Insight about a tornado event.....

[Big Muddy]

This was posted by a young man on another hunting site, after the recent rash of tornadoes here in MS.



"""Louisville, MS is totaled on the southeast side of town going out to the country. It passed less than half a mile from where we were hunkered down. We left out to go help our neighbors but had to leave because we were put under another warning. It was hard to do because upon arrival there were three homes where the occupants were known to be home but were missing. One of those persons was still missing this morning. And I am not talking about persons who you are "familiar" with.- I am talking about folks who we shook hands with Sunday morning at church. We got out to the destruction zone around 7:00 to help.

Around 9:00 we cleared a road and arrived at a place where we started to search for a missing family. It was in a trailer park and we looked for a couple hours and gave up because the damage was too much to sift through in the dark. I also had to go check on my grandmother who's neighborhood was in the outer zone of the destruction area and many others had amassed to help search. They found them today, the parents are dead, their child is still missing- last I heard. I felt a feeling of dread when I heard this, but in a situation of mass chaos like that there are others who may need help- who NEEDED help. And backup had arrived. Something, (my conscious or mere brain matter as modern science calls it; I call it the Holy Spirit- stupid, I know) told me to move on. And for reasons I will not mention, I know it was the right move. For things I saw and experienced on the way as I searched for those in need as I dreadfully tried to clear my mind of what I would find when I got within sight of my grandma's house, I know it was the right thing to do. As evil on earth surrounded me in that darkness and the sounds of sirens, helicopters, screams, hollering from search parties looking for the missing filled my ears; as I walked through a neighborhood I rode bikes in, had bottle rocket wars in, played in: the signs of His presence were everywhere. Because evil is given authority on this earth but only so much (if it had full and unchecked authority it would destroy us all at first chance), the signs of Him were literally everywhere. I felt dread upon hearing they were found dead, that I left after a couple of hours, but I know I needed to move on for the reason- and only for the reason- to strengthen my own walk.


Whole neighborhoods are gone. The whole damn neighborhood. Our neighbors down the road have nothing in terms of possessions as do many others.

Our hospital is officially inoperable and closed down. My girlfriend and others who worked there are without jobs. The doctor's offices are gone, the E.R. is gone and the hospital itself is totaled. We managed to get my girlfriend and her mother to triage and went from there helping out. First place I went and checked was duckiller's parents' house. The structure is there, but it is devastated. Keep them in your prayers. Their neighbor's house 75 yards to the north is gone.

A lot of stories about miracles. We went to help a neighbor clean up and the only thing left standing was a section of his house where his kitchen was. On top of the cabinets were all sorts of decorative type stuff. It was all gone, except a cross. What, in those 200 mph winds, kept that item in place? The closet he was in was untouched. It hadn't moved. A very good friend of ours and her mother and brother were hunkered down in their bathtub- it was the only thing left on the slab. There are too many other miraculous stories of coincidence, luck, physics, chemistry, etc that are relived every day across this planet. Most of us choose not to pay much, if any, attention to them (I got that t-shirt, thank you). If we do, we attribute the events to the above-mentioned ways of reasoning. But as Romans 1:20 explains to us all: ignore at our own peril. I am here to tell the scientists, the skeptics, the fools who call me a fool: what I saw and experienced starting days before, during and after this event, were not of this world and cannot be explained away. In your minds, I will always be an enemy; in my mind, you will always be an opportunity. But you will know that no matter what, I KNOW what is the Truth. I thought I knew, now I know.

I cannot understate how devastating it was to the southeast side of the city/county.

I also cannot understate how glad I am that me and Jesus came to terms in recent times. I was glad as I watched that radar, as I heard the radio call the Mill Creek community as being a direct target for a tornado emergency, as I heard it outside while it snapped trees and shook the house, as I heard the massive noise of the rain fall silent as it was sucked up- almost as if it (the tornado) cleared the air of noise so it wouldn't have any of its horrific characteristics dulled by the rain- I was glad for the first time in life that I had Jesus.

And ironically, the 6 of us who were hunkered down were all true believers (and you will find out if you ever go through such). And ironically, as the hour of reckoning came and it (the tornado aka death) was no doubt in our midst, we all, as if simultaneously, were overcome with a feeling of comfort and peace. Through deep, deeeeeep prayer, we were comforted. And from there, we went from a feeling of utmost terror and horrific realization of our humanity to, as if instantly, a feeling of utmost peace and acceptance. I said, as it was close to passing over (or so we thought), "I am not scared anymore." and everyone else said, "I'm not either!" Make no mistake: we were sure that we were headed for death, but it didn't matter.

