I don't often agree with Fox News

[BarryBobPosthole]

...in particular I don't often agree with their opinion columns. But this one pretty much hits it square on the head in my opinion as far as this deal with children from Central America that have crossed our borders. and the whole immigration 'issue' in general. We lack leadership in both the White House and the Congress and it does nobody any good to just chant the usual BS they hear. but I agree with these preachers.....these are kids and I don't give a shit how illegal they are. We need to treat them like would somebody's kid that doesn't belong to us but came and knocked on our door because somebody was threatening them at their house down the street. Sorry, but I can't see it any differently. If you do see it differently that's fine. You're not a hater or an asshole or even an idiot. Just don't call me one because of the way I think about it either.

BKB

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/07/29/shame-gop-on-border/

Even on Capitol Hill, there is a God.

Last week, the nation’s religious leaders stood up to ask their elected officials to look past politics and see that children — not theoretical abstractions but real, young individuals — are suffering because of inaction by Congress.

The children who have come north, fleeing violence in Central America, “are not ‘issues.’ These are … children made in the image of God and we ought to respond to them with compassion, not fear,” Russell Moore, a leader of the conservative Southern Baptist Convention told The New York Times.

The GOP seems content to let it happen and stoke the crisis so long as they can blame Obama.

The pope, the President of Catholic Charities U.S.A., the leaders of the evangelical charity World Vision and others want to stop Congress from treating children as political footballs.

They want Congress to pass a funding bill before the August recess that allows for proper handling of children coming to the United States under existing law for minors fleeing violence, sexual abuse and exploitation.

A group of top evangelicals — key supporters of the GOP for decades — wrote to ask Congress last week to protect the children and offer them full consideration in court as refugees.

But the GOP’s obstructionism of anything the Obama White House proposes now stands in the way of faith-based compassion for these children.

“If Republicans move forward on this, we’re now jumping in right in the middle of President Obama’s nightmare and making it ours,” said Rep. John Fleming (R-La.).

“If it doesn’t have the 2008 repeal in it, I don’t support it — we’ve got to address the cause of the problem,” Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said last week, referring to Bush-era legislation that gives children from certain countries who enter the United States illegally the right to a hearing before a judge.

McCain’s analysis leapt over the fact that these children did not start arriving in large numbers until late last year. They did so in response to deadly threats in their home countries, not because of any law.

The GOP is guilty of at least three counts of intellectual and moral dishonesty in this debate.

First is the claim that waves of illegal immigrants are sweeping across the southern border in unprecedented numbers. The fact is that net migration from Mexico, the biggest source of migrants, fell to zero in 2012. And, if you include El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua, it is estimated by Frank Bean of the Center for Research on Immigration, Population and Public Policy at UC Irvine, the net is less than 100,000 people per year.

The second dishonest claim from the GOP is that a large share of the nation’s 12 million illegal immigrants ran, swam or were brought across the border by smugglers, “coyotes” or human traffickers.

Wrong again. The plurality — at least 40 percent — of illegal immigrants now in the United States came legally on boats and planes. They simply overstayed their visas. Yet Republicans in the House refuse to move on comprehensive immigration reform and crack down on the heart of the problem.

Third, and most frequently, Republicans contend they don’t trust President Obama. They say that until Democrats get serious about border security they will refuse to pass immigration reform or deal with the current crisis of children seeking asylum.

But Obama’s funding request includes money for increased security, providing additional money for the Border Patrol and even for drones. The bipartisan Senate immigration reform bill also included huge amounts of money for further security. And Obama has deported so many people he is sometimes attacked from the left as the “Deporter in Chief.”

The most outrageously false claim is that Obama’s 2012 executive order is the real problem. That order halted the deportation of some children brought to the United States illegally as minors.

The fact is that Obama’s executive order applied only to young people who were already in the country. The young people now asking for help are not eligible under his program.

It is a marvel of political dishonesty to point at Obama and blame him for how human traffickers misrepresent U.S. immigration policy to desperate parents in Central America.

The facts of the child migrant crisis lead to a harsh conclusion. Republicans are deaf to calls for mercy for children because they are playing for political gain. They see the chance to use the fear of “invading” immigrants to spur their voters to turn out in the midterm elections.

Late last week, Republicans offered a plan with less than half of the $3.7 billion the White House wants to deal with the crisis. Senate Democrats have a proposal that cuts Obama’s request by about a quarter. But the Democrats refuse GOP demands to change the 2008 law.

Meanwhile, federal customs and immigration agencies will be out of money by September without supplemental funds from Congress.

The GOP seems content to let it happen and stoke the crisis so long as they can blame Obama.

Can people of faith shame these politicians?

[Thumper]

Dang little rug-rats! ;)

Seriously, I think it's one hell of a mess any way you look at it. A giant damned if you do, damned if you don't type deal.

[BarryBobPosthole]

And that's my point 100%. Because there is no political advantage to it, neither side is going to budge at the expense of young people's lives. That one effed up set of values if'n you ask me (and nobody did I realize)

BKB

[Penguin]

I agree with you Barry. And this coming from a man who would stop ALL immigration, legal or otherwise, if it were in my power to do so.

Regardless of what you think about the issue the fact is that it is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to acquire the facts on whether these kids are true refugees or not. To my mind that isn't the question we should be asking. The fact is that parents of these children were so desperate as to send their children north. The question we ought to be asking is how would a moral and ethical nation respond to such desperation as it pertains to children. Exactly how are you going to track down the places these kids are supposed to be from, verify their identities, and safely return them? The logistics of this boggle my mind.

I have no patience for an immigration policy that is being used for a battering ram against both US workers and/or a certain political party that is composed mostly of white folks that doesn't lend itself to the affections of poor immigrants. Sadly that is exactly what immigration policy has been and continues to be. I'd end it all if I could.

But when it comes to children you have to set that aside if you ask me.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

And this is happening in our hemisphere. We have a vested interest in finding the root cause and helping to fix it. I'm much rather do that than send missiles to the Ukraine.

BKB

[Penguin]

Amen to that.

Will

[LJ3]

I honestly don't know much about the detail but agree with treating these kids as children, with dignity, respect and keeping them safe.

The skeptic in me thinks this may be similar to the infamous anchor baby technique, though. Are parents flinging these kids in to the country so secure a place for themselves in some way? If so, we should shoot those parents and make the kids US citizens.

