And yes....

[BarryBobPosthole]

....this embarrassing piece of legislation is what our state legislature considers a priority. We rank 43rd in public education, almost dead last in expenditures per student, and one of the highest states for teen pregnancies. We're having to lay off teachers still in our major cities, delay hiring firemen and police in our two major cities because of low revenues (we do balance our budgets which I'll say is a great thing). and yes, our legislative priorities is this bullshit and defending the monument to the ten commandments at the state capitol. This is our state 'Tea Party' legislative agenda. This is what you get when you thought you were going to get common sense governance.
BKB


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/01/10/oklahoma-bill-would-ease-school-policies-on-toy-guns/

OKLAHOMA CITY – Schoolchildren in Oklahoma could not be punished for chewing their breakfast pastries into the shape of a gun under a bill introduced this week by a Republican legislator.

Rep. Sally Kern said Wednesday her measure dubbed the Common Sense Zero Tolerance Act was in response to school districts having policies that are too strict or inflexible.

Kern cited a recent Maryland case that gained national media attention where a boy was suspended after his teacher accused him of chewing his Pop Tart into the shape of a gun.

"Real intent, real threats and real weapons should always be dealt with immediately. We need to stop criminalizing children's imagination and childhood play," Kern, Republican from Oklahoma City told News9.com.

"If there's no real intent, there's no real threat, no real weapon, no real harm is occurring or going to occur, why in the world are we in a sense abusing our children like this."

Under Kern's bill, students couldn't be punished for possessing small toy weapons or using writing utensils, fingers or their hands to simulate a weapon. Students also couldn't be punished for drawing pictures of weapons or wearing clothes that “support or advance Second Amendment rights or organizations.”

News9.com reported that Kern's proposal was met with immediate opposition from the Oklahoma Education Association.

"The proposed legislation removes local control from teachers, counselors, administrators and local school boards. Educators are degreed professionals, trained and experienced in dealing with children," Linda Hampton, president of the Oklahoma Education Association, told the station.

In Maryland, Republican state Sen. J.B. Jennings introduced a similar bill last year that would prohibit schools from suspending students for seemingly harmless childish acts, such as playing games with fingers pointed like guns or chewing food into the shape of a firearm.

In July, Rep. Steve Stockman, R-Texas, introduced the Student Protection Act, which aims to stop the enforcement of policies that "punish innocent children" by cutting funds to schools with excessive "zero tolerance" weapons policies.

Under the bill, which schools would face cuts in federal funding if they punish students for specific activities, including carrying a toy gun, using a finger or hand to simulate a gun and wearing a T-shirt that supports Second Amendment rights.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[Captain]

What's being proposed makes sense to me? What is it you are complaining about? The 10 commandments? I didn't read about that anywhere in the article. Just a law putting common sense in play that keeps kids from being expelled for pointing a finger like a gun or wearing a NRA T-Shirt to school.

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[BarryBobPosthole]

We don't need to legislate everything Larke, especially common sense. Nobody in Oklahoma has had this problem, no teachers have made this an issue, no schools have draconian rules. This is something that happened in Maryland, which is about as different from Oklahoma as night and day.
Its a waste of time is my point, when there's other things we need to be working on that NOTHING is being done on. But our kids sure won't be getting in trouble for what they do with their damned pop tarts I guess.

And I got in trouble in school for not having my shirttail tucked in and hair past my collar. Think I'm worried about some friggin kid's right to wear whatever tee shirt he wants to? Hell, we weren't even allowed to wear tee shirts to school. they were considered UNDERWEAR.

BKB

[Captain]

Ok that clears it up for me. I didn't understand that you were not having a problem. I agree that you cannot legislate in common sense, however what I see some of these type proposals is trying fix situations and laws where common sense has been legislated OUT.... I guess a repair job If you will.
Again I understand better now your issue since you told me this has not been an issue in your state.

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[BarryBobPosthole]

Yep, all I'm saying is this stuff seems to be the priority when we have some things in my state that I consider a much higher priority. I'm proud of where I live and the amount of liberty we have compared to some other parts of the US. And that includes teachers too, which is what this legislation is all about: trying to legislate what in a teacher's judgement is right or wrong. One of the things that I believe made me a better person were the teachers in my life. They had the trust and support of my parents and their judgement wasn't questioned. Granted there were bad teachers but they got my parent's support too. I'm not at all sure what the answer to how to get rid of bad teachers, but I can tell you it isn't by taking away teacher's ability to judge situations for themselves through this kind of legislation.

