatment once they get to a certain age since their usefullness to society is past and they are becoming a drain on everyone else?

[Penguin]

Who should have to pay for the research and testing?

Ideally the people who pay are those who use the products. That is what I am saying. WE as US health care consumers pay for all of that research that the rest of the world consumes. They allow very little of those costs to be passed on. Which is one of the main reasons that drugs are so much cheaper in Canada or England or France or practically any other nation that you could name. They refuse to pay for it. They do it by various methods but in the end they slice out a very large part of the R&D costs. Which leaves you know who to pick up the tab.

And we call that Free Trade. ~argh~

Will

[Buckrub]

So should we invade them?

Or keep producing and paying for neat stuff?

Which?

[Captain]

Cost shifting makes this type of thing seem like stealing company pencils. And I am sick and tired of all of these John Wayne types who refuse to buy insurance and then end up costing the rest of us a fortune when they inevitably get sick.

OBummer care did nothing to fix this. Other than collect a tax for bring a "John Wayne" type. And I'd be willing to bet you most of those fines "taxes" would never get collected. But we would have 1600 new IRS agents tracking the non payments....

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[Penguin]

We should step up and actually negotiate an end to this type of bullshit. Failing that we should either outlaw exports or allow imports... depending on one's economic outlook. Or slap tariffs on their incoming goods to make things even out. What should absolutely not do is allow this parasitic behavior to continue.

Trade done in fair ways is hard work. It is frustrating to get real deals done. It makes you negotiate with those who have objectives diametrically opposed to you. But it is worth doing.

What we have done for the last 40 years is just agree to anything that makes it more difficult for our productive economy to compete. Just so long as we figure out a way to protect our financial sector and make sure they get their share of graft when the tally is taken.

Will

[Buckrub]

Won't work.

Here are your three choices. Pick only one:

1. Stop producing new drugs and procedures.

2. Keep producing and paying for them ourselves.

3. Invade and take their share of it forcibly.

No other viable choice.

Pick one.

[Penguin]

OBummer care did nothing to fix this. Other than collect a tax for bring a "John Wayne" type. And I'd be willing to bet you most of those fines "taxes" would never get collected. But we would have 1600 new IRS agents tracking the non payments....

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I honestly thought this ~might~ be one of the few things that ACA got right. And in the end they fucked this up too. :p

But I kept hearing anarchists and right wingers railing against "gubmint making them buy insurance". All along this is one area where I just don't and won't agree. Everybody pays... cause in the end every is going to get treatment if they need it.

Will

[Penguin]

Won't work.

Here are your three choices. Pick only one:

1. Stop producing new drugs and procedures.

2. Keep producing and paying for them ourselves.

3. Invade and take their share of it forcibly.

No other viable choice.

Pick one.

There is a viable choice. If you want R&D to continue and think it important, then you slap an import tariff on them and make them pay up!

What the hell?

Will

[Captain]

There is a viable choice. If you want R&D to continue and think it important, then you slap an import tariff on them and make them pay up! What the hell? Will.
Then you are going to has to repel Klintons NAFTA

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[Penguin]

Good. It should have never been enacted in the first place.

Our so called Free Trade Pacts are filled with examples just like this. Time after time US workers/citizens getting it in the shorts while connected and powerful interests make billions hand over fist. One after another these things tilt the playing field in favor of our trading partners.

Will

[Thumper]

I've pretty much avoided getting involved with this particular controversy only because it has no effect on me personally. That may sound "selfish", but I just have the feeling there's nothing I can do about it. I voted against the asshole and was outvoted, so I did what I could .. to no avail. MY health coverage will not be affected in any way and Lynn's company (Hyatt) says there will be no change in their coverage (which has held true so far), so I've concentrated on other pressing personal issues and steered away from this subject a bit. I'll simply go on the record to say we now have the most incompetent President in my lifetime ... and quite possibly the worst in the history of this country. He's done more harm to this country than he's done good ... in fact, I can't think of ANYTHING he's done "good" for the country.

That said, Penguin ... I REALLY appreciate and admire your intelligent input and insight. Interesting reading IMHO.

[LJ3]

That said, Penguin ... I REALLY appreciate and admire your intelligent input and insight. Interesting reading IMHO.

Pretty sure he already has a girlfriend Jimmy, that's kinda gross.


I wish I understood half of what Willie did about global economies. I lack the time, and most likely the ability, to understand things at that global view.

I do think reform is less likely as time passes.

[Thumper]

Pretty sure he already has a girlfriend Jimmy, that's kinda gross.

DAMN!! ;)

[Buckrub]

Willy,
I don't think your ideas are bad. I just can't help but think you are a starry eyed liberal if you think any of that is remotely possible.

