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Buckrub
01-13-2014, 08:40 PM
Yeah, I know already. I know which of you hate this guy, and these ideas. I get it. But I just dearly love to read folks who can succinctly write what I believe, when I can't do it very well. I know you don't believe it, but I do NOT agree with this guy all the time. But I do agree with the people here that he is quoting. These are pretty good comments that coincide with my ideas of why I dislike Liberalism so much.

_____

They said it (Part I)

By Bradley Gitz

Those of us who write op-ed columns tend to have favorite quotations or anecdotes that reflect principles we find congenial. Among mine, in the first of two parts, are the following, some old but aging well, others of more recent vintage.

Winston Churchill’s observation that “democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried” nicely complements another quote attributed to him that “the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.” The ironic part is that Churchill also did perhaps more than any other over the past century to save democracy from totalitarian assaults upon it.

Implicit in those observations is a crucial axiom-that all government, even democratic government, is at best a necessary evil. And that the solution to the primary defect of mass democracy (mass ignorance) is to limit government to the performance of only truly vital tasks.

National Review’s Jonah Goldberg echoes the notion that even democratic government must be constrained in various ways with a recent essay on the pleasures of cigars, wherein he notes that “I am a conservative in large part because I believe that politics should intrude on life as little as possible. Conservatives surely believe that there are times when the government should meddle in the daily affairs of the people but they normally reserve those times for large questions of right and wrong, good and evil.” On the other hand, “So much of liberalism is about unleashing the Joy Police on us, politicizing our prosaic wants and desires because some expert somewhere thinks he or she knows better how to live your life than you do. The result is to scrub the Hobbit warrens of our daily lives of the simple pleasures and to make many of those simple pleasures ‘political’ even when properly speaking they are not.” Thomas Sowell added further insight to the dynamic of contemporary liberalism in a recent column in which he claims that the agenda of the left largely consists of “promoting envy and a sense of grievance, while making loud demands for ‘rights’ to what other people have produced.” Sowell notes that “This agenda has seldom lifted the poor out of poverty. But it has lifted the left to positions of power and self-aggrandizement, while they promote policies with socially counterproductive results.”

Thus is identified the ultimate source of leftist success-every disaster inflicted can be used to demand still more of the same (as will likely soon be demonstrated when Hillary Clinton and other liberals propose a single-payer healthcare system as a means of cleaning up the mess caused by Obamacare).

Consistent with Sowell’s observations, Margaret Thatcher famously devastated the underlying logic of the left when she said that “the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.” This is because government is necessary to provide a secure and orderly foundation for the creation of wealth but does not itself create any, thus any socialist scheme must invariably take money from those who are productive and give it to those who aren’t, which only works for so long. And as Herbert Stein memorably put it, “if something cannot go on forever, it will stop.” On the misguided effort to use government to “create” jobs and wealth by shifting money from the (efficient) private sector to the (inefficient) public, we also have the wonderful anecdote attributed to Milton Friedman.

As retold in a Wall Street Journalpiece by Stephen Moore, “Milton recalled traveling to an Asian country in the 1960s and visiting a worksite where a new canal was being built. He was shocked to see that, instead of modern tractors and earth movers, the workers had shovels. He asked why there were so few machines. The government bureaucrat explained: ‘You don’t understand. This is a jobs program.’ To which Milton replied: ‘Oh, I thought you were trying to build a canal. If it’s jobs you want, then you should give these workers spoons, not shovels.’”

As the antidote suggests, government “make work” jobs and related concepts like minimum-wage increases and the indefinite extension of unemployment benefits (all justified on the grounds that they increase the buying power of beneficiaries and thereby stimulate the economy) ultimately make no sense because nothing of value is actually being added and the money to pay for those things has to come from somewhere, in most cases more productive endeavors. In the end, there is no way of getting around the dismal fact that a society’s standard of living can only be improved by increased productivity.

Finally, an amusing story that involves former U.S. Sen. Phil Gramm of Texas. Appearing on a television news program with a woman from the education establishment, Gramm claimed that “My educational policies are based on the fact that I care more about my children than you do.” When the woman from the education blob said “No, you don’t,” Gramm responded “OK, what are their names?”