BKB

[Captain]

Understood and agree...
This is a true as a bible story. The first handgun I ever bought I bought in Ag class my Junior year. It was a Ruger .22 MarkX or something like that. I'll never forget taking the slide off of it and as anyone knows it just don't Go back on.... The teacher helped me put it all back together.
Nothing was ever said about it and it was not looked at strangely.

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[BarryBobPosthole]

I hear ya. I drove to school many times with my shotgun in my car or truck because I was either coming from or going to hunt somewhere. And it was common to see pickups in the student parking lot with shotguns or rifles in the rifle racks. Its a new world nowadays though.

BKB

[Niner]

Barry, maybe I'm wrong....but the way I read this is that it is supposed to take away the stupid "zero tolerance" rules ans put some control of the classroom back into the teachers hands.

Back when I was a senior in high school, I took metal shop. The teacher put me on the metal lathe. After learning how to run it and making several of the assigned projects, he gave me a plan book and told me to pick out a project for my final exam grade for the quarter. I picked out a set of plans for a canon about 5" long. He told me that would be fine, but it HAD TO SHOOT. I made it exactly to the specs of the plans, then bored out the barrel and drilled a touch hole. For my final exam, the teacher measured it to ensure I had made it to specs, then said "let's see it shoot". I had brought a little black powder from home, so I put some in the barrel, and used a bit of paper towel for wadding. Then I put it into a vise, ground up some of the ffg into a fine powder and put it over the touch hole and lit it off. After the BOOM, I got an A+ for the class. If that happened nowadays, both the teacher and I would be thrown under the jail. By the way.....I still have my little canon to this day!

[BarryBobPosthole]

Well, that kind of proves my point. We don't have these zero tolerance rules. and what this actually about is the teacher's interpretation of the rules, not the rules themselves. That's what administration and the process is about. I'm just saying if we don't like the way teachers interpret the rules, then define the rules themselves, don't take away the ability of teachers to use judgement of what those rules mean. Its just kind of an ass backwards approach is what I'm saying.

BKB

[Niner]

Oh. In that case, I see what you mean. If y'all don't have zero tol rules, then they are creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
:huh. :banghead:crazy

[BarryBobPosthole]

Exactly.

BKB

[Buckrub]

You seriously think that OK has no such laws???

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/01/21/gun-hand-gesture-gets-oklahoma-1st-grader-suspended/

And the argument of "We shouldn't be addressing this thing that I don't like, because there are more important things to do" is bogus. Life is not serial.

[BarryBobPosthole]

That one case (from 2011) that was handled properly by the administration of the school. any kid can be disruptive and this first grader was. this wasn't an issue of the gesture being the problem, the obnoxious kid was the problem. And you think we should legislate away the school teacher's ability to discipline a disruptive kid just because its gun related? Please. He could be making fart noises and those aren't illegal either. Why don't you legislate that? Nothing ever came of that old case and it was handled as it should have been. Nowhere does it say the gesture itself was the issue. It was the disprutiveness of the little kid.

Keep digging.

[Buckrub]

Nah. You're the expert.

I just don't think that the entire OK state legislature is trying to pass laws to counteract nonexistent laws................ but maybe they are.

[Thumper]

Ha! This conversation sure brings back memories of my school days. I was pretty much known as the class clown and had a habit of really stretching my teacher's patience! To be honest, we got along great ... it's just that I'd tend to keep them on the edge of their seats. :D

My speech teacher was was really hung up on "informative speeches" and we did them often. When I first started her class, she said she wanted us to have "vsiual aids" (poster, an object that was the subject of the speech, etc). Of course, the first speech I gave did not include a visual aid so she gigged me. She said the speech was perfect, but with no visual aid, I got a "B". Ok, that put my smart-ass side into motion.