[Thumper]

All the thugs of the world have to do is claim some of those kids and we'll have another "Mariel boatlift" on our hands. How much can we spend before we're broke? No wait! I forgot ... we're ALREADY broke! Take 'em all in ... take care of 'em ... just raise our taxes if we "run out" of money ... or simply print more!

[Penguin]

I honestly don't know much about the detail but agree with treating these kids as children, with dignity, respect and keeping them safe.

The skeptic in me thinks this may be similar to the infamous anchor baby technique, though. Are parents flinging these kids in to the country so secure a place for themselves in some way? If so, we should shoot those parents and make the kids US citizens.

Lol, I could go along with that Len.

I don't know whether this is the case for none of them, a few of them, or even a bunch of them. I just know that in the few instances I've seen the parents of children speaking they weren't planning on coming north. Several of them had sent sons north because they were getting recruited into gangs that they didn't want to join and were facing one of those offers that "you can't refuse" if you know what I mean. I personally don't have a large enough sample to know if this is symbolic of the problem or outliers.

Fact is that some of these central American nations are bordering on chaos. The US appetite for illegal drugs has made the drug industry among the largest and powerful forces in the region. Hell, even Mexico would have been considered a narco state 50 years ago. Some of these places might be considered failed states before too long.

Will

[Buckrub]

I don't understand y'all's logic.

[quercus alba]

nobody likes to see kids suffer but the hard truth of the matter is, if everybody in this country gave every nickel they had to help the rest of the world, the problem would still exist and we'd be begging Mexico to help feed our children. At some point you have to draw the line. Other countries have to be accountable for their own problems. There's a lot of truth in "give a man a fish".

I for one am glad that I'm not in charge of making the decision but at some point people and countries are going to have to learn to stand on their own two feet. Every time I see something like this, I see scenes from Mad Max.

[Captain]

I agree with Fox News about all the time.
In fact I let them do most my thinking for me. :D

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[DeputyDog]

Through a co-worker, I have access to a newsletter from the DEA that they put out regarding the narco-traffickers in Mexico and on into Guatemala, Honduras, and the rest of Central America. If I lived there, I'd send my kids out of there as fast as I could too. They are killing people by the dozens every week in every state in Mexico. The government has lost complete control and the citizens are arming themselves and forming their own vigilante groups to protect their towns. It is so out of control that the Mad Max reference is closer to the truth than you'd believe, only without the post-apocalyptic setting.

[LJ3]

Wow Deppity. That sheds a new light on it for me. I can relate to the parents choosing to try and save their kids in that way. Doesn't it make sense to try and get your whole family out of there? There's certainly no easy answer for the situation.

Not to interweave different issues but when I think of this issue and the Israeli/Hamas conflict the world is quick to say "the KIDS!, these are kids, people. It should be a different set of rules!" Which, I completely agree with. But... and it's a big but, in both instances, who are the adults responsible for the safety of the kids and who are the adults harming the kids? THOSE, should be the people the world should be holding accountable for their safety.

[Thumper]

Ok, it's time for me to do my job around this joint and shit in your Wheaties here. Not all of these little cuties arrive with a sugar coating. Some have grown up "in the streets". The big question is, what kind of control ... or "weeding out" process do we have? During Mariel, we ended up with a bunch of street urchins who would make professional pick-pockets look like amateurs. As they grew older, they "matured" and started carrying guns. How many "little kiddies" come across from south of the border and end up as gang-bangers? I remember GI's always had a soft spot for kids in Vietnam ... poor little things caught up in all that nasty war and crap .... we'd smile, hand 'em a piece of candy, then they'd smile back, pull the pin on a hand grenade, stuff it in your pocket and run like hell! Is it really OUR job to raise these kids? Why is it we always think we have to take care of the world when we can't even take care of our own?

There ... that's the curmudgeon's view of this mess. :stirthepot

Oh yeah ... almost forgot ... have a nice day. :biggrin

[BarryBobPosthole]

Thumper, I have no idea what these 'kids' are made up of. I do know there's been more bullshit spewed on this issue than just about any I can remember. We've got one side making it seem like they're all little kids with their raggedy ann dolls and the other side making it sound like they are disease ridden ebola carrying muslim teenage pickpocket drug cartel assassins. It seems that any time someone wants to make a point in this mess they either appeal to people's soft spots for kids or they prey on our worse fears. In other words, there's a lot of motherfuckers out there in this world and I don't know if amongst these kids how many of 'em are and how many of 'em ain't. I suppose that's what they had in mind when they passed the law in 2008 that said they need to see a federal judge who'll make a decision on whether they're in reality 'refugees' or not before we deport their asses back to their home country. One little minor detail is those geniuses that passed that law forgot to include funding for all of the judges we'd need and the holding facilities we'd so we could hold them while they're waiting to see them.

BKB

[Thumper]

Between all our "wars" ... foreign aid ... and taking care of everyone who sticks their hand out here AND abroad ... I really don't know how our economy can stay afloat. Where is the deficit standing now? Who's gonna bail US out?

[BarryBobPosthole]

Maybe you oughta try finding out the facts and then you might actually feel a little better about things. The federal deficit has been shrinking. Big time. It was $1.4 Trillion dollars in 2009. It has decreased now to a project $492 billion for 2014 and recent figures indicate it might be even better than that. To be fair, 2009 was an aberration. the Bush 2008 budget had about a $458 billion deficit. It went so high in 2009 of course because of all the bailout shit from the banking collapse.

that doesn't mean we don't have a shitload of a long way to go. When all of us baby boomers finally all get retired and on social security and medicare its going to be awful hard to figure out how to pay for it.

But in the meantime, the crap you hear from the pols ain't necessarily true crap. We're in better shape than we were fiscally when Obama came into the White House. that's a bitter pill but it's the truth. But then again, that's kind of like being first in a fat man's race if you ask me. Nothing much has been done to 'fix' anything and that's probably the main reason its dropped.

BKB

[Buckrub]

The "logic" on immigrant mexican kids is ............. um.....'flawed'........

On the debt, I'll buy that things are rosy when they STOP raising the debt ceiling...........

here's some actual info, and from a liberal website at that:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william-b-bradshaw/the-national-debt_b_4837585.html

[BarryBobPosthole]

Well, Thumper didn't ask about the national debt, he asked about where the deficit is right now. Two different things. I wholeheartedly agree that we need to have budget surpluses and not deficits, before we can begin to pay down the national debt. Kind of like the surplus Bush and the Congress inherited in 2000. Then along came a huge tax cut and two wars and a little banking crisis and here we are.

