Hey Bucky - RV question

[johnboy]

Looks like I'll be picking up the new trailer on Fri. (Jayco Jay Flight 26RKS) and was looking at some of the so-called "no sway" hitches like the PullRite, Hensley, ProPride etc. Expensive ($2500!!) but I'm a little twitchy about towing after The Incident and want the best. I was wondering what you are using with your rig and if you looked at these types of units.

[Thumper]

See if your RV dealer will work with you. You could try to go for a package deal, but chances are, they'd just tack the thing on and make money on it. See if they'll order one and give it to you at their cost as part of the package. They love to make money off of the aftermarket stuff ... but if you're buying a trailer from them, you should have some leverage.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Not trying to hijack this question to the Buckster but I did want to just comment that after 2200 miles on the road that there are a LOT more of these big RVs on the road and you see all manners of vehicles mated up with them, ranging from duallies to mid sized pickups. One thing in common is that they all seemed to get moved around a lot by wind from passing vehicles.

BKB

[Sunshine]

Heck our Rv gets blown around Every time a semi-truck passed us. Scared the crap out of me.

[johnboy]

Thump, It's not the price I'm waffling about, it's what particular brand to consider. When you get into it, there are a BUNCH of manufacturers with different models of weight distributing/anti-sway hitches and according to them, theirs is the best (of course). I've studied this ad nauseum and I still don't know which way to go. As well, each dealer will carry a specific brand and that's what they will include in the price negotiation. May not be the one that I want.

Barry, it's actually scarey seeing the rigs that some people tow with light weight trucks and suv's. Accidents waiting to happen. I towed our old trailer for 6 years without a problem until I hit the perfect storm of factors (heavily loaded trailer, downhill run, left turn, very gusty/windy and uneven road surface) that set of an unrecoverable sway condition which happens more quickly and is more violent than you can imagine. Very easily could have died and/or killed other people.

Anyway, I want to do every thing possible to make sure this does not happen again so am willing to spend whatever it takes to be safe. After all my research, I still don't know which hitch to buy.

[jb]

johnboy
I ain't Bucky either (Thank God :winkd) but is sounds like you're getting the same model I bought two years ago. 256RKS
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/jbmich/IMG_2310.jpg
I tow mine with a Ford Expedition EL that came with a heavy duty towing package and anti sway program.
They still recommended that my hitch be a weight distribution type, they sold me this one.
http://www.reesehitches.com/products/Reese_High_Performance_Trunnion_Weight_Distributin g_Hitch__1_200_lbs_,66022
Very steady tow at 65mph, don't feel comfortable going much faster.
Good luck, one thing to remember, with this type of hitch if the unit tips over, so will the tow vehicle.

[Sunshine]

Jb we had one of those on our trailer, carrying a lathe, mill, tools etc, that we towed from Florida to Washington.
We put brakes on it to, so if we did have trouble on the mountain passes, from the weight pushing the F-150 truck, we could brake from the cab.

That hitch worked great.

Just remember to unload it when you aren't towing. :)

Oh and I could load it myself.

[johnboy]

jb, Yes, a very similar unit indeed. Length, weight etc quite close. How do you like it? Has Jayco been good to you?

I've always used a wd hitch but they don't do much at all to prevent, stop or at least reduce the dreaded sway problem. You know, "sway" sounds like a minor issue and most of the time it is until it results in your trailer sliding down the road on its side while pushing your truck everywhichway. I was VERY lucky that our trusty GMC stayed upright during it all.

Some hitches are designed (supposedly) to counteract or eliminate the sway situation like this one: http://hensleymfg.com/
or the ProPride, which is very similar
http://www.propridehitch.com/products/ProPride-3P-Trailer-Sway-Control-Hitch-.html
This one also says it will eliminate sway:
http://www.pullrite.com/products/pullrite-worry-free-travel-trailer-towing/standard-pullrite-10k

I think I will get the standard type wd hitch from the rv dealer and look into upgrading to one of the above before I take any long trips.

