LEO Question

[Buckrub]

Yes, this varies by State. Or I guess it does. But it's a hot topic on another board, and I don't know the answer.

Guy, let's call him Joe, has written permission to be on Harold's private property. Joe puts up a game camera on a fence post. Or a tree. Whatever.

Joe shows up to hunt, and there stands a Game Warden. GW has pulled the SD card out of the guy's camera and is looking at it on his digital camera. Joe asks him what he is doing, and he says something like "Just saw this game camera and thought I'd see what was on it".

Joe has done nothing illegal, and for sure not in front of the camera. He believes the GW is violating the 4th Amendment. Others say GW's are 'special cases' and prima_facie evidence rules say they can inspect almost anything afield.

What say you?

[BarryBobPosthole]

Hey I'm a Leo. On the cusp of Virgo.

Its currently legal for a copper to go through your cell phone to see if there's anything incriminating on it. Completely without a warrant. I believe that's about to be heard by the SCROTUS. (pun intended)

Isn't this the same thing?

BKB

[Buckrub]

No it's not. Who told you that?

[Thumper]

Good question. I've always heard GW's have more authority than regular LEO's, but it sure "seems" wrong ... whether it is or not.

[Thumper]

No it's not. Who told you that?

Here's a blind link for ya' Bucky. ;)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-can-now-search-cell-phones-without-a-warrant/

Seems pretty dang similar to GW's going through game cams.

[Buckrub]

I love blind links. They can't see me readin' 'em.

That link was about a guy stopped FOR CAUSE and THEN his cell phone was searched. Not same thing, not even close. IMHO.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Well, you've heard from a Leo and a Capricorn and neither of us know. We're agnostic on that issue. Maybe find a Libra. They're judgy.

BKB

[Buckrub]

Horoscopes

Capricorn
12/22-1/19

You feel incredible -- which could be good or bad. If you're in the dumps, take heart in the knowledge that the feeling can't last long. If you're up, make the most of it while you can!

Dunno Thump's b/d, but the above sure seems to fit him................:wink

[Thumper]

Horoscopes

Capricorn
12/22-1/19

You feel incredible -- which could be good or bad. If you're in the dumps, take heart in the knowledge that the feeling can't last long. If you're up, make the most of it while you can!

Dunno Thump's b/d, but the above sure seems to fit him................:wink

Didn't you comment on the "Billie" goat post? ;)

[Buckrub]

Oh.

Yeah. Well, I wuz caught up more in the Billie than I wuz the Birthday.

happy birthday, buttwipe. Hope you can last one time!!!!

[BarryBobPosthole]

He ain't much of a noticer, Thumper.

BKB

[Buckrub]

Hard to see for all this sand.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Sand in your vagina? AGAIN?

BKB

[Buckrub]

Eyes.

Head in sand.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Like the famous Milamo bird.
BKB

[Captain]

Good question. I've always heard GW's have more authority than regular LEO's, but it sure "seems" wrong ... whether it is or not.

That is not true. They have no more authority than any other LEO. What they DO have is statewide jurisdiction for any criminal act, from littering to drugs to traffic to game laws. Basically anything. That said they still have to play by the 4th and 5th amendments.
No LEO can just walk up to anyone and search their phone unless they have reasonable suspicion or probably cause of criminal activity, or as a search incident to an arrest. I cannot imagine how he would have either with a trail camera.

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[quercus alba]

In Arkansas they use game wardens at roadblocks because they don't need a warrant to search a vehicle

[Captain]

They need the SAME probable cause that any officer needs to search. Period.

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[Gunther]

Well, there are some places in western SD where it might happen. Once. For the most part I hate wardens. I have met one good one but for the most part they're a buncha dipshits that think they are special.

[Arty]

Well, there are some places in western SD where it might happen. Once. For the most part I hate wardens. I have met one good one but for the most part they're a buncha dipshits that think they are special.

Isn't it terrible that the overwhelming majority of people (that I know or know of, at least) have the same opinion as this about GW's? Only thing I can figure is that "How to be an Asshole 101" must be a required course for them.

[Thumper]

Cappy ... serious question. How vague is the "probable cause" issue? Example, Fish Cops can board your boat and check all paperwork, safety equipment, fishing tackle, bait, licenses AND go through coolers, etc. AND check to see if you've been drinking. If you aren't breaking any laws and simply "minding your own business" ... where is the "probable cause". Is it simply the fact you're on the water?