It's like watching a murderer march across your yard, slowly, with a intent to kill you in an extremely violent way- and not be able to do a DAMN thing about it. When you are put under a tornado warning and you know it is on the ground and marching across your town and you have updates from a spotter on the ground and you know...you know, that your neighbors are going through pure and evil hell on earth and you are next: is one of helpless fear. The only thing Louisville had that increased that fear was the fact that we were under a tornado emergency- so then we KNEW that we were in trouble. We KNEW that monster was killing people we were friends and family with. And that helpless fear was shed in the last few minutes of what we thought were our lives by nothing less than our faith in Him.

So praise be to Jesus for our time we have been granted here on earth. I thought I knew, but now I KNOW: on this earth, all is futile.

Every bit of this life is futile. And it is a wonderful thing to know."""

[Buckrub]

Believers believe, Disbelievers disbelieve.

I watched a local news show on all this yesterday. I was about to go to bed crying when the phone rang. Our 5 year old grandson in Clarksville, TN, called just bawling. Or his Mama did. He heard about a tornado on the news, heard "Arkansas" and thought we were dead. He went into pure panic. It took a lot of talking to calm him down. Broke my heart in half.

Hunter spent a bunch of time in Missouri when that place was hit. Now many more towns. It's the way of Weather in the south. It's the price we pay to fish liquid water all year, and use heat pumps for heat, and wear lots fewer clothes most of the time. But it's a high price sometimes. Sure makes petty disagreements seems a bit silly.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Amen to that.

BKB

[Thumper]

My heart goes out to ALL involved. It was a WEATHER event ... Satan and/or God had nothing to do with it.

And not to just throw sand in the ointment, but can someone please explain to me why He lets His own house/followers be destroyed/killed? Oh, nevermind, I've heard it before ... God works in mysterious ways.

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/torn030512/t04_40251060.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/29/article-0-0BCD94F500000578-596_964x619.jpg https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSVGwiTJKSYV-sfDckiiQfkuBUoqnJwC3PbvV6FIKW-IEc55dKl

[johnboy]

Thump, you must suspend all rational thought if you are, as Bucky says, a 'believer'.

[Thumper]

Wouldn't that make me "irrational"? :D

[Buckrub]

I'm not a smart man, as most of you know. But I'm no idiot either. I do take a lot of umbrage to being told I've suspended all rational thought. I am a Believer BECAUSE I've spent decades considering all things deeply, and it's the only rational conclusion I can come up with. To be honest, the view of the Unbeliever is, to me, the most irrational line of reasoning I can imagine. Everyone will be a Believer some day, and I don't want you looking over your shoulder trying to find me at that time.

I'll discuss it at any time, but you have to use actual logic and not your superstitious silliness about one atom (origin unknown) becoming a universe!!! :beerbust (Seriously, I do not know the details of the origin of the Universe, nor does my lack of knowing disturb my Belief in any way!!)

[BarryBobPosthole]

The way storms act sometimes its hard not to believe that they have some sort or guidance of some kind. and that they have an affinity to trailer parks.

BKB

[Thumper]

(Seriously, I do not know the details of the origin of the Universe, nor does my lack of knowing disturb my Belief in any way!!)

Well, ya' know sumpin' ... I don't KNOW the origin either ... in fact, I'd say at this point in time, NOBODY does. Fairy tales have been made up all around the world and passed off through the ages as known fact, for so many years and generations that people now believe these tales to be fact (or the "gospel" so to speak). ;)

Funny thing is ... out of a whole slew of these fairy tales ... they are FACT in the minds of men ... BUT the problem I have is, it all depends on where you happened to be born as to which fairy tale you believe (and of course I'm speaking in generalities here). THAT doesn't sit well with me. What religion do you HONESTLY think you'd believe in if you had been born as a native to India, to a Hindu family? Whom would be right and whom would be wrong then?

Of course I already know your answer ... you'd read a lot and decide Christianity was the only rational decision. :stirthepot

[Thumper]

The way storms act sometimes its hard not to believe that they have some sort or guidance of some kind. and that they have an affinity to trailer parks.

That's because trailer parks are magnetic dufus! ;)

[Big Muddy]

I feel for those po'fokes down in Pensacola today, too....reports of 24 inches of rain in 24 hours....houses and cars just floating around the neighborhoods....serious sheeit, raht there.

[johnboy]

Take umbrage if you want Buckster although that was not my intention. I refuse to argue religion or any thing related to it as it is a pointless exercise. Believe whatever you want and I'll do the same. We should be able to co-exist.