It’s hard to find a more succinct rebuke of “it takes a village” and the broader collectivist mindset than that. -

BarryBobPosthole
01-13-2014, 09:06 PM
Why don't you just call me out by name if you really want to discuss this? I made it only to the second paragraph, because this writer is guilty, more guilty in fact, of the gross ignorance of the populace he espouses. He proves that in these two paragraphs.

"Winston Churchill’s observation that “democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried” nicely complements another quote attributed to him that “the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.” The ironic part is that Churchill also did perhaps more than any other over the past century to save democracy from totalitarian assaults upon it.

Implicit in those observations is a crucial axiom-that all government, even democratic government, is at best a necessary evil. And that the solution to the primary defect of mass democracy (mass ignorance) is to limit government to the performance of only truly vital tasks."

First off, it is not implicit in those two quotes by Church that government is a necessary evil, nor that he believed the primary defect in democracy is the ignorance of the masses. Churchill believed no such thing as he was a affirmed believer in eugenics and many of the things he did in his 50 years in government service (pretty long career for someone who supposedly thought it was a necessary evil). Churchill created the first unemployment insurance in England, passed the first minimum wage, and set up government run labor boards to help people find work. He added taxes to the rich in England so he could pay for more social programs and he said many times that his worse mistake was returning England to the gold standard which almost broke the country. that was the last and only Kenesian economic philosophy he tried.

so that's a far fetch from what appears to be the base argument this guy is about to make, all great points I'm sure, about the perils of liberalism and how the bastion of freedom was also some kind of conservative person who made great quotes about 2014.

Put something up that's worth arguing about, or maybe try something that has some sort of factual basis.

Harrrumph!

BKB

Buckrub
01-13-2014, 11:45 PM
I did.

Government is a necessary evil at best, even if you disagree.

and you aren't the only one, and it's rude to call names.

BarryBobPosthole
01-14-2014, 10:01 AM
So if you want a smaller government then stop trying to elect Republican presidents. The last three Republican presidents have grown the government WAY more than any democratic president since and that covers a span of almost thirty friggin years. Here's the FACTS if you care to look at them.
BKB

2362

Buckrub
01-14-2014, 12:03 PM
Looks to me like I need to quit electing ANY President!!!

I don't see any negative numbers here for your precious Democrats, either?????

I have said 1,000 times that Bush spent too much, had too many programs. I said it when he was in office. You didn't listen to anything anyone said about him when he was in office.

P.S.
The above article was not about Presidents. It was about Government.

BarryBobPosthole
01-14-2014, 12:12 PM
ps....tell your writer friend too that an 'antidote' is what you take for poison, and an 'anecdote' is a short story that supports a point.

and this can't possibly be about conservative leadership, because we all know based on this that its the liberals that are the problem right? Or could it possibly be that we need to seek a new solution to all this other than blaming political ideologies for the problem. Like maybe electing leaders with just a bit more integrity than what we have in the past regardless their ideology. What a novel approach!



BKB

Buckrub
01-14-2014, 12:18 PM
Let me know ASAP the first time you see one on the ballot.

BUT, if he isn't for smaller government, he ain't spit either.

BarryBobPosthole
01-14-2014, 01:41 PM
Well, this might surprise you but one I think deserves a good hard look is Jeb Bush. He is probably a 'liberal' in your eyes, but I see him more as a moderate and I think that's what the country needs. He has some good ideas on health care, as in HAVE A FUCKING PLAN BEFORE YOU THROW OUT OBAMACARE, and he definitely has the right ideas on immigration. and just because he's a Bush doesn't mean he's like his idiot brother.

Check him out. Or don't, I don't care. But you asked, and there's one who I think is legit.

BKB

BarryBobPosthole
01-14-2014, 02:56 PM
Here's two more that I think base their actions on what's right vs what ideology they may have personally.

BKB

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2014/01/elizabeth-warrens-new-bill-could-save-taxpayers-billions

BarryBobPosthole
01-14-2014, 05:04 PM
And just one more quote by Winston Churchill. when asked why he wouldn't cut funding for the arts in favor of additional war funding, he replied "then what are we fighting for?"

Man, he was almost a Tea Partier.

BKB

LJ3
01-14-2014, 05:26 PM
Settle down posthole! :party

I agree a Republican closer to the center is the only decent choice for us as things stand now. Doesn't mean spit if you take Penguins economic theories to heart, which I do. In which case I just need more bullets.