Coming back from Canada, I think it was TW, Johnboy, P-hole, Bucky and myself (I think it was that trip), were pulled over by fish cops. They checked our licenses, then went through the coolers in the vehicles and boat "to see if we were over limit" on fish. Where's the probable cause? The fact we were pulling boats? Couldn't they also simply walk into my house and check my freezer simply because I possess a fishing or hunting license .. or own a fishing pole/gun? What's the difference? If the coolers had been full of Cocaine, would we get off on a "technicality"? It's like a "license check" roadblock. I was busted in one as a kid. I was obeying the law (well, sort of) but they stopped EVERYONE to check for driver's licenses and insurance info. (I was driving on a "learner's permit" and received a ticket) ;) Is "probable cause" the simple fact people were DRIVING?

DUI check-points on New Year's Eve ... is "probable cause" simply the fact a lot of people drink on that evening? Or does the "probable cause" only kick in if they "think" you've been drinking after observing you at the stop? Is it they don't need probable cause to stop you ... only to arrest you?

The "probable cause" thing just seems mighty "grey" to me. What are the boundaries?

[Captain]

The probable cause is the fishing rods, license, coolers, and everything else that it takes to catch fish. If you got all that stuff it is probable that you are taking fish and they are regulated by size, amount etc....
A vehicle on a public highway is ALWAYS subject to search due to fact a person has to have a license/insurance to operate. The scope or amount of search depends on what is learned upon the check of license, registration, insurance etc.

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[BarryBobPosthole]

So probable cause is just a crock of shit.

BkB

[Niner]

Probably.

[Thumper]

Ummm, yeah ... that was kinda my point. "Probable Cause" my ass. ;)

[Buckrub]

Prima_facie evidence. You are fishing, thus you might be guilty. It's what everyone has against Fish Cops. They make you prove your innocence.

Truth is, I don't know of any other way to do it.

I've had TWO run ins with Fish Cops that were bad. The rest are pleasant and professional. In the first instance, the GW got arrested 3 months later for pushing drugs.

Thanks Cappy. That was what I was looking for.

[Captain]

Probable cause is a good thing. It keeps you from being searched for no reason.
When fishing in public waters you are partaking in a activity that is regulated. ie: license requirements, limits, type of game fish, size restriction etc... So by your very activity OF fishing you give GW's probably cause to check to see if you are abiding by all laws because the activity itself is regulated.
Not so (in NC) in a private farm pond. No regulation, license etc required. So they do not check you there.
Think of it this way. If you were dressed in your bestious Sunday go to meeting clothes and walking down the sidewalk with no fishing rod in hand and no indication that you have been fishing It WOULD be illegal for a GW to walk up to you and want to check your fishing license. That's the reason you don't get checked at the mall while shopping for your wife a pair of thigh-highs...

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[Captain]

Prima_facie evidence. You are fishing, thus you might be guilty. It's what everyone has against Fish Cops. They make you prove your innocence.

Not really Bucky,they are not making you prove you are innocent, you are taking part in a regulated activity and they are checking to see if you are within regulations. It's not you are fishing so you might be guilty, it's you are fishing and the law says there are certain things you have to do in order to fish. So by the act of fishing you are giving probable cause to see if you are within the regulations. If folks don't like being checked they should not do regulated things, driving, hunting, fishing etc.

Like I said earlier no one has ever had their fishing and hunting license checked while shopping for groceries.

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[BarryBobPosthole]

Name an activity that ain't regulated these days.

BKB

[Captain]

Shopping, going out to eat, going to church.... How many you want?

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[Buckrub]

One time a GW stopped a man and a woman in a boat. The man was fishing, the woman was reading a book.

He found more than double the legal limit of fish, and began to write both of them a ticket. The lady said "You cannot write me a ticket. I was not fishing".

The GW said "Ma'am, you are in the area, you have motive, you have all the right equipment, and I believe you were fishing". She said "If you write me a ticket, I will scream ATTEMPTED RAPE and press charges against you for the same".

The GW said "MA'AM!! I haven't touched you! What are you talking about?"

The lady said "Sir, you are in the area, you have motive, you have all the right equipment, and I believe you were attempting it".

The GW closed his ticket book and left.....................

[Buckrub]

Oh, and Cappy, I get what you are saying. But in my humble opinion "Checking to see if you are within regulations" when they have no reason to suspect I am not, is the same thing as "making me prove innocence", just different phrasing. Means the same thing, at least to me. Just two ways of saying the same thing. They should believe I AM within regulations unless there is a reason to suspect otherwise. I don't read anything in the 4th Amendment that says "unless it's a regulated activity".............

I offer an analogy. If a State Cop stops you and asks, for no reason whatsoever, "May I search your vehicle?" you can say "No". But you are performing a 'regulated activity' as you call it.