[Thumper]

Take umbrage if you want Buckster although that was not my intention. I refuse to argue religion or any thing related to it as it is a pointless exercise. Believe whatever you want and I'll do the same. We should be able to co-exist.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XhbtjCGgjdY/UV8AeVRLpcI/AAAAAAAAAh8/mxpOWztXYJw/s200/thumbs-up-smiley-facebook.jpg

[Buckrub]

Well, ya' know sumpin' ... I don't KNOW the origin either ... in fact, I'd say at this point in time, NOBODY does. Fairy tales have been made up all around the world and passed off through the ages as known fact, for so many years and generations that people now believe these tales to be fact (or the "gospel" so to speak). ;)

Funny thing is ... out of a whole slew of these fairy tales ... they are FACT in the minds of men ... BUT the problem I have is, it all depends on where you happened to be born as to which fairy tale you believe (and of course I'm speaking in generalities here). THAT doesn't sit well with me. What religion do you HONESTLY think you'd believe in if you had been born as a native to India, to a Hindu family? Whom would be right and whom would be wrong then?

Of course I already know your answer ... you'd read a lot and decide Christianity was the only rational decision. :stirthepot

You're correct.

So which fairy tale do YOU believe?

[Buckrub]

Take umbrage if you want Buckster although that was not my intention. I refuse to argue religion or any thing related to it as it is a pointless exercise. Believe whatever you want and I'll do the same. We should be able to co-exist.

Johnboy, it seems that is exactly what you were doing............... at least it seemed to me.

Sure we coexist. For now. And happily so.

[LJ3]

If Jimmy hadn't stirred his normal anti-God-anti-religion-anti-spiritual beliefs, this woulda never happened. Will a tornado hit his house? I'm not sure!

[johnboy]

Just giving you an insight into my beliefs Bucky. I believe that religion is irrational and that offends you. You say the opposite and I'm not offended in any way. Believe whatever you want - it's your right and I would never dispute that but I would like the same courtesy from you.

You know that it wasn't so many years ago that 'good Christians' would have me burned at the stake for expressing my views. Never heard of the atheist community calling for anything quite so dramatic.

That's it for me on this topic.

[yellowk9]

The thing that really gets me about the "believers" that I run into is the inconsistency with which they apply things to God's actions. Whenever there is a story about a "miracle" survival arising from a tornado outbreak like this all the Christians are shouting "miracle", "God is great all the time", "thank God", etc., etc. When the opposite story is posted, everyone starts changing their tune to "it was God's will" or "God just needed another angel". There was a story with the recent tornado about a couple that lost both of their young boys (8 & 9). It was terribly sad, especially for me since I also have two little boys and can't imagine losing them. Where the hell were all the people shouting "God is great all the time"??? They were nowhere to be found. I don't proclaim to know the origins of the universe or whether there is a God or not or if he had a son named Jesus. I really don't know. I tend to believe there are powers at play that we don't understand, but I personally think those that take the Bible as the word of God are either pompous or gullible or just looking for a way to ease their own pain and doubt. After seeing tragedies unfold I always come to the conclusion that if there is an all-knowing and all-powerful God out there he is either indifferent to our needs, desires, and actions or is one temperamental asshole. Sorry if I offended any believers, but that's just the way I've always seen things. I'm sure the devil has a hold of me or something.

[Bwana]

john boy: I was going to say the Romans but I guess the Romans did believe in gods or at least that Ceasar (sp?) was a god.

Sorry but I couldn't help myself but I am currently reading "Killing Jesus" and the Romans are discussed in that book. I too am of the mindset where you believe what you want and I will do the same and neither of us should try to impose our beliefs on the other.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Yellowk9, you pretty much nailed my beliefs spot on. I don't know if there's a greater power or not, but I do lean towards there being a greater power. I think a lot of the philosophy of the Bible and of most of the religious beliefs (myths if you prefer to call them that) do make sense. For example, there must be a moral code or the human species will die out. That seems to be a rule of our evolution into what we've become. Without it, we'd still be fighting over rib bones in some cave. Now is that divinely inspired? Did God make that rule? Did the Universe? the Bible says everything is preordained and that to God time doesn't exist. In that framework, free choice then has no meaning. Because God operates in a plane without time as a dimension then he also knows the beginning, the middle, and the end of everything. So what does choice have to do with it?

There's lots of questions. I just don't have a lot of answers.

I do believe that the world has been made a better place by truly religious men and women though. Even though a lot of folks are most willing to point out the bad that's been done by churches and religions, I think the scale tilts more to the good that the bad.