Its a lot more complicated than blaming Bush or Obama or republicans or democrats. One of these days we might figure that out and come up with a plan.

BKB

[BarryBobPosthole]

The "logic" on immigrant mexican kids is ............. um.....'flawed'......

and just FYI, these ain't 'immigrant mexican kids', at least the vast majority ain't. That's probably the flaw in the logic you see.

BKB

[Thumper]

Well duh. My bad. I didn't even think about it that way. In my mind the deficit and National debt were one and the same ... UNTIL I really thought about it. You're right. My semantics suck.

Put it this way ... we can't afford this crap.

[Penguin]

Jim: I agree that we do spend a lot of money on unnecessary and even frivolous things. But I think that makes the decision making a lot easier in this case. Spending money to find out who the real refugees are and making them welcome and able to grow up healthy would seem to trump a WHOLE lot of junk spending.

As to the balanced budget debate.... well a good start to a sound economic policy on budgeting would be publicly denouncing faith based economics and those who preach and practice it. That would include about 90% of economists and 95% of politicians and 100% of so called "think tanks". In the end the change to a sound economic policy and a sound economy is very simple. And very painful assuming we unwind the bullshit suffocating ours.

Renounce all of our free trade pacts, they are nothing but patent and financial protection for monopolies and speculators.
Renounce the use of the dollar as reserve currency, this is nothing but an excuse/reason to offshore manufacturing.
Introduce a flat income tax, 20% ought to do it. Include all capital gains, asset appreciation, carried interest and other loophole in income.
Make national elections publicly financed and outlaw any private contributions. Corporations ain't people and money ain't speech. Pass a constitutional amendment to make this happen.

There you have it. Problem solved. And welcome to your new Greatest Depression. Fixing this mess is impossible without doling out tremendous amounts of pain. Anyone who tells you differently is lying or ignorant or both. And it means giving up the American empire. Sorry.

Truth is we ain't gonna do this. Or anything resembling it. It's too late. This problem won't be fixed because the people who own this country don't want it fixed. It's just that simple.

All that taken into account though is no reason why we should not be approaching this particular issue from a moral and ethical POV.

At least IMvHO.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

Man, I agree with so much of that Chilly Willy that you can't even imagine. But there's so much more on the 'social' side of things that need fixing that I think doing one without addressing the other is an empty proposition. Mind you, I'm not one of the believers in the 'America is going to hell in a handbasket' philosophy. Granted we have deep, deep waters to navigate and obstacles to overcome but America is still the greatest force economically, politically, and (in my mind) morally in the world. Or maybe ethically is a better word for morally, at least more precise.

I'm turning 60 next month and this is a big milestone for me. I'll use the same worn out thing you hear all the time and say that I actually never expected to make it to this age. Given how I've spent my personal health capital over the course of my life a lot of folks would say I was of the 'live fast, love hard, die young' philosophy. At least I did until I turned 50, and since then I've spend a lot of my energy trying to atone for it and make myself healthier. Well, to a point anyway. I don't think people fundamentally ever change and I've never met a good time I didn't like. So it goes I reckon.

Anyway, turning 60 has made for some interesting conversations with friends and relatives and work associates about the whole aging thing and those conversations have led me to one inescapable conclusion. The whole goddamned world is on disability of some sort. Government paid disability I mean. Certainly the majority of people I've discussed retirement with are to some degree disables and receive a government check for that disablement. Given that most of my friends and family are of the conservative ilk, these are the same people that will cuss a blue streak at people who get money and don't work as being the 'rot' in our society. I don't say this to call them hypocrites because most of them are fine upstanding people. I only say it to point out (and quite frankly point it out) that a good many really awesome Americans I know think that we are all deserving of every thin dime we can weasel out of Uncle Sam as long as you are a: retired or b: a veteran. I have a first cousin who is 100% disabled and draws a huge Social Security check for it. He's an active hunter, fisherman, and outdoorsman and I'd have a difficult time keeping up with him on just about any physical activity. In other words, THERE AIN'T NOTHING WRONG WITH HIM. But he's retired and because he paid in for all those years, he feels like it's just fine and dandy to say he's disabled when in all reality, he isn't. apparently a doctor has said so. somehow this has become a part of acceptable behavior in our culture because he ain't the only one.
People in this country are also of the opinion that if their vocation or profession serves the public in some way that they are due some sort of extra security. Truckers, airline pilots, farmers, telecommunicators, IT people (ESPECIALLY IT PEOPLE), energy company employees, you name it, all do critical things that none of us could live without. Which ones of those do we want to spend a shitload of our tax dollars protecting so that we also protect their vital services? Who decided which was most most important to protect? Did we vote on it? the bottom line is there really aren't any free markets anywhere in America. And the belief in the myth that our economy and marketplace is a free market capitalist one is one of the things holding us back from reforming the stuff that is totally upside down. Like food prices, for one. Gas prices for another. INSURANCE prices for another. None of them free market. The only free market thing I can think of is the guy I buy my weed from. If weed is scarce its more expensive. Go figure.

those are just a couple of fundamental things that I think are root causes of a lot of our economic woes. the deficit and the national debt aren't the problem. they are the symptoms of the problem. the real problems go a lot deeper.

BKB

[Penguin]

I know exactly what you mean Barry.

The biggest free market loving, Republican voting, Limbaugh loving, liberal hating, commie hunter in my hometown was just like that. Never worked a day in his entire worthless freeloading life. And now, after his demise, his son has taken up the mantle and expounds his Adam Smith loving opinions to any and all who will listen at the local barbershop. Where he sits on his worthless ass all day, every day while the rest of the world is out making a living. How in the hell this piece of work got on to government sponsored disability is beyond. He ~is~ unemployable. But that is because he is stupid, worthless, and lazy not because of any true disability.

I can still remember the elder worthless POS indicting my father for working as a union member one saturday morning decades ago. After listening to his idiotic union = communist bullshit for about 5 minutes my dad looked him straight in the eye and said "I work for a living. Have for years. I haven't drew a government check since I left the Marine Corps. When was the last time you ever got paid for work you did?"

The truth hurts. After that he hated my father till the day he died.