I see the pendulum way more towards total appeasement rather than towards any of your ideas. Who on the horizon would even consider implementing those ideas?

[Gunther]

Chilly Willie, BS. Was it perfect? Hell no! Why? Government control and people who didn't pay. Now there will be more government and less people that pay.

Yes some people don't deserve health care. PERIOD.

[Big Boy]

I don't care what the problem is. The answer is not insurance. If anyone thinks we need insurance, there's problem but insurance is NOT the answer.

[Penguin]

Starry eyed liberal? Bah! That is the background ideology speaking. It infiltrates everything it seems.

Taking control of trade and seeing to it that it actually benefits US workers/citizens is not liberalism, it the job of anyone elected to office in this country. What we call "Free Trade" is nothing more than international wage arbitrage. We have seen to it that trade intentionally knocks down the standard of living for US workers... and then act shocked when the middle class actually starts winding down. WTF? That is what it was designed to do. Only the most simpleton of citizens still buys the neoliberal garbage that the economic anarchists and Ayn Rand disciples spew.

Over the past 3 or 4 decades that we have been executing this grand experiment it has played out exactly like all of those manufacturers and nationalists and union members and all those other unsophisticated know-nothings said it would. It has been a complete disaster. The only thing that masked it was a series of bubbles and an evergrowing household debt. When those came to an end? Stagnation. The only thing keeping us out of a complete full blown depression is the public debt. At this point there are no good options. There is only what we want to look like at the end.

Right now there are 3 areas where the US is ~so~ uncompetitive that we simply cannot continue business as usual and expect to survive intact: Health care, education, and housing. We pay more for these things than any other nation on earth. It is why the middle class has shrunk so much. Health care in particular is THE reason why you see all those scary long term projections of the US fiscal position.

I think you guys are misunderstanding me so I am going to be blunt here, what we have now is terrible. What we had was terrible. Going back to what we had 3 months ago is not the answer. We have to cut costs. Probably by as much as 40% to 50% to remain solvent long term. There is simply no other course of action. Doctors are going to have to have a much lower standard of living. They live in a poorer nation now, the middle class has fallen on its ass. Their salaries are going to have to reflect this. Hospitals are going to have to make less money, monopoly chains of hospitals are going to have to be broken up. Insurance companies will probably have to be euthanized. We cannot afford a middle man scraping 10% to 20% off the top. We simply can do it any longer.

That is why I am telling you that we can't work on the fringes and get this straightened out. This is major reconstruction we are talking about. This isn't ideology or starry eyed liberalism here, these are cold hard facts. This system will go away because we can't afford to have a system that costs this much and provides worse outcomes on a national level. No nation on earth could. It is not that I ~want~ the system to die, it is because when you look at it without sentiment it ~must~ die for the rest of the nation to remain competitive.

Will

[Buckrub]

Love ya man.

But I ain't backing off.

1. Doctors and hospitals will never lower their top shelf incomes. Dream on Oh starry eyed one. What kids will do is stop becoming doctors. What a great system that will be. I've heard every talking head and Pol yap on this and no one is interviewing doctors to see what they think.

2. I sum up your stuff here with "This can't continue because it isn't fair and isn't efficient." Haha.

If that makes things get fixed, explain government to me!!

[Buckrub]

BTW Willy, the whole world is in a "Haves" vs "Have-Nots" fight. It's over everything. Health care and insurance to pay for it is maybe tops but still only one item.

Haves will not change the systems merely because they are unfair. And they make all the rules.

[Penguin]

Fair has nothing to do with it.

At this point I am talking cold hard facts. This nation has become a poorer one for the majority of citizens over the past few decades. The middle class is the one that paid for healthcare. It is if not gone it is at least much lessened. Sorry but medicine cannot remain as extravagant as it is now because the financial pillar that props it up is much weaker.

But they aren't the only ones. Higher education and housing are going to have to become much less costly as well. It isn't a choice it is a necessity. And the simple fact is that those who benefit from having outsized pricing for healthcare, housing, and higher education are going to take a hit. A big one. Finance enabled this BS and they are at the root of the problem.

