They're burning the tires off of 'em!

[BarryBobPosthole]

I think Goodyear has had a problem this year. Can't believe this many teams would miss the setup in all these races where cars wreck because of tires. Of course, NasCar isn't going to say anything nrgative about a sponsor like Goodyear.

BKB

[Thumper]

Ummm, what difference would it make? It's the ONLY tire available! ;)

Yep, odd to have cars practically burning to the ground due to a shredded tire ... but other than that ... wow! Typical GREAT short-track racing tonight! Gosh, it reminds me of my Friday & Saturday nights as a kid. EVERY weekend during racing season.

I'm ready for the big one next weekend. Wanna place bets on how many cars will be taken out within the last 10 laps? ;)

[DeputyDog]

I find it strange that they have so many tire problems in Nascar. I think that Goodyear has gotten complacent since they are the only tire supplier. I can't remember the last time I've seen or heard of any type of tire problem with the Firestone tires they use in Indy Car, and that includes even "blistering". I know that F1 has had some "tyre" issues in the past, especially at Indy in 2006, but not to the extent that Goodyear has had in NASCAR recently. It seems like just about every race someone is complaining about some tire problem.

[Captain]

I'm sure the problem is caused by iPhones, I read it at another site....

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Thumper]

Lots and lots of differences Deppity. One thing is weight ... NASCAR runs their cars at 3200 lbs. while an Indy car runs 1500-1600 lbs. (can't remember persactly) You also have sidewall strength issues to take into account ... NASCAR cars are banging sides, rubbing or bouncing off the walls and are CONSTANTLY turning the same direction (except for a few of those stinkin' "sporty car" road race courses) throwing a lot of that 3200 lb inertia onto the o/s tires, etc, etc, etc. Also remember, NASCAR tires are much narrower than open wheel tires and you have less tire taking more weight/stress. If an Indy car is scrubbing tires, the driver can push a button to adjust his spoiler while he's racing! The list of differences is endless and although they're all race cars, comparing Indy and NASCAR is like comparing apples and oranges.

Sure, that's no excuse, just some major factors. The absolute biggest problem (known from personal experience around the teams) is crews messing with (read: pushing the limits) of tire pressure recommendations. Goodyear tests their tires and generally, there's a different tire for every track. The tires are also different for left and right sides. On some tracks, the tire itself is divided with it's tread compounds ... one side of the tire may have a hard compound (for wear) and the remaining portion may be soft for traction. (I'm talking about differences in a single tire, not tire position). Therefore, tire pressures are critical and given out to each team (by Goodyear) before a race. The problem is, teams VERY often go below the minimum recommendations for tire pressure because it's easier (FASTER) to make tire pressure adjustments than it is to make chassis adjustments during a race. BUT, it boils down to the same old thing every time there's a problem ... Goodyear will blame the teams and the teams will blame Goodyear. (from personal observation, it's USUALLY the teams) They got away with X-pounds below specs last week at so-and-so track, but when they went the same amount below specs at this week's track, tires started falling apart. Different track/different tire ... the argument won't hold water.

As for Goodyear being the only option? They tried multiple manufacturers a few years back. They had Goodyear and Hoosier. It started out okay ... but then all hell broke loose. If one mfg. went a bit soft on their compound (better traction) ... all the teams jumped on that tire. To counter, the other mfg. would soften their compound for the next track and the teams would jump back on THEIR bandwagon! It turned into a tire war until they got so soft they'd only last a handful of laps before they'd wear out or BLOW out! It was a dismal failure and they went back to the single tire manufacturer (Goodyear) after only a few seasons. Goodyear is NOT going to get lax on their tire development ... NASCAR is a multi-bazillion dollar advertisement deal for them. Think about it, they'd be cutting their own throats to have a "give a shit attitude" due to no "competition" at the track. It would be pretty piss-poor advertising to have tires falling apart every Sunday on National television ... what would that do for sales on Monday? It would be dumb to even think such a thing.

Face it ... there are going to be some days there will be problems and the drivers will bitch and moan. The next week, they'll be talking about what a great tire they had.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Well it may not be the tire's fault, but that tired SUCKED at Richmond last night.

BKB

[Thumper]

True dat. ;)

That said, it was a short-track where traction is king. I'd still be curious to know how far the teams were stretching the limits on tire pressures.

[BarryBobPosthole]

There was a little short track scufflin' going on but it was mainly just a couple of young roosters sparring. I think somebody connected on a punch.

