You can call me anything you want.................

[Buckrub]

But boys and girls........when a duly constituted court in the United States of America decides that it's ok to wear a Mexican Flag but NOT an American Flag........on ANY day......on your clothes..........then I'm going to ram that tin foil hat down hard on my head.

and saying "Oh, it's the 9th Circuit, they're nuts" is not good enough. They're Americans.

This is sick, sad, and makes me cry.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/appeals-court-says-school-had-right-to-ban-us-flag-t-shirts/

[LJ3]

That's seriously messed up. You got one thing wrong, though. The 9th circuit are not Americans that I can tell. If safety was the schools concern, shutting the school down and sending kids home could have worked as well. OR they could not allow celebrations that could be the catalyst for violence. Penalizing kids showing national pride is just stupid.

[airbud7]

The 9th Circuit upheld the rights of Mexican students celebrating a holiday of another country over U.S. student proudly supporting this country...we are going downhill fast folks.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Amazing how times have changed. I got in trouble at school for sewing an American flag patch on a Levi jacket with some other patches on it because it was supposedly disrespectful of the flag. They would have had a cow if I'd have worn an American flag tee shirt to school. Hell they'd have had a cow if I wore ANY tee shirt to school. They all had to have collars. Now we get upset if they CAN'T wear an American flag tee shirt. The world is moving on.

BKB

[Buckrub]

Moving on to where, Barry?

[BarryBobPosthole]

Well, for one thing we didn't have the American Freedom Law Center or any ofthe other ambulance chaser style law offices willing to represent little ol me and go sure the school. In fact its laughable. We had a very similar story crop up in Oklahoma recently. An Oklahoma legislator sponsored a bill to makeit legal for schoolchildren to be able to chew their poptarts into the shape of guns without being in fear of getting suspended because it Happened by god. Where?, nobody asked. In Maryland. Yep and come to find out when the facts were known the kid got suspended for being disruptive and it had nothing to do with poptarts or pistols.

That's what I'm talking about. I can't disagree with your sentiment, in fact I agree. Whether this school actually made at decision in that way is dubious.

BKB

[Buckrub]

I didn't comment on what the school did.........

[BarryBobPosthole]

I know. You commented on what the courts did. I don't want to get into a big argument over it, but what the court actually ruled is that schools have the right to make their schools secure from disruption and that security trumps first amendment rights in a school. We've had this discussion before and we disagreed then. when you and I were students we had no first amendment rights either. You open your mouth you get your ass beat or sent home if its considered disrespectful. That's all that's being affirmed here. the court didn't say a kid couldn't wear a US flag tee shirt but a Mexican kid could wear a Mexican flag. That wasn't said anywhere in their decision, nor was it even the intent although that sham law firm wanted everyone to believe that. The school observed a Mexican holiday, Cinqo de Mayo which is a lot like St Patrick's Day only its their independence day too. Some kids were agitating by chanting and wearing these tee shirts. Kind of like gang behavior. It got the intended reaction from the other kids and the school simply decided the agitators needed to either calm themselves down and turn their tee shirts inside out or be suspended. They left and their parents decided to pursue the lawsuit. If you would rather the court rule that the school has no right to make any judgements as to the security of their students then I would have to say I disagree with you.

These stories get spun and spun and spun and this story isn't about any school valuing Mexican heritage over American heritage at all. Period. ZERO. Its about removing sources of disruption at their discretion. No First amendment violation, no heresy no nothing. Simply that. The dress code in my high school had a catch all about 'no distracting clothing'. Exact words. that meant if a teacher didn't like paisley on your pants, it was declared distracting and you were sent home. That actually happened by the way. Nobody got sued either. the Mom charged down to the school and the principal sent her packing. Same deal here.

Calm the F down.

BKB

[Thumper]

Heck, MOST of what kids wear to school these days could be considered "distracting" I suppose. You know, until I read through this, I'd pretty much forgotten about our school dress code. We couldn't wear "long" hair. (I really don't remember what was considered "long" actually) No jeans (Dungarees). My memory is vague here ... maybe we could but they had to be NOT faded, no holes/rips/tears ... I really don't remember. We had to wear belts. "Sneakers" were only worn in the gym ... otherwise it was "street shoes". Collared shirts with buttons ... no t-shirts. The girls were required to wear dresses and could only wear slacks if the temp dropped below 35 degrees (don't remember the exact temp, but it rarely got that cold here).