Truth be told 90% of the Limbaugh spouting jackasses I know personally are freeloaders. Even an uncle of mine. Hell of a nice guy. Spent his whole life belittling two of his brothers (my father and a different uncle) who worked union. Said it was anti-American. All of that John Wayne, star spangled banner stuff. Now, after a heart attack he sits around bitching about freeloaders and waiting for the next check to come in. Wasn't for an old high school flame he'd be homeless probably. Now because he didn't take care of things properly the rest of us get to pay for his rugged individualism views as a young and productive man.

It clouds my vision when I'm on the internet. I can't shake the feeling that most of the people who are most virulently conservative might be like the ones I know back home. In that Clive Bundy debacle I kept thinking "Where in the hell are all of those people from? Don't they have jobs? "

I'll probably never know. But I know what I suspect.

Will

[Chicken Dinner]

Barry, your post reminds of me the old joke where Jesus shows up at some diner and commences to lay hands on people and heal them. He works his way down the counter and the last old boy in line jumps up and shouts, "Don't touch me! I'm on disability..."

[Buckrub]

90%.....wow. Big number.

[Thumper]

Ha ha! I think somebody pushed Willy's hot-button! ;)

[Penguin]

90% but with an *... the only reason this isn't higher is that I am trying to compensate for possible survivor bias. Most of the people I know personally just plain don't talk in sound bites from talk radio. And even the conservative folks I know seem to be more subdued and a bit introspective. That seems to be the purview of the internet. So maybe there are folks I know who feel that way but just don't feel obligated to tell me about it in real life. On the internet there seems to be no such compulsion but they aren't included since I cannot know how they live.

Will

[Buckrub]

I, and almost all my real life friends, must have dreamed all those 45-55 years that we worked. Man. I wish I had known sooner, I'd have stopped all those 80 hour weeks.

[Captain]

90%.....wow. Big number. With on on that Bucky. I think that number is horse shit. At least in MY area of the world.
Could be spot on for him and his area, but around here the opposite would be true.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Penguin]

A) I don't personally know you or your friends Bucky so you guys don't count.

B) I'm not talking about normal sane conservatives, although they are getting more rare they still do exist. I am talking about people who just piss and moan about loafers and this and that ethnic group being "takers". Spend most of any conversation relaying Rush or Sean's latest missives so I can know just how bad these loafers are hurting us Wurkin Merkins. In real life I don't know a whole hell of a lot of these guys. But almost to a man the ones I do know are completely worthless and 90% of them would qualify as parasites under an accurate use of the term.

Will

[BarryBobPosthole]

Barry, your post reminds of me the old joke where Jesus shows up at some diner and commences to lay hands on people and heal them. He works his way down the counter and the last old boy in line jumps up and shouts, "Don't touch me! I'm on disability..."

LOL Purty much!

BKB

[Buckrub]

Yeah, we do count.

[Thumper]

Don't look now Buckster, but it looks like you just might be on the verge of getting sucked into a political discussion! :biggrin

[Niner]

Ummmm, How 'bout them Dawgs.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Here's a couple of numbers to chew on. If course at full retirement age (65) full SSI kicks in so its no longer considered 'disability'. But fully 20% of all of those receiving social security benefits are receiving 'disability'. That's 11 million people. 45% of veterans of Iran and Afghanistan receive disability benefits from the VA. This is more than double than for any previous war. The previous rate was at about 20%. that's a helluva lot of people who are on 'disability'.

BKB

[Thumper]

Huh? I'm not sure how you equate SSI with disability. You can LEGALLY draw at 62 years of age, but the payout is lower. It's a sliding scale ... at 62 I receive 75% of what I'd get if I waited until 66 when I'd get 100%. Even then, that's a percentage of what I put into the system ... it's not a fixed rate. Put in more, withdraw more ... contribute less, draw less. I have a close buddy who's never made a lot of money, although he's worked all his life. He retired a few months ago and started drawing SSI ... it's just over $800/month. Not many people could live on that, but he lives like a mountain man and grows his own veggies, raises his own chickens/hogs, etc. His place is paid for, he uses no a/c and lives a minimalist lifestyle, so it works for him.

What I'd like to know is, how the heck do you figure choosing to retire at 62 and taking a cut in payments (from money I deposited all my working life), instead of waiting for the 100% payout 48 months later is collecting "disability"? WTF???

As for the 45% of vets ... that number seems mighty high, but I assume you researched it, so I'll take your word for it. BUT ... the way you have it worded, it "sounds" like you're implying they're on 100% disability. Many of those could be on 10% or 20%, etc. As usual, statistics can read any way you want them to. If you lose half your foot after stepping on an IED and get a 10% disability payout, is that not worth $130.94?

[Buckrub]

No, I'm not going to be drawn in.

But this is getting a bit idiotic. This whole thread is.............quite interesting........but pretty much......um....

Never mind. Here's some data.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/dibStat.html

And please, try to learn what the terms mean when using them.

I'm done.

well, ONE other thing that none of you apparently know.....(among many things)....... .9 percent of your premiums go to pay for Disability Insurance. You are BUYING a federal disability policy. When Soc Sec started, that wasn't part of it. Congress keeps adding things, like SSI (SUPPLEMENTAL Security Income, or 'welfare' ---currently around $800/month fixed I think--- for those who NEVER paid in a dime to Soc Sec), or children's benefits, or medicare or whatever. BUT, the premium is also no longer 1 %!!!! So this Disability that everyone hates has been paid for in disability insurance premiums for many years, for most folks. And it's not very easy to get.

Please, try and learn something about Social Security before trying to discuss its details.

[Thumper]

I'm curious. If I paid auto insurance all of my adult life and my truck was stolen from my driveway ... would I be considered a free-loading bum if I filed an insurance claim? Or should I just go buy another one and not mention it? Just wonderin' .... :confused:

[BarryBobPosthole]

Well, you totally missed the point, both of you. I was talking about the number of people I know who are NOT disabled but collect disability from social security. Bad reading comprehension is not a disability, but it does kind of put you at a disadvantage. So I don't care if you paid in or not, if you filed your claim fraudulently, its still fraud.
And people don't think there's a thing wrong with it. There's even professionals who will help you game the system for a fee.

BKB

[Captain]

Could you please name one? I hear about them but no one ever seems to be able to point me to one.... I sorta of see that statement as one of those "that's what they say" statements. No one ever can identify who "they" is.....