My next speech, I had a burlap sack under my desk until I was called on to give my speech. I walked to the podium and the first thing we were to do was announce the subject of the speech. I started opening the top of the bag and said, "SNAKES!!!" (as I reached into the bag)

Immediately all the girls in the class started screaming and ran to the back of the class ... at the same time all the guys said, "COOL!" and moved to the front. My teacher took off out the door and it just so happened we had a student teacher in class that day, so she stayed behind. I had reached in the bag and pulled out a big ol' black snake (his name was "Slinky") and had just started my speech when the principle's voice came over the PA system. He said my name, then informed me I was to remove the snake from the classroom as soon as I finished my speech. I did as he said, I put the snake in the bag which I placed in my locker, then went by the office to let them know the teacher could go back to the class. BUT ... that wasn't the end of the excitement. I left my final class a bit early that day (before the final bell) and when I got to my locker, Slinky was GONE! He'd worked his way out of the bag and slithered out through the vent slots in my locker door. As I glanced around, all of a sudden the screaming started. I "KNEW" he'd slithered down the hallway and into a classroom. I rescued him and finally got him back home, but at least I didn't get gigged for having no visual aid! :D

My next speech was on motorcycles. My buddy (a rich kid) had a 250 Bultaco and told me I could use it. When I was called to the podium, I told the teacher I didn't bring my visual aid into class with me and I'd need a few minutes to go get it. She screamed, "It's NOT another snake, is it?" I said no, nothing like that. Then she asked if it's a tarantula or something ... and I assured her it was nothing alive. She was relieved and let me leave the classroom. Now for the fun part, NOBODY told me I wasn't allowed to ride a motorcycle down the halls! I think you can figure out the rest. ;)

I honestly think my speech teacher was HAPPY to see me graduate and move on. (I got'cher visual aid right here!) :biggrin

[BaseballCoach (Rev A)]

Not sure that I would trust a teacher's judgement. Every teacher at our local elementary school has an Obama bumper sticker. Legislating some common sense may be good thing.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I guess my take on that one coach is that if teachers have become the enemy, which is truly what a lot of conservatives do actually think, then we are in a lot deeper doo doo in education than I think we are. Since when did a teacher's politics determine what we think of their judgement as it relates to educating our kids?
That honestly just floors me.
BKB

[BaseballCoach (Rev A)]

I don't care what their politics might be if they keep it to themselves but they don't. History and Civics teachers have taught my kids that being a Democrat is to only viable option. Science teachers go on about evolution and put down creation. They have a lot of influence on a young mind.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I raised four kids and they all went through the public school system here and not once do I recall any of them ever coming home with any of that from school and I was very involved with all of my kid's school. Maybe I just got lucky.
Now I will tell you that I took issue with some of the 'developmental' theories that school counselors and teachers had regarding the way kids learn stuff.

Maybe its different elsewhere or maybe I'm just naive of it. We have a lot of teachers who post here and I'd sure like to hear their take on it.

BKB

[BaseballCoach (Rev A)]

My boys are 6th and 9th grade and they have both told me that multiple teachers have been very pro Democrat. The evolution vs creation issue was my our expierence. 6th grade earth science. 1982 or so.

[BaseballCoach (Rev A)]

I'm not saying they aren't good teachers. I think we have some of the best, our schools are always rated very highly. But, trying to sway a child's political views brings their judgement into question in my opinion.

[Chicken Dinner]

I probably live in one of the most liberal cities/counties in the US. (If a Republican candidate at any level gets more than 35% of the vote, it's considered a victory by the local Party.) My kids are in 4th and 8th grade and I have to san I've never even gotten a whiff of any of this. The local high school has a Rifle Team, my kids write about hunting and openly discuss shooting. They have even brought round balls and powder horns to class when talking about pre-Revolution history. I'd have no isssue with a history or government teacher discussing their own political views as long as it was part of the class discussion and other view points were respected.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Coach, I agree with you on that subject. I just am not aware of political views trying to be swayed in any of my kid's cases. I remember, for example, when I was in school in Civics we learned about different political parties and viewpoints and we even had some debates about them. My teachers were very conservative, but I don't remember any of them trying to convince me to be a conservative. Many people (not saying you) believe that even teaching kids what alternative views are shouldn't be allowed. We also talked about social issue in sociology and I reemmber my teachers leading discussions about stuff like sex education and religion and government, but again those were lessons in critical thinking and not lessons on the issues themselves. I'm not sure people can make that differentiation nowadays or eve want to.

BKB

[BaseballCoach (Rev A)]

I agree that the kids need to make their own decisions and they need to know all the options in order to do that. But, it is too easy for a 4th grade teacher painting a picture of Democrats supporting welfare, SSI, and other handouts to help those who can't help themselves. The flip side of that picture is the greedy capitalist Republicans who would allow people to starve in the streets. This is being portrayed in our public schools.

[Buckrub]

The textbooks today are.............well, very, very different than the ones I used.......