Oh yeah, what is an "anti sway program"? Sounds interesting.

[Thumper]

Yeah Johnboy, I didn't expect the dealer to carry the particular brand you decide on. What I'm saying is, if you know what you want, they should be able to buy it at a wholesale price. What I'm suggesting is, see if they'll order it and give it to you at THEIR cost as a "thanks for buying from us" bonus.

[jb]

I should have said it came with an anti-sway bar, not program.
We've been very happy with our Jayco, they seem well built and nice quality.
This is only our second summer with it, but so far no complaints.
I think the fact we keep it stored in our pole barn year around helps.

[Bwana]

A fifth-wheel eliminates the need for a sway bar...just saying.

[BarryBobPosthole]

You know in a certain way it makes total sense that a couple of yankees would need to ask a southern boy a question about trailer houses.

BKB

[johnboy]

Good point Jim. I'll talk to them about that.

Bwana, yup, had a 5'er and loved it. Not possible for it to "sway". Sold it when we moved to the coast. Still a possibility if I'm not comfortable towing this new unit.

BBP, I ain't no yankee. :D

[Buckrub]

Anybody north of Blue Ball, MO is a Yankee. Just sayin'.

ProPride is what I'd get if get another bumper pull. Yeah, expensive. But zero sway. Hensley is about the same type. You need to go the website and watch the multiple videos on how to hook up, and make sure you're comfortable with that. But there is NO sway.

I have a Husky with a Sway Bar. It helps. What makes the most difference is the tires. Most new trailers come with cheapo bias ply tires. You need radials. I need radials. I just can't see paying money for four Maxxis radials on a trailer 15 months old. But before long I will have to. That will eliminate most of the porpoising and such I feel. I did wrench the sway bar WAY down last trip and it was way, way better, including porpoising. It'll take new tires to fix that.

My next one is going to be a 5er........just can't see anything else being what I want.

But if you want NO SWAY, period, ever.......get a Hensley or ProPride. Here's my question on those, though.........who installs it? If I was going to get a new one, I'd call the dealer and say "I'm thinking of buying your trailer, but I don't want that pissy ant little WDH you're selling. I want a Hensley. Will you install it and guarantee it?"..........and see what he says. THEN, I'd call the folks on the ProPride or Hensley website and talk real time to them. Yeah it may be a dollar a minute for you to call, but hey, it's Canadian dollars, so.........

:)

That's my best advice on your question.

[johnboy]

Bucky, tx, you pretty much said what I'm thinking. ProPride seems to be an updated version of the Hensley and gets top reviews on any rv website I've looked at. They can be a bit of a pain to hook up but I'm retired - got lots of time. I just never want to experience that out of control feeling ever again and if a few more $$ will resolve that then what the hell. I'm going to talk to the rv dealer about this as you suggest cause I really don't want to install it myself.

You know, I never gave much thought to the tires on the rv being a contributor to the problem but it does make sense, now that I think about it. Trailer tires generally have soft sidewalls to allow you to pivot the unit without scrubbing. Just watch someone pulling in to a tight spot and see how much they flex. Gotta be a squirm problem there. Going to check on that. Might also look at shocks for the trailer.

We'll see how this goes. I might have to give up my canopy and get another 5'er if this don't work for me. Maybe a whole new truck!

[Buckrub]

ST tires are what comes on them.

LT tires are better. But getting them in the sizes most trailers take, isn't always possible. Check out the Maxxis, they also make good ATV tires. But get RADIALS. Heck, maybe the dealer will upgrade???

New Truck?? Geez, dude. IT'S TIME FOR A NEW TRUCK FOR YOU!!! Get the Diesel Duramax and never look back again.

