What's going on???

[Buckrub]

http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=BLOOM&date=20140409&id=17510313

Not a place for folks to yammer about their chauvinistic choices in vehicles. Stow it.

What's going on? GM, Toyota, on and on.........all SAFETY issues, not just some minor inconvenience.

Manufacturing processes should be 'down pat' by now.......and automated (meaning repeatable every single time).....but something is not right. Engineering? Cost cutting decisions? What?

What's going on???

[BarryBobPosthole]

Vehicles have become more complicated as they've been changed to make them safer. Can you imagine a recall for a seat rail in the 70's? Wouldn't have happened because a: things like that weren't even tested and b: because cars barely ad seat belts and states didn't even have seat belt laws then. So looking back to the good old days when things were built with better quality is really not a realistic comparison IMO.

Hopefully Toyota learned its lesson as did GM on their last fiasco and they're just being overly cautious this time.

BKB

[jb]

It use to be the car companies would test new products for a year or so before going into production to get all the kinks out, now it's easier to do recalls and have the public test the product.
Part of the problem is the technology is coming so fast if they test it for a year it's already old and something new and better is here.

[airbud7]

Ford pinto recall was real...everything else is lawyer money......

2868

[Buckrub]

She does look like she might have been.

[Thumper]

Yep, cars these days are like mini-space shuttles with all the technology and electronics involved. The difference is, NASA uses triple back-ups to handle most any sort of technical failure ... yet they STILL have failures! I agree with P-hole ... in the old days ... cars were very basic, yet there were still failures. I couldn't tell you how many times I'd see broken motor mounts (VERY common) and on heavy acceleration, the engine would lift up off the mount and jam the accelerator. Back then, nobody thought a thing about it ... we'd simply replace the motor mount ... IF the car didn't get wrecked first. Heck, nowadays, many cars don't even HAVE accelerator cables ... they have "throttle position sensors, which sends a signal through a wire to a computer that sends a signal through another wire to the fuel injectors and tells them how much fuel to squirt. LOTS of places along the line for failure.

[Buckrub]

You guys, especially Jim, know SO much more than I do on this.

My take is strictly as a consumer. I get it that these things are computers on wheels. I have always hated extended warranties, but I got one on my new truck solely because I discovered that 80% of all maintenance/shop issues are electronic!! This thing tells me so much info, I am almost lost! So I figured I'd better warranty those for 10 years. I get it.

But the other side, in my goofy way of thinking, is........"Geez, they have this down pat. Yeah, there are a LOT of systems involved, more than ever. But....the implementation of these fancy designs, the installation, the actual implementation of them, should be just routine. It should be same, same, same, same, without the the slightest change from one to the other". YET, one vehicle does great at X, and the next one off the line breaks down. The next two work fine, the next one has yet another issue downstream. If you don't believe me, go on the Duramaxforum.com with me, and listen to these guys. 90% claim these are the best made things ever........and 10% have crazy recurring issues with X or Y or Z, or rarely X AND Y.....and hate 'em. It's same on every forum, including the camping trailer forum.

So why is that??? Why can't they make every one of them the same? I have same question on gun manufacturers. Savage made smokeless muzzleloaders. I have one. The barrels are stamped, machined.......yet one of them is "tight" to load and the next 9 are easy. It's same issue.

What is the deal?? I don't know if there IS an answer........but this is bugging me.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Not sure there is an answer. If there is I don't know it.

There are five on-board computers on my new truck. I'm sure its the same for yours. the scary part of it is most of them aren't designed to give you information but to run your vehicle.

BKB

[Buckrub]

I don't KNOW how many it has. But the number of sensors is stunning. My truck, quite literally here, has "Lane Departure Warning". It will vibrate the LEFT side of the driver's seat if you veer off course to the left (hit the yellow line in middle of 2 lane road, for example), and vibrate the RIGHT side of the driver's seat if you veer off course to the right (the white line). It has cameras that know this. Just thinking of how all this works, the systems required to make this happen, boggles my pea brain.

It has Park Assist (beeps if you get too close to stuff, any of the 4 sides), a backup camera (almost standard nowadays), Stabilitrak, Electronic Traction Control, Hill Ascent Control, built in Navigation, 8" display screen, 4.3" display screen, USB ports, 110 ac port, 12v ports, tire sensors that display actual real time tire pressure, DEF fluid percentage, oil left left, trans fluid temperature, fuel mileage last 50, 100, 200, 400, forever, and custom, and some kind of connection to a smartphone app where I can tell anything about my truck on my Phone, start it, kill it, lock the doors, unlock, read diagnostics, you name it. I have no idea what all I'm forgetting.

That is a TON OF STUFF TO GO WRONG.

But if it doesn't go wrong, man, what a deal.