All the major controversies started as styles began to change. Once the Beetles were a hit ... guys were constantly pushing the limits for hair length and when the mini-skirt was a hit ... the girls were constantly pushing the limits for skirt length (or lack of, whatever). Note: I had zero, zilch, nada ... NO complaints about the girls pushing the limits for SHORT skirts! :D

But, maybe if the dress codes were tightened for school kids, none of this controversy would be necessary in the first place. When I see the kids going to school these days, I have to wonder if half of them are attending Barnum & Bailey's Clown School. Isn't the purpose of school to give students the tools they'll need to enter the job market and become a functioning part of the adult world? Most every place I've worked in my lifetime, ESPECIALLY the military, had dress codes and limits regarding personal appearance. I was required to wear the "uniform of the day" as well as short hair in the military ... then for the next 20 years, as a civilian, I was required to wear a suit. After that I owned my own business, but I STILL had to abide by my client's dress codes when working on their property .... usually more for safety than anything else ... long pants, safety glasses, steel-toed boots, ear-plugs, hard hats, etc. What's wrong with preparing kids for the real world and teaching them THEY do NOT make all the rules?

Granted this is going a bit off on a tangent but the result would be the fact none of this b/s would even be an issue in the first place if the rules were black & white to begin with.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Amen to that. After putting up with that angst with four kids I am a borderline believer in school uniforms.

If the court ever rules that a student's first amendment rights trump a school's responsibility to manage their students then you'll start seeing swastikas and all sorts of crazy shit in schools. That's all I'm sayin'. This is just one of those trumped up stories to convince people that America is on the road to hell. Just look at what happened!

BKB

[Big Muddy]

Good post, Thump....I, too, wore the "uniform of the day", and later on, a business suit for a few years, right after college.

After that, and returning to the farm, I promised myself that I will NEVER wear a suit, again, except on VERY special church functions....i.e., family weddings/funerals, or as a pallbearer for a close friend....and, he better be a really day'um close friend, otherwise, I'll be toting his dead azz, wearing my Wrangler jeans and a white shirt!!! ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

I wore monkey suits to work for many years and like you, I swore off of them. I still get in one once a year or so for the same reasons you have to. It still sucks. Last year I stood out at a cemetery service in a full suit in the middle of Arkansas summer and almost melted into the ground. How do some people never sweat a drop in a suit out in the full sun in summer? I certainly wouldn't buy a car from them.

Anyway, I thought several times I could hear my uncle laughing at me for wearing a suit to a funeral in the Arkansas summer. Then I figured that coffin was way too thick for me to hear him all the way through it.


BKB

[Buckrub]

have the right to make their schools secure from disruption and that security trumps first amendment rights

You mean, like, similar to the Patriot Act?

[BarryBobPosthole]

Not at all like the Patriot Act. Your whole argument assumes that people walk around with their constitutional rights fully in effect at all times. That's simply not true. You can't yell fire in a theater for example. Yet we don't consider that a violation of our right to free speech. You can't take a gun into a liquor store, but thats not a second amendment violation. And so on. And students have certain rules they have to follow for e security of everyone.
Comparing this to the government spying on American citizens is quite a stretch if you ask me.

BKB

[Captain]

I was in a liquor store yesterday in SC with my pistol firmly in my waistband and covered by my shirt....
In SC you BETTER carry a pistol in a liquor store

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[BarryBobPosthole]

We have a very permissive open carry law here too, but its still illegal in Oklahoma to open carry in a liquor store. I've actually forgot and went into one here more than once I'm afraid with one. Nobody has said a word but I don't think they noticed either.made me feel sheepish though.

BKB

[Big Muddy]

They'd prolly just think you were an under-cover drug cop. ;)

[Bwana]

That is funny BM.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Hahahaha..that's food forthought right there.

BKB

[Buckrub]

And students have certain rules they have to follow for the security of everyone.

Yes they do. But for you to make a blanket statement like that when in this case that rule is applied to wearing a semblance of the American Flag, while wearing a semblance of a flag of a foreign country is ok, begs the question, don't you think?

To make the statements you're making, which are ok in a broad sense, sort of all right, not bad..........but then to try and say those are even a 32nd cousin to the specific application of an American Citizen being punished, school or not, for the specific "CRIME" of wearing the American Flag?????

And you don't see that as a problem with our society whatsoever? The school is dead wrong for having such a rule, and the 9th Circuit is dead wrong for saying it's ok to allow that.

For you to say otherwise........well..........gee, man. I can't get any logic out of what you're saying, not in THIS case.............

[BarryBobPosthole]

That's because you aren't thinking logically. You're thinking emotionally. Its not an issue of what flag they were wearing it was their behavior. The flag shirts showed the people involved in that behavior. A flag tee shirt doesn't make anyone who wears it immune to being an asshole. These kids were acting out, throwing a challenge and they got asked to tone it down and they didn't and here comes Dewey Cheatham and How, a law firm that specializes in frivolous lawsuits to make the news and there you go.