You can go out, but it takes a stud muffin to go out in style. :)

[Thumper]

I'll admit it's been a long, LONG time since I was in the tire business, but youse dufes are talking about fighting sway. I'm sure times have changed drastically and I may be living in the stone age, but from my knowledge of tire construction, a radial is the LAST thing I'd want on a trailer. In fact, back in the day, NO radial was recommended for trailers. The old designation for trailer tires was "ST" I believe ... do they still use that? There's a big difference between an automotive tire and a trailer tire. The ST's had compounds to keep the tire from drying out from non-use (parked) whereas, automotive tires are designed to excrete these compounds as you drive (park for an extended period and an automotive tire will dry out and crack). That said, I'm assuming they do make radials for trailers now, BUT ... from "my" knowledge of radial tire design, a trailer would have a lot more sway than if it were equipped with bias-ply tires. The sidewalls on a radial are designed to flex ... that's why they run lower tire pressures and if you look at one (under load) from the front/rear, the sidewalls bulge out and the tire appears to be under-inflated.

Again, I'm sure times have changed and I'm light years behind the times, but the way a radial is constructed, I just can't see how a radial would be superior to a bias-ply as far as "sway" is concerned. Better wear, better mileage ... yes ... but you guys' main concern here seems to be sway.

You won't hurt my feelings if you call me a dinosaur ... I was in the tire business many, many years ago ... so I really AM a dinosaur. BUT ... I still know the physics of radial tire design vs. bias-ply (or at least I USED to).

[johnboy]

Just did a quick search on rv trailer tires and it appears that there are a LOT of radial ST tires out there. More shit to think about! I'm getting a headache.

[Buckrub]

As I said, there are few LT tires in the sizes Travel Trailers use. But my TT is wearing on the inside and outside treads and it porpoises (not sways). Tire dealer said "Fix is simple. Get good radials". I didn't say they fixed sway.

Even most of the new Travel Trailer Brochures on the top end trailers say "Radial Tires are the industry standard for the last 20 years".

Sway is fixed with the right kind of hitch. ST tires have different sidewalls that flex more. LT sidewalls don't flex but pull straight, better.

It's a compromise of sorts.

[Thumper]

Well, what is scaring the bejeebers out'ta Johnboy is SWAY. Why run an elebenty-bazillion $$$ hitch system to fight sway, then bollt on a set of radials? A radial will be more susceptible to sway than a bias-ply IMHO.

Again, I'm admitting I'm a dinosaur ... but I DO understand the different design aspects.

I should probably just butt out 'cause I've been away from this stuff way too long to make intelligent suggestions. The best thing for me to do would prolly be to shut up and do some studying. I may actually learn something.

[johnboy]

Tires wearing on the inside and outside treads usually means under inflation don't it? Are you running close to max on tire pressure? By "porpoising" (that word always looks like it's spelled wrong to me) I guess you mean bouncing vertically? Weight distribution maybe? Too light tongue weight? Yeah, 5th wheels are way easier!

[Thumper]

5th wheels are the tits ... but you no longer have a pick'em up truck. :(

[Buckrub]

Why not?

And I understand about ST...........I said you will probably get ST tires for a trailer. But there are proponents of LT tires. I shouldn't have brought that up. Never mind.

as for Radials, here's an excerpt from a site discussing trailer tires. Note the last sentence. I got an Entry Level Trailer (and sorry John, but a Jayco is also a lower level, lower cost trailer), and they scrimped everywhere, including tires:

http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-how-to/trailer-tech/rolling-along-safely-a-tire-guide/

Bias-ply or Radial?

Bias-ply tires are designed with cords that are oriented at about 60 degrees from the direction of travel and are layered to crisscross over each other. This design makes bias-ply tires more rugged, which is a good fit for some rougher terrain and some off-roading. The cord pattern creates a greater resistance to sidewall punctures.

Radial tires feature plies that run perpendicular to the direction of travel. Radial tires deliver a smooth ride, better tread wear and retain less heat, which also extends tire life.

Since bias-ply and radial tires have dramatically different construction and handling characteristics, you should never mix the two types of tires. Always choose one or the other for your trailer. Bias-ply tires are rarely found on new trailers these days.

[Buckrub]

Here's some more, Dinosaur! I RHYME!

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/26621604

So, and ST Radial probably sorta compromises and solves both the sidewall flex AND the towing issue.

