Putin to Obama.....

[Big Muddy]

Putin's invading Crimea, as we speak.

Obama called Putin and talked for 90 minutes, before the invasion.....Putin told Obama to go screw himself.

Obama skipped yet another Security Council meeting, yesterday.....instead, he attended a kid's film festival with a bunch of 2 year olds.

Yep, we got ourselves a real leader, don't we????

[HideHunter]

I'm kind of gullible, naive if you will.. I've never quite understood why the rest of the world hates us so. I told my wife this morning.. I'm starting to understand it. What a bunch of arrogant assholes we've become. I won't say, "Sometimes I'm not all that proud to be an American." But I might think it. "Do as I say.. " :trainwreck

[BarryBobPosthole]

I'm sure Putin loves to hear all of this shit from Americans. It just makes him realize he doesn't have us figured wrong.

I have no issue with anything anyone wants to say about domestic issues. When we're in the shit with some other country like we are with Russia right now, then its just not right.

BKB

[LJ3]

I really and honestly not sure I give a fuck anymore :( I DID have the thought of what Obama said as his "tough talk" to Putin and the only thing that came to mind is how differently that would have been received had Reagan said it.

I'm more of an isolationist at this point. Pull every damn soldier and sailor back here. Let everyone else go fuck themselves.

[Thumper]

That was a different world Ticboy. Heck, when Ronnie spoke, even Gorbachev listened.

When this worthless POS President we have now speaks, the world laughs hysterically and continues with "business as usual".

[Chicken Dinner]

I'm sorry, but if some weird shit was going down in Mexico and our interests were threatened, we'd tell the rest if the world to go pound sand. We better not do anything more than wring our hands and send strongly worded diplomatic notes.

[Captain]

We don't have a leader. We got a guy that thinks he's some sorta King. He's a joke of the first order and I don't care of Putin himself knows I think so...

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[HideHunter]

U.S. - Russia.. It's kind of like the difference between a vandal and a thief. Right or wrong, at least when a thief gets done - he *has* something. A vandal just causes a bunch of damage and leaves with nothing. We need to keep our social and military graffiti to ourselves. I've said it before and I agree with Len - everyone says "This is a global economy. We can't be isolationists." Bullshit.. Personally I think a health dose of isolationism is *exactly* what we need.

[Penguin]

Hmmmm.... do I or don't I? WTH. Say it out loud and be done with it.

First off Ukraine isn't a nation. It isn't even a country. It is a mishmash of the remains of old empires, a touch of ancient memories, and a demographic nightmare resulting from an injection of Russian blood when they overrun the locals to take their farm output decades ago. Hell, only about 1/4 of the country even considers themselves Ukrainian. There really isn't a national consensus on where they wish to go because you have a nation divided ethnically by language, religion, heritage and everything else you can name.

Secondly, the nation has been looted. It is flat broke. The reason Russia hasn't just taken the whole thing whole is that they don't wish to be saddled with the national debt that Ukraine has rung up. And, TBH, the Europeans don't want to take them under their umbrella for the same reason. Like a lot of other nations that followed the Washington consensus they opened up their economy to liberalization and it was looted top to bottom by a bunch of oligarchs. Whomever becomes Ukraine's backer is taking on an immediate $35 Billion obligation that will only grow each year. In a nation with no viable economy. And unpayable debt.

Thirdly, Europe depends on Russia to send them natural gas. They can't warm their homes or cook their meals without Russian natural gas. Fact. If there were to be a real live shooting war where Europe took on Russia then most of Europe would endure unimaginable pain after this gas supply was cut off. Not to mention that most of Europe doesn't even have a viable army anymore.

Fourth, this was a legitimate, democratically elected government that was just overthrown. The fact is that democracy has failed. As it sometimes does. The answer is to have a constitutional convention and come up with something new. A very dangerous proposition even under the most benign of situation. Given the choice this nation would probably divide itself up. It is not a true nation under the most generous of definitions and the populace would likely split up if given the chance.

Fifth, Russia isn't giving up its only port into the Black Sea. Period. And if you think they will sit back and allow some hodgepodge of a new government to sprout up and do so you are dreaming. Take Crimea and you have war.

In the end there isn't a ~good~ solution to this mess. The best way to address it is to split the country up and write off this unpayable debt. The nation would still endure incredible poverty but at least they would have a fresh start without the burdens of past looting hanging over their heads. But that will probably not be allowed. You see the banks that own this debt are already in deep trouble. They wield a hell of a lot of power in the nations that are yammering about this problem. They are "our" oligarchs.

And that is why all of this talk of war is so hypocritical.

No one, not even Europe or the US, has the interests of the Ukrainian people at the top of their concerns. And even if we did there is no good solution. Only bad ones and worse ones. It is another one of those examples where military force has its limits. We could invade, bring the entire brunt of the US military to bear in order to protect the status quo and it would not matter. The place is a mess and will be a decade or five from now no matter what is done.

Will

[Chicken Dinner]

You sure talk purty sometimes...

[HideHunter]

Will.. I'm glad you said said it. This place never ceases to amaze me. How did I get so lucky as to hang out with this bunch of smart people? ;)

[Penguin]

Will.. How did I get so lucky as to hang out with this bunch of smart people? ;)

Must have pissed off someone somewhere along the line. :)

We invaded Grenada for a hell of a lot less. We have done it many times AAMOF. Russia has an urgent need in Ukraine and we don't. Most of the Russians in the eastern part of the country don't want anything to do with an independent western Ukraine that shows every indication of sliding into fascism... especially when ~they~ are the object of the racial hatreds.

Smart thing to do is try to get the best deal for the most people and leave this one alone.

Will

[LJ3]

I'm good with that :)

How do you stay on top of all this stuff, Willie? It's impressive. I can't remember what the hell I made for dinner over the weekend.

[Penguin]

On this particular topic I knew next to nothing about it a month ago aside from some knowledge of how Russia had used demographics and forced expulsion to neutralize the Tartars and Ukrainians. But for the last month or so it has been a hot topic on the blogs I follow. Lots of folks from the general region helped educate me. Nothing like that to point you in the right direction.

History in that part of the world is so messy that it takes a while to understand even something pretty simple.

Will

[hotshot]

interesting piece of history over the last 15 years....
WE invaded Iraq, under the premise of taking out WMD's.... Granted we were technically mopping from the decade before.
Mogadishu??? Grenada- mentioned above... so its okay for us to invade places in the name of democracy, then stick around for a decade, leave and let the place fall to pieces in civil war.... But we can't let the Russians do it?
on a side note: he couldn't get the olympic committee out of town fast enough huh?