Yet if a GW stops you, he searches you for game without asking.

Question 1: Both are regulated activities. Why is one legal and one not?

Question 2: If you say he CAN legally look in my livewell without probable cause, then why did you say above he can't look in my game camera? What would be the legal difference?

Thanks.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I want to be free to do all of them without being under suspicion of breaking the law. Is that too much to ask? If the law needs to bump up against me, then treat me with dignity, that's all I ask. If I'm charged with something, then fine. But until then I give respect and expect it in return. Most fish cops I've had encounters with don't operate that way. Fewer in police act out but there's a bunch. And I have a friend who's and Oklahoma Statie and I know that from what he's told me it isn't an easy task given that a large portion of the public police deal with are trash of some ilk.but that's not an excuse. My life is hard sometimes too.


BKB

[Captain]

"I offer an analogy. If a State Cop stops you and asks, for no reason whatsoever, "May I search your vehicle?" you can say "No". But you are performing a 'regulated activity' as you call it."

Because to operate a vehicle the only regulations are: you have to have a license, insurance and valid registration. If you satisfied that (and assuming there is no odor of alcohol or drugs in the car) you are welcome to say no!
In the fishing example you are TAKING (or at least hoping to take :-) ) something and the storage place for the things taken are coolers and livewells.
In the driving example as long as there are no reasonable suspicion of drugs or alcohol in the vehicle and you give proof of license, registration and insurance it's over.
Let's say he stops you for driving and ask for your license, registration and proof of insurance and you tell him they hidden in this car. Then he can search the vehicle for them. Even if you don't want him too. Cause he is gonna arrest you and the make a search incident to an arrest.
In the fishing example you are saying I've been fishing and I've got my license and coolers and livewells where the fish are stored. It is his job to inspect the containers to see if you complied with regulations. That is not a search....

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[Gunther]

But,,,,,,game wardens can search your car at a stop with no cause at all. I have been searched when I wasn't hunting at all. And I had more than one state if I was out shooting rocks and paper I had to have a hunting license to legally shoot and I even had one threaten to take my rifle. I told him that would be a damn poor idea.

There's a lot of assholes in the world but it might be a requirement to be a total dipshit to be a warden.

[Captain]

I want to be free to do all of them without being under suspicion of breaking the law. Is that too much to ask? If the law needs to bump up against me, then treat me with dignity, that's all I ask. BKB

Just as you "lump" all GW's into one lot as being assholes THEY have every right to "Lump" all fisherman in a lot of those that take more than the limit.

There are those game wardens that are assholes and there are fishermen that DO take more than their limit and hide them.
So if it's fair for a couple of GW's to color your opinion of the whole lot why is it UNFAIR for a few fisherman that break the law not to likewise color their opinion of all fisherman?
I'll make you a deal, I promise to make all game wardens nice and polite guys when you make all fisherman obey every law and not sneak and hide shit.... Deal?
Why you want to put all the fault on the GW's and not assign any to those that break the law is like the parents of the kid that gets in trouble and all they can say is "it's the group he's running with"

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[Captain]

But,,,,,,game wardens can search your car at a stop with no cause at all. I have been searched when I wasn't hunting at all. And I had more than one state if I was out shooting rocks and paper I had to have a hunting license to legally shoot and I even had one threaten to take my rifle. I told him that would be a damn poor idea. There's a lot of assholes in the world but it might be a requirement to be a total dipshit to be a warden.

Gunther that is pure bullshit. I have no doubt that IF they searched your car it's because you told them they could. They have the same limitations of the 4th as every other LEO.
You cannot tell me they pulled you over and searched your car for no reason and without asking you if they could.
Go blow that smoke up someone else ass...

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[Gunther]

Cappy, just lost a lot of respect for ya.

Guess we're done here.

[Buckrub]

Didn't mean to cause problems. My questions were honest and legitimate questions.

[Captain]

Cappy, just lost a lot of respect for ya. Guess we're done here.