The biggest issue (to me) is LOAD RANGE. D, E........good. Load Range C on a 6,000 lb trailer??? Nope.

Load Range
Bias vs. Radial
ST vs. LT

then there is the discussion about shocks!!!

[Buckrub]

And here's a discussion (among dozens) on the Owner's Group Forum that I belong to. Worth reading.

http://www.forestriverforums.com/forums/f219/bias-tires-vs-radial-a-few-questions-22843.html

[Thumper]

Ok, I'm reading it ... but don't "understand" it. If you're going for longer wear and smoother ride ... as I mentioned above, the radial is king.

Here's what I DO NOT understand though. It says you seldom find bias-plies on trailers these days. Why? Because they ride smoother and wear longer? NOBODY addresses "sway" ... which is what this post is all about.

From your article above: Bias-ply tires are designed with cords that are oriented at about 60 degrees from the direction of travel and are layered to crisscross over each other. This design makes bias-ply tires more rugged, which is a good fit for some rougher terrain and some off-roading. The cord pattern creates a greater resistance to sidewall punctures.

Note MY highlight. Why is it less susceptible to sidewall punctures? I'll tell you why ... the sidewalls are MUCH stronger which equates to less flex. That's why they ride rougher. Sidewalls on a radial are very thin normally and that's why they ride smoother ... they flex a LOT. Now, if you throw a bunch of side force on your trailer (wind for example), do you want a tire with a stiff side wall that will not flex from side to side ... or do you want a radial that flexes like a bowl of jello when a side force is applied? It ends up acting like a rubber band ... it flexes to the left, it springs back to the right, it springs back to the left ... that's what I call "sway". We can talk rolling resistance, heat build-up or tire wear all day ... a radial is far superior. It also rides smoother because of the flex built into the sidewall ... the tires act like springs to a certain extent. If you want to talk about sidewall flex, a bias-ply is far superior.

From your same article above: This design makes bias-ply tires more rugged, which is a good fit for some rougher terrain and some off-roading. The cord pattern creates a greater resistance to sidewall punctures.

Why? Because they are thicker, stiffer ... which translates to less side-to-side sway. I'm not sure why camper manufacturers are touting radials for their smoother ride ... who rides in the trailer when being towed? Maybe it won't bounce your dishes around as much. (?)

I'm not really arguing (did I say that?) ... I'm just trying to understand. I know how bias-ply and radial tires are constructed and I see no way in Hell a radial would be less susceptible to sway ... and that's what this whole discussion is about. (isn't it?)

As for your LT tire suggestion ... see my explanation of trailer tires vs. automotive tires ... that's why you do not want to run LT tires on a trailer ... unless you're hauling it all the time and it never sits for long periods.

[Thumper]

I just read that last link Bucky. Here's an excerpt regarding the superiority of radials. I agree with all points except one ... number 6 ... it looks like he did a cut & paste from a tire ad. I'd like someone to explain how a radial will have less sway than a bias-ply. Maybe something has changed ... I'd like to know what that is. These forums don't really tell me much ... it's a bunch of guys (like us) expressing their opinions ... I'd like to hear from a tire EXPERT who is NOT hawking his own company's tire. An unbiased scientific opinion so to speak. I'd really like to learn something here that is not heresy.

1) Softer, smoother, quieter ride
2) Improved fuel economy
3) Flat, wider footprint for better tire wear
4) Runs cooler than a bias ply, minimizing risk of a blowout on the highway
5) Longer tire life
6) Better tracking – Improved sway control

[johnboy]

LOL!! GH at it's best! I start a thread asking about hitches and we wind up in a big "discussion" about tires. That's why I love this place - just a bunch a dufes shooting the bull. :D

OK, so now I've got to worry about hitches, tires and pieces falling off my cheap trailer. I'm going to have a cocktail or two and get mellow if you know what I mean. ;D

[Thumper]

Actually ... I thought the thread was about eliminating sway ... I think that's what it all boils down to doesn't it? :D

[Buckrub]

John asked about no sway hitches. I gave him what I thought of that. THEN I added some additional things that I, in my worthless opinion, thought he should also be considering.