Just ask any Republican! They all claim to be christians! They just KNOW Jesus wouldn't be giving out any hard earned bread or fishes to folks that don't friggin work.

BKB

[Buckrub]

Well gee. I wasn't imposing my beliefs on anyone. I was having a calm internet chat conversation about a topic with two of my buddies. I was not, and AM not, offended in any way. I did get upset at the intimation that anyone with one eye and half sense MUST suspend his total sensibilities if they even halfway believe as I do. That is sorta silly, and if 'offended' fits, then fine, but I really wasn't. I was just not going to accept that sitting down, that's all.

Johnboy, I've got a Science degree. Makes me nothing, I know. But....I studied it. And you say that believing in Everything being created by an Intelligent Design is irrational.

I guess it bothers me that you use that word. Maybe I'm picky. Maybe I'm wrong, it's possible. But irrational??? Geez man. The people who disagree with me ALL believe that the universe originated with ONE ATOM, and they don't know where that one came from. They believe it blew up, on its own, for some unknown reason, and started spitting out 'matter' (more atoms). They all swirled around for a while, and then formed Everything.

And I'm not even trying to sway that by the tone of my words. That's an accurate assessment of what They believe. It really is. The fact that everything is so mathematical, synchronized, working in unison.......is a simple coincidence to them. Heck, even the mere fact that the light from the sun is EXACTLY hidden from earth by the Moon, and no more and no less (an eclipse) is some coincidence. I have to just laugh at that. I'm sorry, but that belief is not irrational, it's hilarious.

And you say I'm irrational????? To believe that someone somewhere made all this is irrational??? Seriously?

I think this. I think those that believe as you guys do are simply afraid to believe otherwise. It is so easy (and it really is) to believe that I'm wrong. That gets you off the hook for almost everything. Of course, you have no basis for Right, or Wrong, other than your own mind. None. Y9, and Jim, I ask you this.........if there is no Right and no Wrong and no standard for determining same, then what's wrong with a tornado wiping out people and stuff? ???? Is it wrong cause you don't like it? What?

And Jim's total belief system can be summed up in one sentence.........he believes that "since there is so much confusion among all the Earth's people about religious matters, and they can't agree, and the number of belief systems is so high, then I (Jim) conclude that none of them are right". Seriously, that's your belief, isn't it? The logical conclusion of such a belief is that you only believe things that have 100% (or awfully close to it) concurrence on any subject. That too, is laughable.

Again, no offense intended, just doing what others have done here........stating my beliefs. I don't expect to convert anyone. But I also won't back off what I believe because someone falsely thinks I'm irrational, either.

There's much about my own beliefs that I question............that I am unsure of........and I have so few answers. But it's still the closest thing I can find that makes sense to me. So I live with it best I can.

[johnboy]

Amen brother!

Yep, the Romans had a long list of gods with Jupiter at the top. Very much like the Greek pantheon.

[Buckrub]

Yellowk9, you pretty much nailed my beliefs spot on. I don't know if there's a greater power or not, but I do lean towards there being a greater power. I think a lot of the philosophy of the Bible and of most of the religious beliefs (myths if you prefer to call them that) do make sense. For example, there must be a moral code or the human species will die out. That seems to be a rule of our evolution into what we've become. Without it, we'd still be fighting over rib bones in some cave. Now is that divinely inspired? Did God make that rule? Did the Universe? the Bible says everything is preordained and that to God time doesn't exist. In that framework, free choice then has no meaning. Because God operates in a plane without time as a dimension then he also knows the beginning, the middle, and the end of everything. So what does choice have to do with it?

There's lots of questions. I just don't have a lot of answers.

I do believe that the world has been made a better place by truly religious men and women though. Even though a lot of folks are most willing to point out the bad that's been done by churches and religions, I think the scale tilts more to the good that the bad.

Just ask any Republican! They all claim to be christians! They just KNOW Jesus wouldn't be giving out any hard earned bread or fishes to folks that don't friggin work.

BKB

Only a liberal would assume that none of them worked.

[BarryBobPosthole]

They had some curvy statues of them too!
BKB

[johnboy]

Well I said that I was done with this but I guess not. Bucky, I wrote a long reply to you and deleted most of it. Here is what's left.

I believe that trying to have an intelligent conversation online is difficult because of the medium. You can't look a person in the eye when you are speaking to judge their reactions and perhaps explain yourself in a better way so as not to create offense. Perhaps using the word 'irrational' was too flip and I regret that, however I do consider myself to be a reasonable person and have difficulty with the views in the OP.