BKB

[DeputyDog]

Jim, I understand the differences, but don't you think that the Indy Car teams mess with tire pressures too? There are some pretty smart guys in Indy Car and I'm sure they push the limits for performance just like they do in NASCAR, but yet they don't have the tire problems. I wasn't really trying to compare the two, but was using it as an example. I guess if a tire company specializes in tires for heavy duty trucks that did the same thing all the time hauling the same weight every time, you would expect that tire company to be able to produce a product that did the job without many problems.

Yes, they can make some chasis adjustments in car in Indy Cars that NASCAR can't do. They can't change wing angle but they can make changes to the sway bars and what they call "weight-jackers" which can switch some of the ballast weight to a specific corner of the car to increase traction to that wheel. Another factor to consider is that the Indy Cars are running an average of 50 MPH faster when they run on an oval, since I'm not a physics major, I don't know how that changes things given the weight difference.

The weight difference shouldn't make any difference in how the tires perform since they are using tires built specifically for stock cars. They aren't trying to run Indy Car tires on a stock car just like you wouldn't expect a pick-up truck to handle a heavy load if you have passenger car tires on it.

I guess my point was that if you are building a tire specifically for a certain race series, using the same car that you used last year, (I don't remember when they switched to this generation of car), and running on the same tracks that you have raced on for years, (I know that re-paving and grinding of tracks changes the characteristics and tire performance) I'd think that you wouldn't have so many problems.

I remember the "tire wars" in Indy Car in the 70's when Goodyear started providing tire to some of the teams. That was one of the factors in the speeds increasing so quickly, that along with the addition of wings and the introduction of ground effects. It was also a safety concern because of the reasons that you mentioned. Back then, Firestone quit the series and stayed out of Indy Car racing for about 20 years before they got back into it in the mid 90's. Then Goodyear got out and concentrated on providing tires for NASCAR.

[airbud7]

Making an indestructible tire is easy....Will it win a race?...No...Winning is everything, nobody cares if your tires lasted 500 laps if you came in 43 place.

[BarryBobPosthole]

The tires were barely lasting half a fuel run at Richmond. That's a race changer. Just ask the guys that damn near burnt down.

BKB

[Thumper]

Sorry Depity, for some reason I seemed to recall they could do some spoiler adjustments from the cab. Maybe I dreamed it ... or got confused with chassis adjustments. I usually watch Indy ... but that's about it for me. Those uppity foreign prima donna rich boys kinda get on my nerves most of the time. :D

Yep P-hole ... I'd say they had a problem all right. I decided to do a quick net search as I was curious as to whether Goodyear got in any test sessions for this tire. I ran across this ... it's from the beginning of this month, but is pretty relevant. They also mention the multi-zone tire in this article. I'd think it'd be tough for NASCAR to get too involved because tire pressures change with heat. They normally roll out of the pits with a lower pressure and the car doesn't really start handling until they've run a few laps and built up some heat/pressure. Of course, if they're off, they may handle better right from the get-go and fall apart once they get a bit of heat in the tires.

http://espn.go.com/dallas/story/_/id/10722523/nascar-puts-tire-pressure-drivers-teams-not-goodyear

FORT WORTH, Texas -- NASCAR will not regulate tire pressures at Texas Motor Speedway, and if drivers have tire failures during Sunday's race officials believe they won't be able to blame Goodyear.

Hoping to give more control over setups and strategy to race teams, NASCAR is refusing to get involved in monitoring whether teams choose to follow recommendations set each week by Goodyear.

There were multiple tire issues at California two weeks ago, and many drivers tried to blame the product Goodyear brought to the track. NASCAR insisted the issues were self-inflicted and a product of teams going far beyond the air pressure limits recommended by the manufacturer.

With a handful of drivers predicting similar problems this weekend at Texas, NASCAR vice president of competition Robin Pemberton said each team controls its own fate.

"We want to be open enough to give the teams opportunity to adjust and have different setups out there and be more aggressive or less aggressive whenever they sit fit," Pemberton said Thursday. "We want the teams to be able to push the limit, and that's what we expect out of them. If a guy has a tire issue that is self-inflicted and gets out of the car and blames Goodyear Tire and Rubber Co., that's a bad deal. That basically is what some of them tried to do at California."

Goodyear each week presents teams minimum pounds per square inch pressure recommendations based on both testing and data from previous tires. NASCAR has maintained the majority of failures at California occurred when teams decided to go below the recommended pressure.

"I think there are some guys that went too far at California and it cost them opportunities, and there are guys that were more calculated and didn't go overboard and capitalized," Pemberton said. "So here we are coming to Texas, another fast race track, and there's concern that they will overuse the tires. But Goodyear is ahead of it and told them what it takes to fail and what it takes to succeed on left side tire pressures and it's up to teams to use them properly."