No problem Gunther I got enough respect for myself for the both of us.
What I'm saying to everyone here is the 4th amendment applies to all LEO across the board. No one group, GW's, state or local police, Sheriffs, FBI are exempt from it.
These tales of "they searched me for no reason" is usually the person searched editing the facts to make a point. There was SOME reason. I'm not saying LEO's ALWAYS do things right or there reasoning is always correct. But what I am saying is they just ain't riding around and saying I'm gonna stop the next green vehicle I see and search them for shit and giggles.
Check points are a semi-exception to the search laws. But they are not without guidelines and cause, DUI checkpoints, drug checkpoints, checkpoints for illegally killed game etc.
First a written plan for the check point has to be filed with cause.
ie: local bar closed at 2:00 AM and there have been an increase of drunk driver related crashes in this area..
Or
A high level if Game Poachers have been using this route to slip illegally taken game.
AND
They have to list a search pattern.
ie: we will search every 3rd vehicle or we will search every vehicle.... And must stay within the written plan.
And the checkpoint has to have a beginning and ending time and it has the be strictly observed.
Sorry a lot of y'all are dealing with such shit for LEO's

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[Buckrub]

I haven't been. I read a question on another site, and did not know the answer. I still ain't sure!! :)

But I enjoy the conversation. I know what I THINK.........but I ain't always right. However, I don't always see that right off, either!! I have to cogitate on stuff a while.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Your game wardens might be different than ours. I doubtit t maybe thats the difference. I don't have any issues with the law. Game wardens yes. Most cops, no. And I'm not disrespecting you, I'm just hard headed. Like you!

BKB

[Captain]

Your game wardens might be different than ours. I doubtit t maybe thats the difference. I don't have any issues with the law. Game wardens yes. Most cops, no. And I'm not disrespecting you, I'm just hard headed. Like you! BKB

You still ain't told me why all GW's are dick cause a few are and why all fisherman are not dicks cause a few are?
You avoiding me?

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[Captain]

Originally posted by Gunther
"Well Cappy that is not bullshit. In fact I never seen you there when it happened.
If you think I'm lying, well, fuck off."

Not lying Gunther. Just misremembering stuff or not telling the whole story one or the other.

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[Gunther]

I had edited that. Because I thought I was being too harsh. Figured I'd not get too mad about it since you were obviously hot.

But now, well there ya go. Game checks don't have to follow any rules it seems. But of course you know everything there is to know about it. No matter where and no matter when. Sounds like LMS to me.

Glad you got a double dose of self respect, that's another sign of LMS though also.

[airbud7]

All people have more rights on a boat...>Than a car.....ie; Cooler full of beer...(keep your empties)....

Theres more fun on the lake with a designated driver...everything is legal....
Get in a Car with a beer!!!... (Cooler full of beer lol)....designated driver. don't count....Jail....

I love Boats/Laws..........

Keyword: Designated driver....

[Captain]

I have not been "hot" during this thread. Felt Kinda like Billy Bob, "like arguing with my sisters kids or something." :D

And I don't know what LMS stand for.
So see I don't know everything, but I do know that the 4th amendment applies to all LEO's in this US of A

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[Thumper]

Well that sure went to hell in a handbasket! :swordfight

[BarryBobPosthole]

Captain, in my experience with game wardens its not just a few that are pricks. Its 90% of them.

BKB

[Thumper]

You know, we've had similar discussions before and the results are always the same. It's really an interesting observation because in past years, I always thought it was "just me". Personally, probably 95% of the cops I've dealt with over the years were pretty much fair and courteous ... BUT ... 95% of the FISH COPS I've had contact with were a-hole pricks.

The threads here (past and present) have been real eye-openers. Maybe "Fish & Game" needs to remodel their house a bit.

[Captain]

There you go Posthole, thanks for the reply. Let's just agree that we are both hardheaded and see things differently.

Kribbs I remember me, you and Gator sitting in a boat at 4 in the morning and two GW's came up in a boat pulled up beside our boat and we sat there for an hour talking trash and telling stories with those guys. Don't remember a cross word or negative comment on either side. In fact they laughed along at gators stories and told a few of their own. They did their job and checked us and were very pleasant and friendly doing it Are they part of the 95% assholes you are talking about?

And Gunther you wrote
"Game checks don't have to follow any rules it seems. But of course you know everything there is to know about it."

That's just the opposite of what this WHOLE thread is about! Y'ALL have been saying they don't have to follow any rules of search and seizure and I've been saying they do...... And they DO. They have to stay within the 4th amendment.

And Bucky there is no reasonable expectation of privacy for a game camera left tied to a tree in the woods. If it were inside your home it would be different they would need a search warrant to recover the SD card and images.

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[HideHunter]

lol.. cool.. :D love it when "discussions" happen on this site that are actually outdoor related. You know I have at every opportunity avoided having conversations with COs or cops of any kind for that matter. I've probably only had a half-dozen interactions with Wardens. The one thing I'll say is every one of them, to a man, seemed genuinely disappointed that they couldn't find reason to write me a ticket. I will say only one of them acted like a dick. They others were business-like to a flaw.