To me, spirituality is an intensely personal thing, something that should be between an individual and whatever deity or concept they might believe in. I do consider myself to be a christian (small c on purpose) but all this blather about it being 'Gods will' when something happens sets my teeth on edge.

Is there a guiding force in the universe? I do not know.

[Bwana]

I sense a group hug coming on. ;)

[Buckrub]

Well I said that I was done with this but I guess not. Bucky, I wrote a long reply to you and deleted most of it. Here is what's left.

I believe that trying to have an intelligent conversation online is difficult because of the medium. You can't look a person in the eye when you are speaking to judge their reactions and perhaps explain yourself in a better way so as not to create offense. Perhaps using the word 'irrational' was too flip and I regret that, however I do consider myself to be a reasonable person and have difficulty with the views in the OP.

To me, spirituality is an intensely personal thing, something that should be between an individual and whatever deity or concept they might believe in. I do consider myself to be a christian (small c on purpose) but all this blather about it being 'Gods will' when something happens sets my teeth on edge.

Is there a guiding force in the universe? I do not know.

I don't necessarily disagree with all of that, JB. LOTS I am unsure of, too.

I did cringe at that word.......but I didn't think you were being mean. I just wanted to make sure I showed that the other side has its own burden of irrationality too.

Empirical Proof is not possible in either case. Thus, Faith is all we both have. Where you place that Faith is up to you.

[quercus alba]

Creation vs evolution is usually an exercise of futility. Without a standard both parties agree on the discussion quickly becomes opinion and theory. It's been my observation that the party that "preaches" tolerance is usually the least tolerant. If a man chooses not to believe then I won't waste his time arguing about it nor insult him for it either.

[Thumper]

And Jim's total belief system can be summed up in one sentence.........he believes that "since there is so much confusion among all the Earth's people about religious matters, and they can't agree, and the number of belief systems is so high, then I (Jim) conclude that none of them are right". Seriously, that's your belief, isn't it? The logical conclusion of such a belief is that you only believe things that have 100% (or awfully close to it) concurrence on any subject. That too, is laughable.

We've gone 'round and 'round on this subject so many times I'm dizzy. Bucky, EVERY time this subject is discussed, I say the same thing. You always refer to me as an Atheist and I've called you out on it EVERY SINGLE time. I do not, and have NEVER, considered myself an Atheist. No, you didn't use the "word" today, you just used a bunch of other words to say the same thing.

I consider myself an Agnostic ... because I just DO NOT KNOW! I've said this a bazillion times to you ... and each time I point out the difference between an Agnostic and an Atheist. Your stock answer was always the same ... if I'm not a Christian, I'm an Atheist. I always took offense to that but it never mattered to you. There is a major difference between KNOWING and BELIEVING. You believe and I can appreciate that ... in fact, I admire it. But you cannot accept the fact that I would rather claim that I just do not know, so I will not simply pick a religion and start believing that I'm right and anybody who disagrees with me is wrong. I'm going to cut & paste something I've done many times before. I'd really appreciate it if you'd pay attention to what I'm saying and remember it.

ag·nos·tic
agˈnästik/
noun
1.a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

Now THAT sums up my feelings but here's what YOU consider me and have never waiver'd from your belief:

a·the·ist
ˈāTHēˌist/
noun
1. a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

You're an educated man ... you can't see the difference between the two? When we FIRST got together (on the net) as a group, I never approached the subject of religion. I didn't really know anyone here quite well enough to express my opinions on such a controversial subject, so I would just bite my tongue during certain conversations. In a nutshell, I just wasn't comfortable with the subject. You know what brought me out of that "shell"? I've never mentioned it here OR to the person who brought my true feelings out to the public forum. In fact, it was so many years ago, I seriously doubt he even remembers making the post ... but I remember it like it was yesterday.

One day Len wrote that his little girl was looking at his military dog tags. She asked what "agnostic" meant and he struggled a bit with explaining it to her. He explained here that when he went into the military, he listed "agnostic" in the religion column of his enlistment papers. You don't know, and he didn't either (until now) what a weight he lifted off my shoulders that day. It's odd, as we've been together many different times through the years, and not once have I ever mentioned that to him. I don't really know why. Before that post, I was always in fear of being chastised for expressing my feelings, but that day, with his help, I broke down all those barriers. That was hard to do considering my family was very religious and half my uncles, as well as my grandfather, were preachers!

I just don't know. And guess what? YOU don't know either. NOBODY knows. Anybody can "believe" anything they want and NOBODY on this earth can tell them they are wrong ... OR right. What gripes my butt is when "good Christians" chastise me for not believing exactly as they do. And I'm not pointing the finger at you or anyone else here ... it's something I've experienced all my life.