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Thumper]

Fraudulent claims are illegal and who doesn't think there's anything wrong with it? Evidently you are one of those people ...

P-hole quotes:


I was talking about the number of people I know who are NOT disabled but collect disability from social security.


I have a first cousin who is 100% disabled and draws a huge Social Security check for it. He's an active hunter, fisherman, and outdoorsman and I'd have a difficult time keeping up with him on just about any physical activity. In other words, THERE AIN'T NOTHING WRONG WITH HIM. But he's retired and because he paid in for all those years, he feels like it's just fine and dandy to say he's disabled when in all reality, he isn't. apparently a doctor has said so. somehow this has become a part of acceptable behavior in our culture because he ain't the only one.

So ... shouldn't you be doing a service to your country by reporting these "scammers"? Can you get cell phone videos of your cousin scurrying up a tree with a climber? That would be great evidence. If you witnessed a bank robbery, would you just turn away and keep on walking? Aren't you just as guilty as these "people you know"?

[BarryBobPosthole]

Bite me. You ain't as good as kicking the turds as Larke. you more like mash them.

There's buttloads of them. You know of them too.

BKB

[Arty]

Well, you totally missed the point, both of you. I was talking about the number of people I know who are NOT disabled but collect disability from social security. Bad reading comprehension is not a disability, but it does kind of put you at a disadvantage. So I don't care if you paid in or not, if you filed your claim fraudulently, its still fraud.
And people don't think there's a thing wrong with it. There's even professionals who will help you game the system for a fee.

BKB



I'm in agreement with The above. I know one girl I went to High school with. She decided she couldn't sleep at night, and therefore couldn't work. Took a year and a half, but she is now on full disability.
A month after she started receiving her check.... She advertised on Craigslist that she'd help people fill out disability paperwork for $200. She claimed in her ad that she knew "exactly what the paperwork needs to say to be approved" (I'm not saying she's one of the professionals that posty is talking about, just saying she did in fact advertise that.

She's no more disabled than I am. She's just a lazy tramp that lays in the house eating cake all day.


A feller I met down cappys way was gettin a free ride on the govt tit as well.... Nice guy, but he didn't seem 100% disabled to me.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Here's a link to an article that has the data and the numbers on it.

http://www.nber.org/bah/fall06/w12436.html


BKB

[Thumper]

She decided she couldn't sleep at night, and therefore couldn't work.

So, why can't she work the night shift Arty? ;)

Ummm, I notice you didn't answer ANY of my questions Posty. ;)

[Captain]

I can't sleep either, I'm headed to catch Stripers all day... :D

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Thumper]

I can't sleep either, I'm headed to catch Stripers all day... :D

You mean FISH for Stripers ... CATCHING Stripers is a whole 'nuther ballgame. ;)

[Captain]

You mean FISH for Stripers ... CATCHING Stripers is a whole 'nuther ballgame. ;)

No, I said what I meant.. You catch when you go with me.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Thumper]

No, I said what I meant.. You catch when you go with me.

Of course I'd catch 'em ... I'm a terror on the water with my Mitchell 300 and K-mart rod ... now YOU "catching" is another story and ain't really a given. ;)

[Captain]

If that is one of those real old Mitchell 300 that has the rear drag, you need to sell it to me. It needs to be in the hands of someone professional. ;)

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[BarryBobPosthole]

Fighting those big stripers is addicting isn't it Captain? I've never caught a really big one but the middling ones I've had a chance to catch will sure enough fight you to the very end.

BKB

[Niner]

Typical GH thread. From the "poor little refugee chillluns"...to the lazy good fer nuthin' bums sucking up all the disability monies...to fishing. I FORCED myself to read through these missives. I'll just not comment on this stuff except to say I hope y'all catch a mess of them stripers, Cap'n.

[Thumper]

Sadly, I sold my TWO old Mitchells when I moved here from California. That was over 25 years ago. One was a 300 and I think the other was a 314 if I remember correctly. I'm pretty sure I bought the 300 in the early to mid-60's (?). Don't remember when I bought the other one but I sold 'em both in '89 before I knew what I had. :(

I have a couple now .. the 300 and I think the other is the 308. They're just the new junk, but heck, all I need is a stick, a piece of string and an old safety pin to out-fish youse dufes! ;)

[Buckrub]

Good luck on the stripers. But this thread has the most disingenuous, incorrect, falsely misleading, pile of claptrap on two separate subjects I have read here in a long time. I'm not going to say anything else, because I am ridiculed for every opinion I give here, even in threads I have no part in..........I'll give my opinion, but I won't get into a long discussion on it here. Email me if you want more. But this thread has severely reduced my opinion of the credibility of some folks.

[Thumper]

Sheesh Bucky. Cry me a river, I'll send you a towel for those tears if'n ya' want. Sounds to me you're "ridiculing" whomever has posted on this tread, so what's the diff?


this thread has the most disingenuous, incorrect, falsely misleading, pile of claptrap on two separate subjects I have read here in a long time .... this thread has severely reduced my opinion of the credibility of some folks

Say what you want, people will either agree or disagree. Nothing's changed. Gosh ... talk about a Debbie Downer.

Didn't you write this little blurb that's been on our homepage since we started this joint?


We are a tight knit group and love to pick on one another just like family. Please feel free to jump in with a question, comment or whatever.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Disagreeing with someone's point of view and acting all butt hurt are two entirely different things. If you disagree, then at least come out and say what it is. Instead, its this sniping.

BKB

[Thumper]

Awww crap! Now I have to reverse the stand I was taking in this thread and actually agree with Posthole. Dang! That hurts! ;)

[Penguin]

Typical GH thread. From the "poor little refugee chillluns"...to the lazy good fer nuthin' bums sucking up all the disability monies...to fishing. I FORCED myself to read through these missives. I'll just not comment on this stuff except to say I hope y'all catch a mess of them stripers, Cap'n.

Yeah I like to see a few pics of some big stripers myself.

I was going to accept your hint to switch topics to college football earlier... but then I remembered that college football is an even more volatile subject than politics. Besides I ain't sure what kind of teams Wisconsin or West Virginia are going to field this season. Walk softly and all of that you know. :)

I guess everyone can draw their own conclusions. I knew when I posted what I did that it might rub some the wrong way. But it was anything but disingenuous. When Barry mentioned some similar experiences to mine I just chipped in with what I've seen. And again, I was not talking about rational, sane conservatives. I'm talking about the rabid, unthinking, wingnuts that I've known. Most of them that I know personally are bums who try to pin their own shortcomings on others.