Buckrub
01-14-2014, 05:35 PM
OK OK OK, so what if Winston was the wrong guy for this guy to quote? Geez.

If Winston didn't say those things, he should have. The QUOTES were what I liked, not who said them. What diff does it make if Joe the Plumber said 'em?

I WANT GOVERNMENT OFF OF OUR BACKS. I want the arrogant Elitists to stop telling me how great they are at spending my money. I want my money to stop being spent. I care about a few other things too, social things, but I'll settle for government to go the flip AWAY!!!

I don't care who said what. I care about getting these jerkheads out of my back pocket and out of my head and heart and soul. I want us all to EACH be responsible for our own actions. It doesn't take a Village to do anything other than designate an Idiot!!!

Penguin
01-14-2014, 05:37 PM
Hahaha, bucky and barry at it again. :)

I'd have a lot more respect for all of these guys who advocate that we go full Klingon if they also believed in ~really~ making everyone earn their way. No head starts, no inherited wealth, no special treatment of any kind. If you really want to throw Darwin a bone and get rid of all of these "undesirables" then how about doing it from top to bottom instead of trying to justify what we have now: dead weight on both ends of the spectrum.

Hey, if they're so superior it shouldn't be a problem. Right?

Will

Chicken Dinner
01-14-2014, 05:45 PM
Most of these Tea Baggers would call Ronald Reagan a RINO if he came along today. Talk about FUBAR...

Buckrub
01-14-2014, 05:50 PM
I doubt that. He's the Champion. Just like Clinton and Obama are to the Left.

I blame FDR and LBJ more than other President. But again, it is only Congress that can appropriate funds (even for wars that no one likes after the fact).

Our whole system is totally broke. Totally. Nothing I know of works like it should.

airbud7
01-14-2014, 05:55 PM
2365

Buckrub
01-14-2014, 05:58 PM
As I say, and am laughed at for being a poor mouthed pessimist, we are headed towards The Big Split.

When? Dunno. Bloodless I hope. But inevitable. You guys need to listen to what is being spoken throughout the South a bit more. Things are way more radical than most of 'us' realize.

LJ3
01-14-2014, 06:00 PM
Jes you keep pickin your cotton, we'll keep tellin ya'll how to live.

Chicken Dinner
01-14-2014, 06:02 PM
This next election could be truly ugly. It's a long way off, but the Dems seem hellbent on nominating Hilary and I'm just wondering how the Republicans will manage to screw it up.

Buckrub
01-14-2014, 06:02 PM
I'm sure these are not facts, and just made up. But...............

Uncle Sam—AKA the federal government—went on a New Year’s Eve binge, adding a net of $125,202,709,546.99 to its total debt in just the one day of Dec. 31, 2013, according to the U.S. Treasury.

That equals approximately $1,088.60 for each of the 115,013,000 households the Census Bureau currently estimates there are in the United States.

Overall, in the first quarter of fiscal 2014, which ended on Dec. 31, the total debt of the federal government jumped $613,787,258,252.83

That equals $5,336 for each household in the country.

At the close of business on Dec. 30, 2013, the total debt of the federal government was 17,226,768,075,403.16. By the close of business on the next day—New Year’s Eve—the debt had risen to 17,351,970,784,950.15—a one-day jump of $125,202,709,546.99.

At the close of business on Sept. 30, 2013—the last day of fiscal 2013—the federal debt had been $16,738,183,526,697.32. By the close of business on Dec. 31, 2013—the last day of the first quarter of fiscal 2014—the federal debt had climbed to $17,351,970,784,950.15.

That represented an increase of $613,787,258,252.83 during the quarter--or $5,336 for each of these 115,013,000 households in the country.

In the five-month period from May 17 and October 16, 2013, the Treasury reported that the portion of the federal debt subject to a legal limit set by Congress closed every business day at $16,699,396,000,000, or approximately $25 million below the then-legal limit of $16,699,421,095,673.60.

During this period, Treasury Secretary Jacob Lew informed Congress that the Treasury was using “extraordinary measures” to prevent the debt from exceeding the statutory limit.

On October 16, Congress enacted legislation that suspended the debt limit through Feb. 7.

Buckrub
01-14-2014, 06:03 PM
The next President, and the next Congress, will double these numbers quickly.