It is called the FIRE economy. It ~must~ go down. Has to. A lot of white collars are going to have to get dirty. We are going to have to get back to a more basic produce/consume economy. The only question is how long we will keep digging the hole trying to retain this imaginary economy. Asset price inflation is not the basis of a healthy economy. Neither is overpriced healthcare and education.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

I will admit to not reading all of the posts in this thread and I have been avoiding putting in my two cents, just because I am sure y'all are tired of hearing about it. But here is an opinion from a slightly different angle. Conservatives speak of entitlement and they are typically talking about welfare. But they seldom talk about the entitlement programs for corporations. Democrats talk of welfare and they are typically talking about helping people. But they seldom talk about how welfare is just as socially erosive as poverty. But face it. In America, we have created a government that doesn't just govern the business of the nation, but one that protects, promotes, and enables a way of life. We have artificially low food costs. We have artificially low energy costs. We have artificially low housing costs. and to make it all work, we have artificially low interest rates so we can create new businesses and buy new stuff. Our entire economy is based on a manufactured set of costs that enable us to maintain a standard of living that is considered 'American'. Its our right, our entitlement. When our old people were living in poverty and dying in squalor, we invented Medicare. It was meant as a way to access affordable health care for those who no longer worked and couldn't afford health care. Now it is viewed as a retirement plan, along with social security. Its an inalienable right. Republican, Democrats, Tea Partiers, you name it, will all line up at the government trough and it won't matter one whit whether they have a demonstrable need. They paid taxes goddammit and they want their medicare. Its the same with social security. Its gotten to where now, Social Security is not a security net for retired people, its the main part of a lot of people's retirement plans. And we're all entitled to it whether we've worked or not, whether we've scrimped and saved and planned for our retirements or not. Whether any of this is right or wrong is not the point. The point is that we depend on governmental regulation to maintain our entire way of life and we depend on government programs to make our golden years golden. And if you think anyone in this country carries their own freight, you're sadly mistaken. Which is why I find this whole argument about whether Obamacare is 'European style socialism' totally bogus. We have made socialism work in America and we've done it while maintaining a steady denial of all things socialistic. NAFTA was brought up in this conversation and talked about like it was the worse thing in the world. Yet, US trade to North American partners has increased to over a trillion dollars. 30% of all farm exports go to Canada and Mexico. Trade has increased 156% to Canada and Mexico under NAFTA while it's grown 65% to other countries. We have a trade surplus with our neighbors which is a good thing. And NAFTA does what all conservative want; it reduced government interference in trade and thus reduced the cost of trade. But its still a government program meant to maintain our economy and our way of life. Again, an entitlement program.
I say this to create a context to say this about Obamacare or any government subsidized health care model. Its just another way of making an important part of every family's budget affordable. Its what we do in America for virtually every one of our essential needs. And if you think America is jacked up now, just imagine what it would be like without those things propping us up.

And one last comment, I agree with Deputy; this really isn't about insurance. this is about cost. ACA doesn't do shit about health care cost as far as I can see which is its greatest weakness. All it does is treat the symptom not the problem. But I'm gonna vote for whoever or whatever makes our American way of life possible. and I'm gonna vote against anybody who tries to tell me I'm immoral for thinking otherwise.

BKB

[Buckrub]

My fingers are too cold to type all the examples but. .........

I just seem to have a different perspective from folks. I don't see we are a poorer nation in the last few decades. I live in the poorest state but I see nothing but wealth.

Every car has one driver. Road construction abounds nnonstop no matter fuel costs. Housing starts are down but not fancy apartments which have exploded. I made a small percentage of what most of you make and I have a Home, Two Old But Nice Vehicles, A wheely, A Boat A Chain Saw AND 11 Pairs Of boots.

And entitlement is misused. Social security is my entitlement because I'm entitled to it. I paid 7 % of my income for it, Jack. That ain't a giveaway like food stamps or welfare. Geez. To equate those is insane. I'd have opted out if I could have!!

now. ....The system that got us all this wasn't fair. Nope. But the only one that I know of that is fair is the opportunity for salvation. Every other one is unequal.

Besides, that's a misuse of the word "fair". Fairness and equality are not the same. Sounds like you guys really want equality not fairness. BS.

Posthole's income and nd mine are not equal. But that is imminently fair!

[Penguin]

Household income has been stagnant for over 30 years.

Corrected for inflation the average household has the about the same income as it had when the Carter/Reagan election was coming down the pike. Has health care stayed even when considering inflation? Has a decent college education? Has housing? ~snort~

There are a myriad of ways to jimmy the stats to mask this. Heaven knows we are world class at that. We have an inflation stat that is almost laughable in its impotence and its stark difference from how the rest of the world computes it. Same for unemployment. Same for a hell of a lot of political hot potatoes. But there a couple that jump off the page to me. They're a payoff of all of these other jimmied stats: Disposable household income and total household debt.

Disposable income is down compared to in the 70s and 80s. Way down. And household debt is up. Way up. We are a poorer nation with cooler toys.

Will

[Buckrub]

Guess they were free then.....