Will

[Buckrub]

Jim, you can bite me. Hard.

Posty, I ain't acting hurt. Talk about reading comprehension! I simply stated a fact. I can show you two current threads where I'm being put down (not that it hurts me!! But it's true!) and I didn't even contribute to them. It's for my previous opinions.

I'm a bit angry over some of the comments, but I ain't hurt one bit. Y'all can all bite me. This is just one more bit of evidence of what I say being taken differently. I don't know why y'all do it. Y'all have to answer that, not me. Did I say you could all bite me?

OK, a summary then.........

On the mexican child illegal immigration issue:
1) Yes, that's what this is. You can't say "that's not what this is" and hope someone believes you.
2) The entire thread on this subject, but all posters, was typical Liberal 'binary arguments'. The implicit argument was (and any rational person would conclude same) "These are children. Our government should treat them like they were our own children. It's not their fault". In other words, this is a problem, and therefore the government should intervene on these poor urchins and let them stay, give them money, house them, heck if I know.....but this is claptrap. Typical claptrap. The problem is NOT binary!! Yes they are children. NO they shouldn't be mistreated. However, the government should NOT be the answer to their troubles. There are other ways to help humans than letting the government do it. Aggh. Government is a poor solution to any problem, and for sure this one.
3) How did these children get here? Thousands??? Marching in single file??? Not turned away at any point??? Allowed to cross our border??? Where??? Is no one manning the border? Is it so easy to cross that mere children can march across single file, hours on end?? This problem shouldn't exist to begin with!!!! Good grief.
4) "If we don't let them in, they'll just be forced to join gangs and be criminals". In other words, another binary argument..........we have to let them in for humanitarian reasons. Pure claptrap. IF you are truly a humanitarian, you need to go to the Congo and get planeloads and boatloads of folks out of there, because they are being treated much worse than any Mexican child. In other words, if you truly want to be a humanitarian, then let's go get all the downtrodden, mistreated humanity on earth and bring them here? No??? Why not??? Could the reason be "We have limited resources", or maybe "We have laws?" Don't tell me how bad it'll be if we don't let them in. The world is a hard place, but no reason to make our world hard and add us to the list!!

Playing on emotions to make a political point is what is disingenuous. And making any argument that makes the government the sole solution is as well.

It was the SS disability thing that truly torqued me. I'm not against stopping fraud, by any means. But the statements that 90% of all freeloaders are conservatives........and further, not even labeling them as conservatives, but "Limbaugh loving jackasses", infuriated me. I don't like Rush Limbaugh and NEVER listen to him. But he's right most of the time, he's just a jackass. Not his listeners, HIM! He's a jackass not for the message, but the delivery. He's like many preachers I've known over the years........he's right, but his method won't convert anyone.

In my world, and I suspect throughout this country.......almost every single freeloader is a believer in the traditional liberal philosophy. None I know of are conservatives, although I'm sure there is a rare one or two running loose. In my world, none of the conservatives are freeloaders!! I'm sure there is one or two of them running loose, too. But not in my world. And to read that my world is immaterial, and that it really is 90%.......is more than disingenuous. It's pure claptrap. And it infuriates me to read crap like that. The underlying belief is simple........"Conservatives are mostly hypocrites, and only Liberals are honest".

Then that philosophy was embellished further by implying that most Social Security Disability (SSD) recipients are cheats. Or that, because someone knows one, that many are that way. Boatloads of 'em!!! No proof, just disingenuous claptrap. I suppose Jim is not entitled to SS Disability?? I suppose my wife is not??? How insightful of the writer of that to insinuate such things!! I wish I had that degree of insight.

And yes, my opinion of the credibility of such folks decreased. Not my 'love' for 'em, and not my respect for 'em. But seriously, if they truly believe that kind of stuff, then am going to have to temper my previously high opinion of what they write in the future.

Is that sufficient?

[Thumper]

Oh, well to get back on subject and offer Willy a bit of trash-talk ... I think unions suck great big hairy donkey dicks. But, of course, that's JMHO. ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

Well, I feel like I need to restate my whole point because its kind of morphed into talking about the exceptions and not the rule. what I am saying is that, as a rule, we've come to expect (make that feel ENTITLED) that our government will:

a: keep prices from fluctuating too much on our major expenditures by manipulating markets. Like gas, food, insurance, electricity, you name it. And when they do fluctuate out of the norm we consider it a failure of government to do its job not as a failure of some part of the free market. A BIG portion of our income taxes go towards this. As a result we've made the providers of those things pretty much immune to failure by subsidizing them and ensuring their profits. when is the last time you've heard of a major supplier of any of those things go out of business? It doesn't happen. Those are entitlement as much as any welfare queen with a cell phone. If you want an example of disingenuous, look at anyone who screams about redistribution of wealth to the poor from the rich and at the same time fights like hell to protect these institutions. And yes they have become institutions. Its why our markets are upside down from a logic standpoint. Like 99 cents a pound tomatoes in January. Ain't logical.
b: If our Social Security system collapses, and I don't think it will just personally speaking, it will be due in large part to our increasing belief that because we paid into it, we deserve to get anything we can out of it even if it involves cheating a little bit or a lot. Its a huge perversion of what purpose for setting it up in the first place. Take Medicare as a prime example. It was meant to provide medical insurance for elderly people WHO COULDN'T AFFORD IT. Not for people to automatically file for it when they reached a certain age. It was a safety net. Now it is the insurance plan du jour for any retiring senior. and they'll all say the same thing: I paid for it, I'm taking it. Medicare needs a needs test. and these people will fight like hell to get medicare and scream about how sorry Obamacare is at the same time.

Anyway, that was my main point. If that's disingenuous, then climb on a tall stool a bite my rusty red butt.

BKB

[Thumper]

Well dang Bucky! Congrats! And just so you know ... I agree wholeheartedly with 99.9% of what you just said. Well, maybe 100%, but I'm SURE there's SOMETHING in there that may be a bit gray to me. Ummm, but one thing ... do I still have to bite you? :(

[Buckrub]

Jim, yes.

Posty, if you want logic to be the basis for life, move to Vulcan. And no that wasn't your main point. Your MAIN point was about mexican kids.