[Thumper]

There you go Posthole, thanks for the reply. Let's just agree that we are both hardheaded and see things differently.

Kribbs I remember me, you and Gator sitting in a boat at 4 in the morning and two GW's came up in a boat pulled up beside our boat and we sat there for an hour talking trash and telling stories with those guys. Don't remember a cross word or negative comment on either side. In fact they laughed along at gators stories and told a few of their own. They did their job and checked us and were very pleasant and friendly doing it Are they part of the 95% assholes you are talking about?

Cappy, I remember it well. But, you have to remember, we were with Tony and he was actually WORKING for Fish & Game ... so we were essentially "one of them" through association. The way the process worked, a nuisance gator report would be filed with Fish & Game. They would in turn contact Tony who was the State licensed gator trapper for the area. Fish & Game would receive a complaint, they contact Tony, send him the tag and Tony would handle the "problem" for them. Sure, they seemed like great guys but there was a working, as well as professional relationship there. You know how that "professional courtesy" thing works ... that's why you always had your badge laying on your dash when you traveled ... ummm, USUALLY a "bit" over the posted speed limit! :D

BUT ... I didn't say 100% are pricks ... those guys may have fallen into the leftover 5%. ;)

[Captain]

Well, you've heard from a Leo and a Capricorn and neither of us know. We're agnostic on that issue. Maybe find a Libra. They're judgy. BKB

Oh and Posthole I'm a Libra.....


Kribbs I KNEW there had to be a reason they were nice, cause normally they are dicks right! ;)

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[Thumper]

Read my last sentence you LEO prick! :poke


BUT ... I didn't say 100% are pricks ... those guys may have fallen into the leftover 5%. :biggrin

[Captain]

Read my last sentence you LEO prick! :poke

BUT ... I didn't say 100% are pricks ... those guys may have fallen into the leftover 5%. :biggrin
:D

LMS:
Last man standing?
Like my status?
Loud Mouth Shit?

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[Buckrub]

Cappy, I'm learning. That's why I asked this from a LEO. Thanks for the replies. I don't agree 100% but I do see what you are saying.

I have LDS, so I get belligerent when I shouldn't sometimes. I need to work on that.

And I can NOT say that I agree with Posthole. It sure as heck is NOT 90% in my history. Most are really good. But I've had some idiots. One guy stopped me and my fishing buddy when our three kids were in the boat, as we were launching to come home, for 'shocking fish'. I said "Man, we ain't got no fish! Go check." He checked everywhere, including INSIDE the gas tank. Meanwhile we sat and watched the boat that was doing the shocking run off, and we told him. He said that wasn't it. 1 year later he was arrested for pushing drugs.

Forward 30 years, me and the same guy are in almost the same spot, and Frick and Frack came up to our boat and gave us the 3rd degree, for no reason. We had ONE fish. They checked my boat registration (the actual papers, the numbers on the side didn't mean anything to him), counted life jackets, checked my insurance, and kept asking us where we worked, over and over. I shoulda said "BUZZ OFF BUTTWIPE" on that question, but I didn't. They were pricks.

I was in a deer stand with a broken foot one time, a cast on it and a size 14 tennis shoe over it. Big ditch between me and road. "City" GW stopped and wanted me to come down and show him my license. 9:00 in the morning on 3rd day of deer season. I said no. I said 'come up and I will show you, or come over that ditch and I'll drop it, or wait and when I come down I'll show you". He said I HAD to. I said I couldn't. Stuck my cast out. He didn't care. I never did come down. He finally drove off (he was in a CAR, believe it or not, with 3 other uniformed clerks, or whatever they really were).

Every other time has been fine. No problems, no issues, all was cool.

I don't know what percent that is. Thinking back, I bet I haven't been stopped much. Heck, I might be 50/50 now that I think on it!!! :) But I've had silly run ins with dumbass cops too. Stupid permeates every profession to some degree. I had a run in with a Paramedic when they were here for my mother in law.......now HE was a true dumbass. But I'm glad we have them all.

[Captain]

Did you see where I said there would be no reasonable expectation of privacy for a game camera you leave on the side of a tree in the woods? So no search would be created by looking at the images.
Now if he took the camera that would be different. Larceny in fact.

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[Buckrub]

I saw where you said it. I am sure you are right, but sure seems wrong to me.............. seems like it's twisting words to make it sound ok for game stuff....but that's just me.

[HideHunter]

:D

LMS:
Last man standing?
Like my status?
Loud Mouth Shit?

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lol.. I know.. Never much believed in it.. but I know. :D