[Buckrub]

Read above. Where did I call you an atheist?

Why did you go off on that tangent?

I called you a person that won't decide (an agnostic says he WILL decide) unless you get 100% (or close) buy-in on one view. THEN you'll step up and sign on, but not until. THAT is all I said. I did not call you any name.

[Thumper]

Read above. Where did I call you an atheist?

No, YOU read above. I stated that THIS time you did not use the WORD atheist ... you just used other words to say the same thing.

Bucky:
I (Jim) conclude that none of them (religions) are right ...

Which definition does that fit?

[Buckrub]

Agnostic,
i'd say.

Do you believe any of them are right?

[Thumper]

Your reading apprehension is really going downhill these days! ;)

Thumper quote:
I consider myself an Agnostic ... because I just DO NOT KNOW!

[Buckrub]

Jim! I'm lost here. That's what I said! I said that you don't believe ANY of the current religions, because you don't KNOW FOR A FACT which one, if any, is right. That's what I said about you. That's what you've always said.

Geez. Every time I get into a long conversation, that I THINK is just a calm discussion of this and that, on here........I get my tits in a wringer. For reasons I have no clue about.

Not now. I'm done. You believe whatever you want, or nothing, or whatever. Fine. I won't bother you again on this subject. I can't make myself understood. That's my fault. But I can't. So.......done.

[LJ3]

Jimmy hates Jesus!

[johnboy]

See, these conversations never turn out well. I think it is difficult or impossible for people with different points of view on religion to ever understand what the other fella is trying to say. I think that there are very different thought processes at work and communication is impossible. We simply do not understand how the other person can be so obtuse.

Bye the way, I love the message that Jesus gave us but not what man has done with it.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I've converted to Toyotaism.

BKB

[Thumper]

Bucky, you're intelligent. You're educated. Why is it you think you always get your tit in a wringer? What you asked me is, "Do I believe ANY of them are right". You're trying to use a play on words to work me into a trap and you get frustrated when I don't fall for it. What you're looking for is a "yes" or "no" answer. I keep giving you an "I don't know" answer and you're not accepting of that. That's EXACTLY the reason you always refer to me as an atheist. You've told me many times, either I "believe in God" or I'm an atheist. There is no "middle of the road" with you and that's why you always failed to recognize "agnosticism". You want black & white, no gray is allowed.

The point that frustrates me is NOBODY knows ... all one can do is pick one and call himself a "believer". The problem I have with religion is that whenever someone "picks one" ... all others are automatically wrong.

If you want to pin me down to a belief ... I've "looked" at Buddhism for the last 42 years now. It's technically a religion ... but to me, it's really more a way of life than what we consider religion. How many "Holy Wars" have you heard of led by Buddhists? Your God preaches peace, loving and caring ... but you'd be hard-pressed to find a more historically violent religion. You claim to have studied them all and Christianity is the only one that makes sense ... the only one any rationally thinking human being would accept. Did you ever REALLY study Buddhism? I've experienced the culture first-hand and would be really hard-pressed to find a more agreeable religion to sign on to if I had to make a decision. BUT ... the jury is still out for me.

There are a few different Buddhist leanings. Like Christianity, all believe in God ... but we have who knows how many "churches" within the Christian faith? Sure, there are the main churches, but if you really dig deep ... there are probably hundreds ... each a bit different in their beliefs than the others. When it comes to Buddhism, I've been studying mostly Theravāda ... mostly because I've had the most personal exposure to it's teachings and practices. I'll tell you one thing though, no Buddhist monk has EVER tried to shove his beliefs down my throat. I wish I could say that about the Christian churches I've attended. Heck, I even dabbled in the Mormon church years ago and was literally locked in a room and they refused to let me leave until they finished trying to "convert" me. I was scared shitless as I was only 13 years old. Later in life, my closest buddy was Mormon and he was horrified to hear my story. I was older then and even gave some talks at his church ... a TOTALLY different atmosphere than what I'd experienced as a kid.

But I digress, back to Theravāda. This is just a very small slice ... and I'm more comfortable here than most anywhere else. At least Buddhists are "flexible" and have no problem keeping up with the changing times and "adjusting".

Theravāda promotes the concept of Vibhajjavada (Pali), literally "Teaching of Analysis." This doctrine says that insight must come from the aspirant's experience, application of knowledge, and critical reasoning. However, the scriptures of the Theravadin tradition also emphasize heeding the advice of the wise, considering such advice and evaluation of one's own experiences to be the two tests by which practices should be judged. I won't bore you with continuing on with practice and culminating ... just the learning phase gives you a taste.