I got to go work. I have a massive online garage sale coming up Aug 10-29.......half my carport is full of stuff. I have to go the attic and get the rest of it, and then get the trailer ready to go camping next week. I got to get away from the stress of being me...............for a while.

[Thumper]

Posty ... to cut to the chase .... I feel that if I'm FORCED to "purchase a product" and have NO choice in the matter ... I'm gonna USE that f'ing product. I never contributed to SS or Medicare voluntarily ... in fact, the 20+ years I owned a business, I was "forced" to pay DOUBLE. Excuse me if I feel "entitled". If'n it ain't meant to be "used" ... just call it "income tax" and raise the tax rate proportionately. Call it what it is.

I will say, the crack whore on the public dole, who's never worked a day in her life, with 12 chillin's and a cell phone, kind'a chaps my ass ... ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

Okay Jim, let's make that our official policy. If you never paid into it, then you can't take anything out of it. And to take that a step further, let's only allow people to take out what they've actually paid in and not a penny more. That should be the rule for Medicare and Social Security. how long you think it'd take to spend what you paid in for those 20 years? At the max contribution rate that's what, $120k? How long you think that'd last in a retirement plan that pays out $20k a year or so?

My whole point here is that social security isn't a pay as you go deal and never has been. whether you agree with that or not, I could care less. again, it was intended to provide care for elderly people who had no means of support. Remember, pensions and 401 k's didn't exist in those days for the most part. Now people think 'because they paid in' like you do, that they deserve every penny they paid in back. Now its a part of EVERY American's retirement plan whether they need it or not. Tell me we're not an entitlement society. and tell me that conservatives don't have entitlement values every much as the liberals do. I'll tell you you're full of shit.

Maybe we do need to re-engineer social security to be the safety net it was originally intended to be. It would cost less and people could use that money for their own personal retirement plans. The downside to that? There's still people who wouldn't pay a DIME into their own private retirement plan because the big government teat would finance their retirement in their golden years. I mean hell, they paid in for many years right? Who cares if what they paid in most times is way less than what they'll pull out. They're ENTITLED!


BKB

[Buckrub]

You're one of the smartest people I know, so I KNOW you aren't that dumb, man.

If I was self employed, and paid about 15% of my income up to $120K every year for almost 50 years, I'd be expecting a LOT MORE than what this measly mandatory b/s plan pays out! Good grief!!!

It was not originally intended to be a safety net for those who had nothing. It was intended as a SUPPLEMENT for retirement by those whose retirement wouldn't probably be enough. Never mind that this assumption and intention was a social engineering idiocy. But that's what it was. That's from SSA.GOV's own website.

I hate the concept, and wish it didn't exist. But it is an insurance+retirement plan that my employers and I have paid dearly for, compared to the pittance I'm getting back, and I dang sure AM entitled to it.

I'm done. Going to work.

[Penguin]

It was the SS disability thing that truly torqued me. I'm not against stopping fraud, by any means. But the statements that 90% of all freeloaders are conservatives........and further, not even labeling them as conservatives, but "Limbaugh loving jackasses", infuriated me. I don't like Rush Limbaugh and NEVER listen to him. But he's right most of the time, he's just a jackass. Not his listeners, HIM! He's a jackass not for the message, but the delivery. He's like many preachers I've known over the years........he's right, but his method won't convert anyone.

In my world, and I suspect throughout this country.......almost every single freeloader is a believer in the traditional liberal philosophy. None I know of are conservatives, although I'm sure there is a rare one or two running loose. In my world, none of the conservatives are freeloaders!! I'm sure there is one or two of them running loose, too. But not in my world. And to read that my world is immaterial, and that it really is 90%.......is more than disingenuous. It's pure claptrap. And it infuriates me to read crap like that. The underlying belief is simple........"Conservatives are mostly hypocrites, and only Liberals are honest".

Is that sufficient?

Who said 90% of freeloaders are conservatives? I didn't. I didn't even come close.

What I said (reread it you think I'm lying) and meant is that 90% of the absolutely unhinged right wingnuts that I personally know are bums. Absolute parasites.

And them's the facts. That's what I've seen.

I excluded the run of the mill conservatives. The rational and the thoughtful I also excluded. And I limited it to those who I personally know. How could I not? I've no idea whether the guys I know from the internet are who they say they are until we meet and shake hands. On this forum that is limited to Captain and Archer. Those are the only two I have ever met and then only for one hunting trip (which was a good one, thanks Cappy).

And aside from them the only one who knows that I have any believability is Jim. He called through the landline system at Penske Racing once when I was there and walked me through some photo posting I was doing. Aside from those little snippets I am basically an unknown to you guys. OTOH I believe most of you know quite a bit about me. You've seen the best and the worst of my over the last couple decades and come to know me well probably. But that was not the sense of the word I was using. I meant know as in recognize on the street and around me enough to know how I live.

Now back to my experience. I can name names. I can tell you exactly how long and how low these guys I am referring to have lived as they do. These guys are mouth breathing, social security hating, Rush Limbaugh spouting, unhinged, hate filled, wingnuts. And I repeat: Almost to a man they are bums and freeloaders. Almost to a man.

And it tints the way I view people online. Another hunting site (which shall remain unnamed) is filled to the brim with this sort of political craziness that I am referring to. Some of the rhetoric and opinions you can read there any day are simply breathtaking and disturbing. I have seen a bit but, in all honesty, very little of that around this place. I consider most of the guys here right wing but rational. But when I go to that site I cannot help but wonder how many of these commie hunters and bastions of freedom and independence are actually just like the ones I know back home.

I hope that clears thing up Bill. I hate that I have aggravated you. It was honestly not my intent. Although I knew it might be controversial I didn't mean to hurt feelings and make enemies. I enjoy hearing your opinions even if I do disagree sometimes.

Will

[Buckrub]

Bite me. I have PMS.

You ticked me off. I'll get over it. Maybe I misunderstood. I didn't think so. I believe any rational man would conclude that you superimposed your wingnuts onto the majority. But maybe not. Even your post above makes me think that you believe that, deep down.

And it's so wrong it's crazy.

But maybe it's me that is.

Oh, and I'll name one. Go to the Political Forum of arkansashunting.net. I spend a ton of time there trying to tone down these wingnuts. I do. I doubt you believe that. But not one of them are freeloaders.