I don't know much of all that runs my vehicle vs. gives me info. I get it that this is a lot of stuff. I understand that the more stuff you add, the more that can go wrong or be recalled. But why?

My question is WHY? What is wrong with the manufacturing process that they can't make these correctly to start with?????

[BarryBobPosthole]

I don't know this for a fact but I suspect the reason is the same reason that customers suffer many of the service related issues they do nowadays. We've only rewarded those companies who manage to turn in improving EBITDA quarter after quarter year after year and the only way to do that is to continually drive cost out of their business. I'd venture to guess that the top line revenue numbers for auto manufacturers, with the possible exception of during the economic crisis, are not growing very fast. The only way to please the stockholders is to reduce cost. You can only get so much blood out of a turnip before it starts to show up in various ways. Service issues are one of them.

We live in a stupid world and this is one of the stupider things about it. But we're in this cycle. Otherwise we couldn't retire at early ages and so forth and our country couldn't compete with places where their 12 year old workers get paid ten cents an hour.

I just suspect that though.

BKB

[Buckrub]

I got ten cents an hour when I was 12. And even for 'their' workers, you can't equate ten cents an hour to OUR ten cents. And you grossly exaggerate, also, I believe. I Googled this, and there are lots of hits, but this is the first one that came up on Google:
http://www.independent.org/publications/working_papers/article.asp?id=1369

I also got a penny a bale (hay) when I was 14.

I was with you on the first paragraph. I got lost trying to tie in retirement ages to that, though. Course, I'm not very smurt.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Your truck was built in Mexico where they have such sweat shops. Mine was built in Texas by Amuricans. and the comment about early retirement was tongue in cheek. But companies that are overly concerned with their stock prices, which affects retirement incomes greatly, are typically the ones who'd sacrifice their mother for a point of EBITDA. Customers really aren't on their priority list. Again, this is an opinion. It may be true or not.

BKB

[Buckrub]

My truck was built in Flint, MI.

Here is some interesting data, trying to get back to the original thread(ha):

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs/post--study-mercedes-has-lowest-vehicle-recall-rate-bmw-is-most-responsive-to-repairs

[airbud7]

2869


Nuff said!!!

[Thumper]

Buckster, ANYTHING mechanical can break down. In normal production, no two parts are exactly alike. Sure, with the advent of computers and lasers, tolerances are a TON closer than they were a few years ago, but one part can last 50 years while the same part that was next in line during production can fail in a month. That's the law of mechanics.

Car's are complicated these days ... one reason is government intervention and the cost of fuel these days. It takes a LOT of money, engineering and technology to squeeze an extra mpg from today's engines. As for the technology ... heck, I grew up around cars. If a neighbor's car wouldn't start, I could go over and most likely get it running when I was in grade school. By the time I was 12, I could take an engine apart and put it back together. Fixing cars became my career for 20+ years. But ya' know what? If my car stops running these days, I know there's no real reason to even open the hood ... it's time to call a tow truck.

ONE major factor in today's automobiles is a fact you've already mentioned.


I understand that the more stuff you add, the more that can go wrong or be recalled.

[Buckrub]

Sidebar: I'm surprised Posthole would buy a truck not made/assembled by the UAW!!??!!! :)

[BarryBobPosthole]

Nah, I don't make many decisions based on politics. Too restrictive. I'd rather be a libertine....i.e. devoid of all moral restraint.


BKB

[Thumper]

I'm thinkin' of makin' this x-ray my new avatar. :D

http://www.toyotatruckclub.com/forum/data/avatars/l/1/1280.jpg?1384280618

[Buckrub]

Posthole: Take me wid ya.

Thumper: ANYTHING is better than what you have.

[Captain]

The guys we have here helping rebuild the corral and some new fence lines drives the big Toyota truck. TODAY it would not start or even turn over. You could hear a click. My thought was starter.

So he called AAA and they came and hauled it off. This was about noontime and I had gone to pick up lunch and was bummed I was not there to get a picture of it on the wrecker. ;)

We are halfway between Florence SC and Charlotte NC. He opted to haul it to Charlotte where they replaced the starter. 880.00 bucks later he is on the road again.... At least with a Chevy I CAN still put a starter on.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[BarryBobPosthole]

Just so I got this right: you post an article somehow justifying sweatshops as a good thing all the while you complain about the service you get from foreigners.


BKB

[Buckrub]

You seem confused on both counts......

Cappy, dang you. What a great pic that woulda been.

[Thumper]

Cappy, dang you. What a great pic that woulda been.

I agree! Prolly would'a brought a TON of $$$ on eBay due to it's rarity! :D

[Thumper]

And now it's Ford's turn ... like building frames and seats is something new.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/ford-recalls-435000-vehicles-23224770