Theravāda orthodoxy takes the seven stages of purification as its basic outline of the path to be followed.

The Theravāda Path starts with learning, to be followed by practice, culminating in the realization of Nirvana.

Learning
The Three Characteristics


Three marks of existence

Throughout the Pali-canon two characteristics of all conditioned phenomena and one characteristic of all dhammas are being mentioned. The Theravāda tradition has grouped them together. Insight into these three characteristics is the entry to the Buddhist path:

Anicca (impermanence): All conditioned phenomena are subject to change, including physical characteristics, qualities, assumptions, theories, knowledge, etc. Nothing is permanent, because, for something to be permanent, there has to be an unchanging cause behind it. Since all causes are recursively bound together, there can be no ultimate unchanging cause.

Dukkha (suffering): Craving causes suffering, since what is craved is transitory, changing, and perishing. The craving for impermanent things causes disappointment and sorrow. There is a tendency to label practically everything in the world, as either "good," "comfortable" or "satisfying;" or "bad", "uncomfortable," and "unsatisfying." Labeling things in terms of like and dislike creates suffering. If one succeeds in giving up the tendency to label things, and freeing himself from the instincts that drive him towards attaining what he himself labels collectively as "liking," he attains the ultimate freedom. The problem, the cause, the solution and the implementation, all of these are within oneself, not outside.

Anatta (not-self): all dhammas lack a fixed, unchanging 'essence'; there is no permanent, essential Self. A living being is a composite of the five aggregates (khandhas), which is the physical forms (rupa), feelings or sensations (vedana), perception (sanna), mental formations (sankhara), and consciousness (vinnana), none of which can be identified as one's Self. From the moment of conception, all entities (including all living beings) are subject to a process of continuous change. A practitioner should, on the other hand, develop and refine his or her mind to a state so as to see through this phenomenon. Truly understanding this counter-intuitive concept of Buddhism requires direct and personal experience. This is given in vipassana-practice, closely watching the continuous changes in the Five Aggregates.

[Thumper]

I've converted to Toyotaism.

I meant to come back to this but got caught up in talking to myself. ;)

I have to say I got a chuckle out of that one! :D

[Thumper]

Jimmy hates Jesus!

And YOU Mr. Shit-disturber ... in a way, YOU started all of this ... years ago. ;)

[Buckrub]

I promised myself I'd stay away from this. But one thing hits me, Jim:

Why is it you think you always get your tit in a wringer? What you asked me is, "Do I believe ANY of them are right". You're trying to use a play on words to work me into a trap and you get frustrated when I don't fall for it.

To me, that was an honest, simple question. Trap? I had no such intentions, I assure you. What trap? How would that question trap you? You made a statement, and I asked a logical question based on what you said. I made what I THOUGHT was a reasonable summary of what you've said you believe, and said repeatedly for years. At NO point did I call you anything, not an Atheist, nothing. In fact, Jim, I don't honestly remember every calling you an Atheist. If I did, and if that offends you, I'm sorry........my memory is clearly not what it used to be. But I seriously don't remember calling you that. I don't see a ton of difference in what you profess and atheism, to be honest, but I didn't 'label' you as anything. I didn't get frustrated that you won't answer. I made a summary of what you say you believe. Your argument is always "Well, WHICH one of the thousands is correct?" ... and I simply asked if you believed in any of them. From there, you pounced on me and claimed I called you an Atheist (as if that's some terrible label or something). I did not do that, and IMHO that skewed the whole discussion. It was at that point that I threw my hands up and gave up. It seems to me to be you that gets squirmy and upset every time this is brought up. You want to be 100% accepted as valid and right and good for what you believe. When that doesn't happen, it seems you get a bit angry but try to claim it's me that's at fault for that. I don't get that. But it doesn't matter. We can't talk politics, religion, baseball, football, soccer, or economics now. We can say "great turkey" or "Nice deer" or "good fish" and that's about it. Anything else just generates this whole skabob. Reading this thread from top to bottom, I just shake my head.

That's my take on the matter.

If my take on the matter is wrong, then it's wrong. And yes, it always seems to be me that is the recipient of the rancor. I don't know why, I simply try to talk and converse and 'chat' or whatever you want to call it. I see clearly that others say much the same thing, and they get to skate. Fine. I use this place to talk. A conversation.... a Campfire. Dang man.........this is an Internet Chat Site, isn't it? What do y'all want to talk about??? I talk about the things that are important to me. I don't shun important topics because someone might disagree with me. But I don't spew vitriol. Maybe I did at one point, maybe I've eaten all of my 'mad' and crapped out an old man. Beats me.........but nothing I've said here was meant to be mean in any way.