Not going to argue. I just told what little I know about trailering, and what tire dealers have told me. I don't know anything more. Y'all go at it.

[BarryBobPosthole]

FWIW, I have radial tires onmy boat trailer and it makes a big difference. I don't pull the weights you guys are talking about but I think tires make a difference. They certainly won't walk a seam in the highway with you like non-radial tires do.
BKB

[Thumper]

I ain't arguing ... just trying to learn something. I understand this thread is about no sway hitches. Sure, it strayed to tires in proper G/H style, but John's accident was caused by "sway". I figured anything that helped fight sway ... hitch, tires, shocks, weight distribution ... whatever ... was fair game for discussion. Don't get me wrong, radials are a far superior tire for most applications. For serious off-roading, I'll stick with bias-ply's thank you. BUT ... it's been years since I was into "serious" off-roading. For everyday, "normal" and light-duty off-road use ... I'm all over a radial. Trailers? I guess I'm old-school if I'm hauling a broad-sided trailer like a camper ... give me a bias-ply. If I'm hauling a boat, utility trailer, motorcycle trailer, etc. ... I'd go for the radials.

To be honest, from what I've read here, I'm assuming radial tire technology has changed quite a bit over the years and possibly the ST designation these days means the sidewall situation has been addressed. I really don't know. I'm way behind on this stuff ... I just haven't heard an explanation of why, how or if things have changed or if radials are just the norm on a broad-sided trailer these days.

[johnboy]

Chill boys! I appreciate all opinions and all the discussion bout tyres has been informative. Something more to think about. It's a sad day when you don't learn something new, donchaknow. Thanks to all and to all, a good night.

[Thumper]

Ha! No chillin' needed Johnboy. I'm gettin' an education here myownfineself. I grew up and always was a car guy. By time I was 5-6, I could tell what model and year a car was from two blocks away ... even at night. When I was 11, I installed a new water pump on my mom's car. Dad thought nothing of bringing the pump home from the parts store one night and going to work the next morning, leaving me with the task. I could HEAR a car driving on the next block and tell you the make without even seeing it. I built my own car from the ground up in high school and drove it to college (as well as raced it on the street). None of that is an exaggeration. These days, I can't tell a Chevy from a Nissan half the time, and frankly, I don't really care about much of that stuff now-a-days. Cars just aren't that "cool" to me anymore and I simply look for reliable transportation with good resale value these days (did someone say TOYOTA?) ;) . What I'm trying to say is, when I speak of being a dinosaur in these matters, I really am. I was IN the tire business for a period of time and I'm probably stuck in the 70's-80's (I managed the tire departments within the dealerships). The ONLY thing I'm falling back on is the construction of the two options and trying to use logic ... maybe that doesn't always work. I think I've tried to make it clear a dozen times, I ain't arguin' ... just trying to understand. I've read "opinions" from auto related forums and even blurbs from tire ads ... I just haven't seen anything scientific from people who know facts, not general opinions. That's how my mind works. It should be easy to change my opinion on tires (BTW, there is no "Y" in tires ;) ) as tires are a technology that is always changing, improving (hopefully) and evolving. "Proof" of claims is out there and can be shown to me. This TIRE discussion took me by surprise and I've been learning sumpin' here. Stuff I USED to know and THOUGHT I still did. I find it interesting.

[Captain]

Who's rubber is better Durex or Trojan?

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[Thumper]

No clue ... never wore one.

What kind of dufebutt takes a shower with a raincoat on? ;)

[Captain]

What kind of dufe takes a shower with a raincoat on? ;)

The kind that takes a LOT of showers in different places.... ;)

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[Thumper]

Ummmm .... naaaa! ;)

Do you use radials or bias-ply?

[Captain]

Ummmm .... naaaa! ;) Do you use radials or bias-ply?

Radials. Mostly Michelin.