[BarryBobPosthole]

That 7% you paid in is a tax, not an investment. You paid 7% while a lot of other social security recipients didn't pay in half that if any at all. And I'm not saying you shouldn't get social security or even have to prove you need it to get it. I'm just using it as yet another example of the inaccurate viewpoint that somehow Obamacare is going to make us a welfare state. And that's in a state with government ran retirement (social security), government ran health insurance (Medicare), government ran food industry, government ran energy industry, government ran housing industry, and a government ran education system. We make the chinese look like Tea Partiers.

BKB

[Penguin]

Guess they were free then.....

Of course they weren't. But just they took up less of a household budget than they do now. These were considered middle class staples. Now they are getting a little bit more out of reach every year. Have been for decades. This is what I mean by getting poorer.

The system came to the end of the line with the housing crash. That was the system letting us know that we had crossed a line. So what was our response? We brought to full weight of the Treasury Dept. and Federal Reserve to bear to arrest the housing price crash. It worked. We managed to keep housing prices inflated by having these two branches of government purchase about 4 Trillion USD worth of overpriced mortgage debt. We have even managed to reinflate housing prices about 10% in the past year in the complete absence of underlying demand from household formation. And the central bank shovels another 80 Billion USD into this morass each and every month.

Congratulations Washington DC! We managed to keep from taking a huge concrete step in lowering the cost of living, and therefore the cost of labor, in the US. Our trading partners thank you.

Will

[Buckrub]

Life's gotten better for everyone I know in last 40 years. Even the poorest have cell phones, cars, satellite tv, food.

I just don't see or buy much of your position.

And as to postholes claim that government made great things possible, I say no....they occurred in spite of government and would have been even greater if the elitist government idiots let private folks decide their own fate.

[Penguin]

Life's gotten better for everyone I know in last 40 years. Even the poorest have cell phones, cars, satellite tv, food.

I just don't see or buy much of your position.


Household formation at an all time low. Labor force participation rates not seen since the early 80s. Population and fertility rates that would be shrinking in the absence of immigration. Per capita public sector debt that is approaching average medium income. Household debt at unimaginable heights 5 years after the housing bubble burst highs. Unprecedented numbers of those under 30 living at home. Education debt levels at astronomic highs and no sign of even leveling off any time soon.

This aren't the credentials of a prospering nation. These are 3rd world numbers. Strip away the demand that has been brought forward by various types of debt and you have a depression.

A poor nation with fancy toys.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

You've missed my point Bucky. My point is we got what we demanded from our government. We created this by insisting that it is our God given right for every American to have an opportunity to maintain an American standard of living and we use our government as the most powerful tool we have to make sure that we keep it propped up. Our food (yeah food again) and agri industries for example. Richard Nixon didn't order Earl Butz to create a military-industrial complex based system. He ordered him to hold food prices low so he could get friggin re-elected. Food prices at that time weren't micromanaged by the government and inflation was making household economies go in the shitter. We voted for what we've got with our feet. And its the same with everything else. Government has only done what we've demanded of it, both conservative and liberal.

BKB

[Thumper]

I have to say I've traveled to MANY countries that have let their people decide their own fate and things generally don't go well. Nothing like seeing mothers sitting along the sidewalk holding their sick children while holding a cup begging for enough change to buy a bowl of rice. There's no good answer and our government is fubar'd ... but it's the best in the world. I'm all for social programs ... but I despise those who take the system and work it to their advantage, fraudulently.

[Penguin]

Interesting read over at Naked Capitalism from someone who ~used~ to support the ACA. Right up until he got into the nuts and bolts of how it works. NC is an excellent blog and almost always fact filled. I recommend a stop there occasionally for anyone, especially conservatives who believe that they have a corner on facts. Yves will sometimes amaze you with the inside scoop on how policies really work. In this post she puts up the lamentations of someone who thought this was an improvement. ~snort~

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/11/michael-olenick-obamacare-pits-the-50-against-the-49.html

Money Quotes:

"This is the sorry state of the Affordable Care Act, the ultimate betrayal of the self-employed middle class who are supposed to magically produce income to single-handedly support those who are uninsurable. As I demonstrated in prior articles this promise, when objectively judged, borders on sadistic...."

"... this is the 50% against the other 49%. More than that, the 1% will look on amused as these awful overpriced plans seem almost calculated to bring about a Republican landslide in the next election."

END QUOTE

Bwahahahahaha! I still cannot believe that so many Democrats don't understand that this guy is not their friend. He is a right leaning corporatist who is liberal on social issues. The guy's a shill. And ACA is nothing more than a wet dream for those who make their living in the health care industry. This whole thing did nothing to lower costs. Even worse it puts additional costs on those who are self employed. He's right, it is sadistic.