[Thumper]

Well Bucky ... your memory is as short as my pecker. You may not remember, but I remember WELL the many, many times I've "tried" to correct you. I'll bet I've posted the definition of atheist and agnostic 20 times over the years ... just as I did tonight .... to TRY pointing out the difference. Blame it on age or whatever you want ... it's a fact. I have no doubt whatsoever because I was the subject of your labeling. It was ALWAYS frustrating and you basically told me I either "believe" or I don't. Plain old "not knowing" was an answer you would never accept. There IS such a thing as "middle of the road" and that's exactly where I walk. Johnboy is right, there is no way to communicate feelings on this medium ... in some discussions you HAVE to be face-to-face to read body language, etc.

You are an expert at acting like an innocent victim ... trying to win sympathy IMHO. Over the years I've grown to know you so well, I know what you're saying without you actually using the exact words. I don't want to drag anyone else into this, but most recently, I've seen it happen with Captain a dozen times or so. A while back I kept wondering what the friction was between you guys ... then I started seeing it. It's never been mentioned per se ... but sometimes the tension was so thick, you could cut it with a knife. I remember thinking, "Dang Bucky ... are you trying to get under his skin for some reason?" The next thing I'd witness is him unloading on you and you'd revert back to the same old, "What did I do/say?" You'd deny saying the things he'd accuse you of saying and you'd dance around the same old, "I never said those words" and claim to be a victim of "misunderstanding." Yet EVERY time it blew up ... I would have been watching from the sidelines thinking, "Whoa ... THIS isn't going to end well!" ... and it wouldn't.

You are an expert at choosing your words carefully so that in case the reaction escalates ... you can always come back and say, "I didn't say THAT!" Then you start quoting what you "DIDN'T say"! I know your track record ... you wouldn't believe how many times I've made a mental note of it.

You just posted a perfect example above. Please tell me what this means.


At NO point did I call you anything, not an Atheist, nothing. In fact, Jim, I don't honestly remember every calling you an Atheist. If I did, and if that offends you, I'm sorry........my memory is clearly not what it used to be. But I seriously don't remember calling you that.

Ok, I must misunderstand how you REALLY feel, right? Now everyone here can say, "Dang, what's wrong with Thump? He's accusing poor old Bucky of saying things he didn't really say." You're getting the sympathy you want.

BUT ... here's your next sentence: (I call it a disclaimer for what you just finished saying)


I don't see a ton of difference in what you profess and atheism, to be honest, but I didn't 'label' you as anything.

Now, break that down for me. Or maybe I can help you with it. Like I said, you like to "play" with words. I take the above to mean ... "Jim, you say you're an agnostic, not an atheist, but (in MY book) there is no difference."

Ok, in essence, in your own sneaky little way, you just "labeled" me as an atheist. But if I call you out on it, you can come back and say, "I never called you an athiest!" "Show me where I said that!"

[Captain]

Thumper, do you agnostic people still get to talk to God during sex?
For some reason "Oh Buddha" just don't sound right.... ;)

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[Thumper]

Ha ha! Believe it or not Cappy ... I've heard just that before. I agree, it doesn't quite have the same "ring" to it! It's funny, but understandable .. when a Thai learns the language (English), they compare words ... the Thia word equivalent in English is ... ("whatever"). Of course, the correlation they make to God is Buddha. I knew a gal who, when you'd say something "astounding" in normal conversation, she'd many times reply with, "Oh my Buddha!" I don't care how many times I'd hear it ... I'd still crack up.

What'chu doin' up so early? Chasin' turkeys?

[Captain]

Yea, I hobbled my sorry ass in about a mile this morning in the rain. Figured is get in one last hunt before I go to the saw bones tomorrow and see what's going on with my leg...
Y'all had a enlightening discussion yesterday. Sorry I missed it. I could have really stirred the pot! :D

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[Thumper]

We don't need no pot stirrin' ... move along, there's nothing to see here. ;)

Keep us posted on that ol' leg-bone of yours.

[Buckrub]

Wow.

[Captain]

You know the best thing about this thread? Can't none of y'all blame me for any SD work as I was AWOL whilst all this was going on! :D

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[Thumper]

That's ok ... I dragged you into it anyway to make up for your absence. ;)

[Captain]

My BUDDY Thump-a-nator

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