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[Thumper]

Steel belted I assume? :D

[Bwana]

johnboy, you can put in a whiz-bang special of a fifth-wheel hitch for way less money then you are talking about for the anti-sway hitch.

As for the not having a pickup argument, there is still SOME room for storage plus you might also want to look at a toy hauler so you could bring the bike with you when you go camping. That way you could take the missus for a cruise in the evening before lighting the campfire to make s'mokes. Don't disregard the toy haulers until you have looked at one in person. The newer ones are WAY more then a cargo hold at the back of your camper.

[Buckrub]

He said "s'mokes"........to Johnboy.......giggle!!!!!

[Thumper]

S'mokes?? Do you get the munchies and eat s'mores after s'mokin' 'em? :D

[Thumper]

Dang, ya' beat me to it Buckster. ;)

[Buckrub]

:rockon

[Buckrub]

That said, JohnP has some good advice. Worth looking into, Johnboy.

[Bwana]

Stupid auto-correct. Then again, he is close to the Seattle area so just maybe s'mokes IS applicable. ;-)

[johnboy]

Good advice fer sure but it looks like it's going to be another trailer at this point for a few reasons. I'm going to go see the dealer today to talk hitches and stuff so we'll see how that works out.

Bucky, if your trailer is bouncing you need to look at your setup - hitch height, tongue weight, trailer loading, that kind of stuff. Only time I had any pogoing was when my truck shocks were shot but you have a brand new truck so that ain't it.

You know, I've had every kind of rv except for a motor home (rented one once though) and every one has had pros and cons. There just isn't a perfect rig no matter what you choose. Actually, if I could have worked it with the insurance co., I would have used the settlement to buy a new boat but it's "like for like" so it's a trailer.

I think I'll settle down once I've pulled the new one for a few miles (hopefully).

[Buckrub]

I've done all that, and it might be the setup. I've added washers, taken washers out.......and I THINK it's about right, right now. It did much, much better last trip. It's just that with this bigass truck, I'd have thought I'd not even notice it's back there........but I do. I didn't notice much sway....but it sort of bounced a little.....less than the time before. Again, the tire dealer friend of mine tells me that is almost likely to be due to bias ply tires. I also think it's probably due to the fact that the wifey has loaded 6/19ths of everything we own in that trailer.....and it probably isn't balanced right. But it's not bad enough to make me go fiddle with it......

As for the sway, the ProPride is still the Cadillac and the way to go, IF you are gonna keep this forever........

[Captain]

My hotel room don't sway unless I've been in the brown likker pretty good.... :D

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[johnboy]

Had a good discussion with the dealer and the owner has decided to install the Husky Centre Line System

http://www.huskytow.com/wp-includes/pdfs/Literature/H-1-A_HITCH_1.pdf

for me instead of the standard Husky hitch. At no charge, I might add. Nice. These seem like good people to deal with (so far).

[Buckrub]

Wow. Well, there's one I didn't know about. Seems to be a great compromise between normal WDH's and the ProPride. And the price is right!!

DO LET ME KNOW how this works, ok?

[johnboy]

Absolutely. I'll know by the time I get home tomorrow aft. It's about an hour freeway from the dealer to home. You know, I'm actually getting a little excited (in a good way) about this.

[johnboy]

Well we picked it up yesterday afternoon and drove straight home on a pretty busy 4 laner. No problems at all. The tech took some time to set up the hitch for the truck and show me the proper method to hook up and disconnect. This Husky is a little different than the old style chain type hitch that I had before as far as that goes but it seems to work pretty good. I was a little twitchy at first and kept the speed down to 50-55 for the first few miles but it felt so stable that I was at normal cruise speed of 60-65 pretty quick. Trailer tows a little heavier than my last one (2' longer) but no probs for the big block.

Heading out for Alberta tomorrow in the 'stang to visit the grandkids for a week so everybody behave whilst I'm gone. :D

[Thumper]

Just wonderin' Johnboy ... have you had any contact with Marg? If you should happen to see her, give her my best and let her know we're all thinking of her.