Here's a better coverage of the story from northern Califiornia where this stuff happened. The CBS report is disappointing in that I consider it just imflammatory bullshit.

BKB

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_25240543/american-flag-removal-order-justified-u-s-court

[Buckrub]

I apologize. I get emotional about that flag. But I think logic is on my side here, not yours.

Carry on. I'll defend your right to be ever so wrong here, forever.

(again....I don't care what happened. I care what the court ruled. I see that it doesn't bother you, and ok.......well, that's fine. You served longer than I did...which I appreciate).

[Buckrub]

OK, here's something I thought of.

Here's an analogy for you. Let's turn the tables. Let's say that you posted a link to an occurrence where a high school kid got in trouble for.........parting his normal length hair on the left. School said "that's disruptive. EVERYONE should part their hair on the right, or not at all".

Kid sues. Goes to court. Loses. Court sides with the school, reasons unknown. Goes up to Circuit Court of Appeals. Circuit Court says "Yep, schools have the right to set their own discipline standards, so we side with the school. Kid can NOT part his hair on the left".

You post that, and go beserk because, after all..........that's insane, right? I mean, what American can tell another American where to part their hair, right?

I tell you "Now, Barry.........calm down. Logic isn't on your side. You can't make that argument. You're being emotional only. Kids don't have same rights we do, and that school is in their right to tell him how to part his hair"..........

You happy with that??? You think that's ok?

This is similar in one way.........wearing an American flag in America is not dangerous, not evil, not bad, not inciting anything.......just wearing a semblance of a flag of your own country. It's like parting your hair.......you have every right to do it. No one should be able to tell you "NO STOP".........cause it's innocuous, fair, fine, nice, great, patriotic, loving, sweet, and kind.

To be against it, is to be against those traits.

So are you?

[Thumper]

Here's my take and I think you're missing the whole point of the "ban". You're talking as if American flag t-shirts are permanently banned at the school while Mexican flag t-shirts are not. That is NOT the case the way I read it. It was ONLY on Cinco de Mayo, as far as I can tell, and the school had previously "had a history of problems between white and Latino students on that day". The decision was based solely on PREVIOUS problems and the school was simply trying to "nip it in the bud" so to speak. Cinco de Mayo is an extremely important holiday for the Mexican people, let them have their holiday.

You know h/s kids as well as I do. I don't think for one minute that all of a sudden half the dang white kids in that school just randomly decided to wear American Flag shirts on that particular day and it was simply a coincidence. I have NO doubt in my mind, they got together and said, "Hey, let's fuck with these spiks tomorrow ... let's all show up with our flag shirts!"

It would be like a group of white guys going to a Martin Luther King Day celebration wearing a KKK robe and mask ... the only reason would be to stir up trouble. You can't tell me all these kids simply decided to be patriotic all of a sudden. Any other day they'd probably prefer to wear their Slipknot or Blink 182 t-shirts. I'd be willing to bet any student who just happened to show up wearing an American Flag t-shirt, on that particular day, did it for the sole purpose of making an "in your face" statement with the intent to stir up trouble.

I think you're taking the whole thing as a slam to all the patriotic/angelic little h/s boys and girls who are simply there to get an education and showing the love for their country while doing it. You're dreaming. JMHO

[Thumper]

Whoa. I thought I was here by myself but youse dufes were posting while I was huntin' and peckin'.

Bucky, you're giving these kids too much credit I think. It's blatantly obvious what the deal is ... from past experience.

Your "parting the hair" example is a bit simplistic and unrealistic. How 'bout we switch that around a bit and say some gal shows up to school with her hair parted down the middle and one side is dyed green while the other side is dyed purple and she's wearing a dead bat as a barrette? Would THAT be disruptive? It's just hair. What's the diff? Would the school be stomping on her individual rights to tell her she could not come to school looking like a frigging rainbow?

[BarryBobPosthole]

Bucky part of my problem is probably because when I was geowing up it didn't ever matter who was right and who was wrong, my parents backed the school 100% and if I got in trouble at school I got in trouble when I got home. You obviously were not raised that way. So if you think its right to do all his judgemental review every time a school makes a tough call them you'll end up with what you deserve as far as a school system goes.

BKB

[BaseballCoach (Rev A)]

Thump, having a son in high school, I think you are dead on. The kids probably went out and bought the shirts just for the occasion. Even if that is the case, an American kid in an American school on American soil should be able to wear the flag shirt any time they want. The USA is made up of immigrants who came here looking for a better life. Part of the trade-off for that better life is adopting the American ways.