Penguin
01-14-2014, 06:07 PM
This next election could be truly ugly. It's a long way off, but the Dems seem hellbent on nominating Hilary and I'm just wondering how the Republicans will manage to screw it up.

Maybe they can dig up another privileged parasite like Romney who goes around talking about all of those 'takers'? :)

That ought to do it.

I'm shaking my head sadly but smiling at the same time Hank. Charlie Brown and the football.

Will

Buckrub
01-14-2014, 06:08 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHA

I betcha they DO run a zero like Romney. Or McCain (Who the Maricopa County Republicans censored for being a Democrat!!! :))

Whoever wins, will double the debt really fast.

Chicken Dinner
01-14-2014, 06:11 PM
Or, worse. They'll do a replay if our last election for governor in Virginia and nominate some reactionary crackpot and everyone in the middle will either stay home or vote for a third party candidate.

Penguin
01-14-2014, 06:26 PM
Well it isn't like it is a big surprise if it does play out that way. I've said "Geez these are the two worst I have ever seen!" so many times in a row (and meant every word) that I almost expect it.

Kind of makes sense in a perverse way. There really isn't much they disagree about on economic issues. So social issues have doubled down in intensity. So you end up with elections that don't really mean anything in economic terms but are twice as contentious and nasty... and as Bill notes, divisive.

Ah well, maybe a handful more of them and I'll be ready to move back to WV and start on my retirement lean-to. :)

Will

Buckrub
01-14-2014, 06:30 PM
I still think the purpose of any POTUS is A) Comic Relief and B) something to gig Posty on.

BarryBobPosthole
01-14-2014, 09:17 PM
Bucky, I'm not letting you off the hook on this one because you're just almost there. All I want you to do is admit just one damned time that the deficit and debt situation in our country isn't the result of a bunch of liberals screwing it all up. Its BOTH parties and that's the dad gummed problem, which I've tried to get through your thick friggin noggin time and time again. So we have to stop this liberal-conservative stance on every damned issue. Its stupid. To fix any of these problems we've got to quit electing people who stand in front of progress because ideologically it doesn't suit them. Or they might not be considered 'conservative enough' if they vote for it. Neither side will admit failure.The voters have to some day admit that both sides failed and start electing people that will fix problems. If you EVER find a presidential candidate, or dog catcher candidate for that matter, who fits all of YOUR nooks and crannies I will eat my hat.

BKB

Captain
01-14-2014, 10:13 PM
I would never admit such a thing! But of course Bucky is more Liberal than me... :D

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

BarryBobPosthole
01-14-2014, 10:18 PM
^^^shit disturber^^^^

Captain
01-14-2014, 10:26 PM
^^^shit disturber^^^^

Who? ME??????? :D

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

LJ3
01-14-2014, 10:37 PM
I will admit it on their behalf :) BUT... the numbers used to say republicans grow government are growing defense. Not huge government bureaucracy.

Captain
01-14-2014, 10:40 PM
I will admit it on their behalf :) BUT... the numbers used to say republicans grow government are growing defense. Not huge government bureaucracy.

Amen!

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Buckrub
01-14-2014, 11:22 PM
Barry, I'm gonna drive to Tulsa tomorrow and knock your ass off. Look for me. You BETTER look for me, dude.

I'm gonna hurt you.

You are NOT LISTENING TO ME YOU DUMBASS LIBERAL REDHEADED IDJIT.

i've said since 1992 that both parties are to blame for spending. I've given you example that even you should be able to understand. STILL you think I'm blaming the deficit on Liberals.

I swear. I'm gonna get a little sleep, then I'm on the road, man. It's 4 hours. You better be looking.

Man.

The deficit and debt is the result of SPENDING! The bank doesn't care who the check is made out to, it just cares what's on the "Amount" line.

Geez.

HOWEVER, on another subject OTHER than spending, I do not like the Elitist government telling me, or anyone, what the best way to spend MY money is.

Those are two subjects. I know, you are not as educated, or as cute, or as observant, or as clear minded as I am............BUT GEEZ MAN........can you please separate these two subjects. It's not ME that combines them!!

SORRY. I'm pissed at Arkansas' half of basketball against Squid Man. Seems like we could get SOME of our old swagger back. BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.