Goodyear this week presented teams a chart of recommended inflation pressures and times before a possible failure based on testing data. The manufacturer will use for the first time this season the multi-zone tread tire, which combines two distinct rubber compounds on the same right-side tire. The compound used on the outside 10 inches of the tread is designed for traction, and the compound on the inside two inches is designed for durability.

The inside compound is tougher to provide the tire a cushion for the heat and abuse it takes on certain tracks.

Goodyear used the multi-zone tire last year at Atlanta and Kansas to fairly positive feedback from drivers. Texas was a good fit because the track abuses tires and produces high speeds and loads -- which both should be up this year with the current configuration of the cars.

The left side tires being used at Texas are the same as those used at the track the last two races. The right sides are the new multi-zone tires and were not track tested. Goodyear instead lab-tested the tires, attempting to replicate actual race conditions.

Goodyear director of race tire sales Greg Stucker said the lab verifies tire performance and validates pressure recommendations.

"Once we generate this data, confirming our recommendation and at which air pressures the tires need to be run, we share that information with the teams," Stucker said. "Teams have asked for some flexibility with how they set up their cars. This information is just another tool in their toolbox."

Four-time series champion Jeff Gordon questioned Goodyear's decision not to physically test the tires at Texas.

"I think we will see issues there. We saw issues there last year," Gordon said. "I think as a team we are already looking at things that we were doing last year that we can look at trying to improve as far as abusiveness on the tires for Texas. From what I understand, they didn't test in California, and I think that that was obviously a mistake because I think some of those things may have shown up in that test. Did they test in Texas? And if they didn't, then I hope they have a backup plan because I do think that we are going to have some issues there."

Pemberton said it is up to the teams to walk the fine line of pushing the limits Goodyear gives them in an effort to rise in what's shaping up to be a very competitive season.

"We want people to be aggressive. We've asked the tire manufacturer to bring better tires, we've got a better car this year than last year and we've opened up the window of opportunity with teams to either succeed or fail," Pemberton said. "All of those things coming together this year have brought us some great racing."


Copyright 2014 by The Associated Press

[DeputyDog]

AirBud, that would matter if there were different tire manufacturers. That's why tire competiton is so dangerous to the competitors and most racing series' go with only one tire provider. You can still win if everyone is using the same indestructable tire.

[Thumper]

Here's my take. EVERYTHING racing related these days is pushed to the edge of it's limits ... including tires. In the name of safety, there are rules and regulations in place to insure an environment that's as safe as possible. These cars run full roll cages. Weight is EVERYTHING in a race car. Don't you think thin walled tubing could be used in the roll bars to shave off a few pounds? Yes. But it would be ridiculous to compromise safety and use "sub-par" tubing ... so it's regulated in the rule book. There are a bazillion examples, but what could be more important than tires? ALL the cars run on tires just as ALL cars have roll bars. What's the difference between running "below specs" tire pressures to gain a competitive edge and running "below specs" roll bar tubing to gain a competitive edge? Tires are pushed to their limits anyway and are designed to run within certain air pressure ranges. Are you going to load your pickup with a weeks worth of camping gear, then hitch up a 10,000 pound trailer to the rear, THEN just before you pull out of the driveway, drop your tire pressures to 18 lbs. then head out to the Interstate to start your 80 mph drive to your favorite camping spot? Doubtful.

The teams need to quit relying on tire pressures so much. They have the "if a little bit is good, even more would be better" attitude at times. If a car is ill-handling due to a blown set-up ... don't adjust the set-up, just let some air out of the tires! The fix wouldn't be impossible ... have tire pressures checked by a tech inspector before they go on a car. "Heat build-up pressure" can be calculated, but have a minimum pressure COLD. Make it a rule depending on tire mfg supplied specs. OR, almost all cars have tire pressure monitors built into them these days ... even my old pick-up has 'em. Hook that system to a monitor, a recorder or transmitter even ... some way to record what the teams are doing with these pressures. With the bazillion entries in the NASCAR rule book, I find it silly that there are NO restrictions on tire pressures or going against mfg's specs. Why? I'm sure there is a spec. that covers the minimum tensile strength of seat belt bolts, but tire pressures are open to whatever the Crew Chief decides is okay.

Look at Kyle Busch in the California race last month. Half the dang field ... and especially the top runners had tire problems. Kyle had ZERO tire issues and WON the race. Why? He ran the same tires everyone else was running. My guess is they ran conservative tire pressures and chassis set-up. They may have been a tiny bit slower than the top runners, but what good does it do to go fast, but not finish?