[Thumper]

Oh, I've never argued that point Baseball, but I think there's a big difference between "patriots" and "instigators". I think to believe all these "white" kids all of a sudden became extremely patriotic on May 5th is a bit of a coincidence that's hard to swallow. It's pure "in your face instigation" IMHO. Pick a day ... how 'bout MARCH 5th ... how many American flag shirts do you think there will be in that school on that particular day? It's b/s to think this is anything more than intimidation.


The USA is made up of immigrants who came here looking for a better life. Part of the trade-off for that better life is adopting the American ways.

Agreed. But if you want to play that game, "WE" are immigrants here also. Did "we" adopt the "Indian ways"? How many times have you celebrated The Iroquois Midwinter Ceremony? Or the Athabascan Stickdance? Or the Navajo Mountain Chant? Or the Yaqui Easter Festival? Or the Ute Bear Dance? Or the Green Corn Ceremony? Or the Hopi Niman Katchina? Etc. Etc.

The list is endless.

Having lived in Southern California for many years I can tell you the Mexican immigrants there celebrate July 4th. And to be honest, we always looked forward to the Cinco de Mayo celebrations while there. Wouldn't it be refreshing for these h/s kids to learn about the history of the celebration and maybe enjoy participating instead of trying to stir up trouble on what is a special day for many of their classmates? Instead of making the day a positive experience, they're hell-bent on turning it into a negative experience.

[Buckrub]

Whoa. I thought I was here by myself but youse dufes were posting while I was huntin' and peckin'.

Bucky, you're giving these kids too much credit I think. It's blatantly obvious what the deal is ... from past experience.

Your "parting the hair" example is a bit simplistic and unrealistic. How 'bout we switch that around a bit and say some gal shows up to school with her hair parted down the middle and one side is dyed green while the other side is dyed purple and she's wearing a dead bat as a barrette? Would THAT be disruptive? It's just hair. What's the diff? Would the school be stomping on her individual rights to tell her she could not come to school looking like a frigging rainbow?

I still call B/S.

I have a hard time arguing with you and Posty on this, because both of you served, and served harder, longer, and better than I did. I honor that enough to feel bad about arguing patriotic stuff with you two.

But, this is b/s.

You think I'm an idiot. I'm NOT the idiot that you think I am. I taught school, you didn't. I paddled kids, you haven't. I punished kids, you haven't. I saw it first hand, you saw it only as a student. I GET IT that these guys who wore American flags were 'instigators' and not just sweet patriotic kids (only).

But guess why they did it? They did it because foreign students flaunted (INSTIGATED) a foreign flag in their face, and being teenagers, they retaliated. They didn't shoot the Mexicans. They didn't holler "Remember the Alamo" up and down the halls. They didn't gang fight. What did they do that is so "instigating"???

They wore an American flag.

And guess what? They got punished for it. And guess what else????

The Mexicans who wore the Mexican flag and flaunted Cinco de Mayo did NOT GET PUNISHED, not by the school and not by the courts.

And you think it's ok to punish instigators? No you don't. You think it's ok to punish only retaliators. Instigators are apparently just peachy fine with you, with this school, and with the Circuit Court.

And THAT is why I call b/s.

I'm right on this one, and I'm not backing down.

[Thumper]

I'm headed out the door for the day. Adios.

[BarryBobPosthole]

That's because you think that the only people who love this country are conservatives.

And now you've made up a whole story of what really happened to rationalize how you initially felt.

Go right ahead. Its a free country.

I'm out too.
BKB

[BaseballCoach (Rev A)]

Just about every day of the year is some country's 'Independence Day'. Should we ban the flag shirts every day because there might be French kid at that school and it might be French resistance day? Isn't that the very definition of a liberal? Strip away everyone's rights so we don't risk offending a single person?

[Buckrub]

b/s to that, too. That's a nice easy way to win an argument........but I didn't make anything up.....Thump did.

Me, too....outta here.

[Thumper]

Just got back home and made a long response here ... but decided it was better to delete it. We may as well be discussing who makes the best automobiles ... no minds are going to be changed.

I hope all those perfect little patriotic high school angels (who PROBABLY don't even wear their flag shirts on July 4th) wear their t-shirts on May 5th with their block-headed parents blessings. I'm sure it'll make for a better day all-around.

[Buckrub]

I always fight alone...........but whatever.

I hope those wonderful mexican students get to wear their flag shirts on July 4 and are never bothered by any authority when they instigate stuff. Naturally, nothing they can do is wrong, and we spend all our breath arguing only about American flags and kids and laws and things...........never does matter what anyone else does.

And it never matters that I care about it all, either.

I'm learning. Slowly........but I'm also seeing a lot of things going around now. I guess Sarah Palin is also an idiot, which is what she was called here, and many places.....especially when she predicted Russia would invade Ukraine.

I guess I need to squash my desire to 'win now' and just let y'all believe whatever you will.

How about that weather, man?