I just don't know why it is taking everyone so long to figure it out!

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

Penguin, its the ONLY plan anyone ever put out there for consideration. I don't know of any serious comprehensive plan put forth by anybody to actually fix the problem and not the symptom.

somebody has to take it in the shorts to reduce costs. You don't actually think the people that make their dough off of the current system is going to pay for it did you?

BKB

[Penguin]

Penguin, its the ONLY plan anyone ever put out there for consideration. I don't know of any serious comprehensive plan put forth by anybody to actually fix the problem and not the symptom.

somebody has to take it in the shorts to reduce costs. You don't actually think the people that make their dough off of the current system is going to pay for it did you?

BKB

Point one is a good one. You are right. There is nothing coming from either the right or the left. Everyone is still talking as if going back to the system prior to ACA is actually a long term option. It isn't. But more than a little I blame BHO for that. He shortcircuited the talks from the outset and pushed for an insurance company wet dream. Let's be honest, this thing was thought up by the Heritage Foundation as a "free market" way to reform the system. It was and is a joke.

Point two? My answer: Yes I do. Absolutely I do.

They ~will~ take a hit. A big one. A huge one. Their salaries are going to come into line with what the rest of the 1st world pays for their healthcare providers. The only question that remains is ~how~ this takes place. We can all sit down like adults and discuss this rationally. We can come up with solutions that incorporate US preferences and attitudes but at the same time uses lessons that world wide have been learned about how to provide health care at reasonable costs.

OR we can keep going until the system crashes.

Everything that affects costs is going to have to be rethought. How education for HC works. How long it takes. Who pays. Who decides how many seat in the classroom are available. Who pays for residencies. How are hospital chains regulated or broken up. What type of administration takes place. Who decides what is covered. Who negotiates drug purchases. And all of the things I brought up earlier in this thread. And a bunch more we haven't thought of.

As time goes by we are seeing more and more thrown out of our HC system. We have a thousand and one ways in which these costs are passed on to others. We subsidize the system more than any other save maybe the financial system. It will end. The question is whether we do it as adults of just wait for it to come apart at the seams.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

The only thing I'll add is that there was no way ANY reform of health care was going to be adopted unless it was railroaded through the process. If people don't like that, screw 'em. Stop being so obstructionist and the railroad jobs from both sides of the aisle will be reduced. ACA is the unfortunate child born of the political climate in our country. Do you remember Clinton's attempt at health care reform? It contained many of the reforms that are now being suggested by the Mayo Clinic and such. I'm not saying it was perfect or even a good plan. What I am saying is that the conservative side was so obstructionist, and largely aided by the insurance industry lobby, that any reform was DOA. Thus we have the railroaded through piece of shit we have today.

BKB

[Captain]

The saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is all I'm going to say....
This is what you get when you do....

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Penguin]

It is a good point Barry.

But there are some battles that are fought with the full knowledge that you are going to lose. Sometimes those are the battles most worth fighting. And often they lead to bigger victories down the road. I think was one of those times and I said so from the outset. The trouble was that we have a president who did not believe in the fight from the beginning. I know that many liberals and moderates are loath to admit it but I really do think that this is what he believes in.

At some point I think it is a lot like Bill Parcells said "You are what your record says you are."

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

And that's where we fundamentally disagree. The health care system is WAY broken. And no, we don't have the best health care in the world. Not even close.

BKB

[Penguin]

And that's where we fundamentally disagree. The health care system is WAY broken. And no, we don't have the best health care in the world. Not even close.

BKB

Amen.

[BarryBobPosthole]

It is a good point Barry.

But there are some battles that are fought with the full knowledge that you are going to lose. Sometimes those are the battles most worth fighting. And often they lead to bigger victories down the road. I think was one of those times and I said so from the outset. The trouble was that we have a president who did not believe in the fight from the beginning. I know that many liberals and moderates are loath to admit it but I really do think that this is what he believes in.

At some point I think it is a lot like Bill Parcells said "You are what your record says you are."

Will

There doesn't appear to be any art left in politics any more. Nor is there any patience with or belief in the process. That may be the thing most responsible for the current climate. Compromise that brings some progress is viewed as a compromise of one's ethical beliefs. and why compromise at all when there's little or no value in it at the polls next election?

There will be a time, I don't know when, when Republicans hold a majority in both the house and senate and possibly sit in the Oval office at the same time. then ACA will be repealed. and there will be a time again when Democrats hold those same positions and heaven knows what we'll get then. It doesn't have to be that way, but if the people on this site are any example at all of the constituencies, I don't see anything else happening. and that is a sad state of affairs.

BKB