Here's another way to look at it. Compare qualifying with racing ... two totally different birds. To qualify, you have to make that car circle the track as fast and physically possible ... for a SHORT run. One trick ... tape off the grille opening. This adds a tremendous amount of down force ... great for a couple laps of qualifying, but the engine would turn itself inside out if you tried to race it that way. So, open the grille up for race day ... you'll be slower, but the engine won't be a hand grenade. The teams will have to find a balance ... during a race, they'll add as much tape as possible right to the ragged edge of over-heating ... too little, you're slower ... too much, you head to the garage dragging your connecting rods.

There's "qualifying oil" and "race oil" ... run as thin an oil as possible to qualify ... run that same oil in a race and .... well, you'll be dragging those same con-rods to the garage.

In qualifying, you get really aggressive with tire camber ... GREAT for a few FAST laps, but you won't last a run between pit-stops with that set-up on race day. What do you think the crews are going to do during a race if you're a tad on the slow side? Dial in a little camber ... ooops, too much ... you just ate a tire after only 25 laps! Damn you Goodyear! Heck, I don't even have to repeat all I've said about crews adjusting tire pressures ... it's all in the same category. If they find the "edge" ... the point to where they can push the envelope ... they'll come out a winner. Cross that barrier by getting too aggressive ... you're in the wall and cussing the tire manufacturer who told you up front NOT to do it!

Don't get me wrong ... I ain't saying a tire is never at fault ... I'm just saying to throw all the blame at Goodyear is bullshit. Just ask Kyle Busch about Fontana. :D

[DeputyDog]

I agree with you that the teams will try every trick they can to get an advantage in every form of racing. I don't know if Indy Car has a rule on tire pressures since they have real time telemetry for everything the car is doing they might have and it is easily monitored during the race for every car. The only complaint you hear from any Indy Car drivers about the tires is how fast they go off and not that they fail, but the car changes so much during each stint, but even then, there are no tire fires, blow outs or even blistering just the mediocre drivers complaining that the car changed so much and became harder to drive.

I guess the biggest problem is that NASCAR is still using 30 year old technology for their race cars and they just aren't as advanced as open wheel racing.:stirthepot

[Thumper]

I guess the biggest problem is that NASCAR is still using 30 year old technology for their race cars and they just aren't as advanced as open wheel racing.

And that's the whole point of NASCAR ... keeping the cost factor down ... which means "low-tech" and more people able to enjoy participating in the sport. That's why they stayed with carburetors and no telemetry for so long as an example ... to keep costs down. Heck, a race-ready cup car costs UNDER $200,000 vs. an Indy car price tag of $7,000,000!!! (there's a big difference in zeros there!) Heck, just an Indy chassis alone runs $300,000 - $350,000 ... add $2,000,000+ (literally) for a dang engine and it makes that silly $45,000 steering wheel sound like a bargain! :stirthepot

[BarryBobPosthole]

I swear, you'd defend the NASCAR 'establishment' if they painted swastikas on the cars. I remember you lamely defended NASCAR when they docked Junior a bunch of points for saying 'shit' over his radio. something about family values.

Harrumph!

BKB

[Thumper]

I'm a registered Republican ... what are you? :D

[BarryBobPosthole]

Just an Okie is all, I'm afraid.

BKB

[Thumper]

:biggrin

[DeputyDog]

Yep, I guess your're right, NASCAR is better because it's sooo much more relevant to what you see in production cars today. I know that the manufacturers are really happy that they finally introduces fuel injection since they really use it as a selling point on the street cars. I know that the direct injection V4 and V6 2.2 - 2.7 liter engines that Indy Car uses aren't at all practical or relevant in street cars now days. :crazy:biggrin

[Captain]

Now you talking Deputy... Walk toward the light. :-)

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Thumper]

Ha ha ha! Ya' think he's REALLY a convert Cappy? Sumpin' tells me he's playin' us like we're the NASCAR bumpkins those open-wheeled boys think we are. :D

[BarryBobPosthole]

If they mess with us too much, we'll send Danica back over there to straighten them out.

BKB

[Thumper]

Touche'! :encouragement:

(I'd still do her though!) :HitIt

[DeputyDog]

I guess I didn't make my sarcasm obvious enough. I haven't bought a vehicle in a while, but I thought that the trend was towards small fuel efficient engines that still have high performance and away from big V8's that just recently were able to run on unleaded gas and just became fuel injected. Silly me.

[airbud7]

Touche'! :encouragement:

(I'd still do her though!) :HitIt

Yep^ Me too Thump...

2955

[johnboy]

Now that is downright perky! :HitIt Course you know what Thump's gonna say.

[Thumper]

Ummm, I "think" Thump already said it! ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

I'd start a new race. The Mustache Ride 500.

BKB

[airbud7]

hahaha^....Gentlemen, start your ******'s...