[Thumper]

Dang Postie, first off, what normal working stiff only works for 20 years and then retires with SSI? Even so, if you only pay in $120,000 ... it doesn't equate to $120,000 "invested". That's $120,000 plus interest. We have no control over how the government invests that money, so we have no control over the interest either. I think I'd be able to invest it for a greater return IMHO ... but I'm not given that choice.

Now, what do you think of my grandfather's situation? He paid into SSI and planned to retire at 65 years old. He died of a massive heart attack 6 months before his 65th birthday and collected nothing. Where did THAT money go? (I know where it went, it's just another variable) People die prematurely every day, so not EVERYBODY pulls out more than they put in.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Again. you people read into shit what you want to read into it. I never called anyone a freeloader. My sole point with all of this was to point out that, in the words of Bucky, we all feel ENTITLED to it a government social security check. We all feel entitled to cheap gas and groceries and we all feel entitled to governmental subsidies to ensure our most basic commodities are provided cheaply. Whether we are conservative or democrat or libertarian, we feel like we have a God given right to those things because we are by-god american. And as long as we feel we are entitled to those things, we will never be able to reform those programs (or us). Period. Its where the bulk of our mandatory taxes go for. Even military dollars are, at least in the modern age, to protect our ECONOMIC way of life more than anything else.

so get down off your high horses and suck even harder on that government teat. I ain't bashing you for it, but I am saying you're 'disingenuous', to use a term thrown at me earlier, if you don't realize that the whole damn thing is rotten.


BKB

[Buckrub]

I ain't entitled to cheap gas and groceries. No one is entitled to government subsidies.

I AM entitled to Social Security.

[Thumper]

Postie ain't gonna accept SSI ... so I hope I live long enough to use mine up and get into some of his. :biggrin

[BarryBobPosthole]

I never said I wasn't gonna accept it dufus. I am a self confessed entitler. Y'all are just in denial is all.

BKB

[Cards01]

.... At least Mo took some action the last couple of days to try and improve the team and open up a spot in the outfield for one of the young guys... maybe get a little fire and wake up call to the Birds on the Bat

[Thumper]

.... At least Mo took some action the last couple of days to try and improve the team and open up a spot in the outfield for one of the young guys... maybe get a little fire and wake up call to the Birds on the Bat

Spoil Sport! ;)

[quercus alba]

The only thing this topic needs to come full circle is to bring sex into it.




you're up Thump

[Thumper]

The only thing this topic needs to come full circle is to bring sex into it. you're up Thump


Well, screw all'o youse dufes! (how's that?) ;)

[DeputyDog]

Barry, you are right about Social Security not running out. It's currently being propped up by all the Mexican children who have came to this country and are working under false SS numbers and won't ever draw anything out of the system. :biggrin

[BarryBobPosthole]

Barry, you are right about Social Security not running out. It's currently being propped up by all the Mexican children who have came to this country and are working under false SS numbers and won't ever draw anything out of the system. :biggrin

HAHAHAHA....Brown is my new favorite color!

BKB

[Buckrub]

Oh...by the way........Social Security sucks as an investment. Not only does it pale in comparison to a decent ROI, it stops instantly if/when you die, even if it's one month after starting drawing. That's an amazingly terrible investment. Here's some reading.

http://dqydj.net/is-social-security-a-good-investment/

[Captain]

....

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Thumper]

That's right, just change the subject. In that last pic, Cappy not only has two heads and three arms, he's lost! Shouldn't this be in the fishing forum? No wait! Do we even HAVE a fishing forum?

[LJ3]

Ugly Cap'n for the win!

[Buckrub]

Iv'e heard folks here road hunt.........first time I've heard of road/bridge fishin'.........

[BarryBobPosthole]

What color is that shirt? Peach?

BKB

[Buckrub]

I think.

It's August. The shirt is long sleeved. This man is tough.

[Thumper]

What color is that shirt? Peach? BKB

I think it's officially called Imgayapricot. :D

[Captain]

Bite me...
This was a double actually we had a triple but the third was small.
Several times today we had on doubles and triples. Great day.
Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Arty]

I ain't entitled to cheap gas and groceries. No one is entitled to government subsidies.

I AM entitled to Social Security.

Ya' damn right you are... as am I. And every other fucker in this place that has ever paid a nickel into this POS program. ONE thing I wish Bush 2 could have done....allow folks to invest their SS $ into a private account. DAMN IT!!!!! I'm pretty sure I'm the youngest, prettiest, wild mustang in this forum....and it pisses me off to put the kind of money I do into this program. NOT because the folks like my dad, and FIL, and mom, and most of my neighbors. and some of you, are drawing on what I know to be 'borrowed from me' money* ...but because I really do not see what I "put in" as any more than any other bullshit TAX.

I've put in my "fair share" of Social Security contributions since 1993. And if the good Lord is willing and blesses me and my family in this career...then I will max out my Social Security contributions every year for 29 consecutive years. Yes, I have 24 more years until retirement. If I make it that long. I REALLY like fried chicken and COLD beer. Doc hasn't told me to stop yet, so it must be alright. But I do hike a lot with the family, I'm pretty sure that negates any wrong doings.

And if the Lord allows me to work another 24 years at this pace of income...and the Govt gives me the bird and says "no money left"....then you will see me on the news...in an orange jump suit. Cuz imma go postal.

When I look at mine and my wife's retirement, I TRY not to even factor in SS...but it's so damn tempting. At my stage in life, it COULD be as much as half of my 401k (looking at it monthly). At least I have my Roth, my wife's 403b, and my pension (Which was FROZEN 3 years ago... but at least I'm getting something. Maybe I can buy a new boat and have the pension check make the payment 24 years from now. But in reality it'll probably be some crazy new thing my wife wants to buy. Who knows...)


But on a completely different subject...WAY TO MANY people are on SS...or SSI, whatever you call it...that didn't pay shit, don't deserve shit, and I don't think of them any higher than the dog turd I stepped in on the way back from the garden this afternoon when I picked a big ole basket of peppers that I will can tomorrow morning.

And for the record, about 1/2 of the people I can name off from memory that I KNOW for a fact are full of shit with their 'disability'...are wildly and weirdly conservative.




* "borrowed from me" means ONLY that the government done spent everything there is in it...and it's really probably not even borrowed from me...but probably from my 16 and 10 year old.....when they start being taxed for this shit.

[Arty]

Oh...and nice feesh there Cappy...