The Impacts We've Had

[BarryBobPosthole]

I just finished reading a non-fiction book by Washington Irving (the guy who wrote 'Legend of Sleepy Hollow' and Rumplestiltskin'). The book is a journal about a camping trip he made through Oklahoma in the 1830's. It's called "A Tour On the Prairie". First off, I think the guy might be a tad gay. He travels and camps with a young Swedish count who's a little bit too much Swedish and too much Count ifyouknowwhatImeanand/Ithinkyoudo. He also has an English adventurer buddy and another 'companion'. Also along for the trip was a guy named Bean who commanded a troop of Arkansawyers (imagine what 1830's Arkansawyers would be like, kinda like Bucky who grew up in that era) called 'Bean's Rangers' and were somehow all paid by the federal government. The Five Civilized Tribes were at that time uncivilized and hadn't gotten to Oklahoma yet. The indians that were here were the ones that were here when the white folks decided to come here, mainly Osages, a few Creeks who wandered in and the Pawnee who were bad juju if white folks ran into them. They were pissed already. Sam Houston was in town when the group hit Fort Gibson, located on the Texas highway, as was the new head Indian Commisioner fresh from Connecticut of all places. I imagine he knew all about indian affairs with his background of being a Connecticut Yankee. There were also some hired help to scout, hunt, and tend to the horses.

Anyhow, they left Fort Gibson near the three forks of the Arkansas, Neosho, and Verdigris Rivers and went north west to about where Tulsa is now, headed on west to about Stilwater, then down south to where Edmond (near Okie city) and Norman are now and then back to Fort Gibson. the trip took a couple of months and they covered probably 250 miles total. The area then (and now) was covered with the Crosstimbers forest then, which is an old growth forest interspersed with prairie. They killed elk almost every day, at least a dozen deer a day, dozens of turkeys when deer or elk were scarce, buffalo, and caught wild horses when they saw them. They preserved nothing. They typically killed twice as much meat as they could use every day and when they broke camp, the meat was simply left to rot. Of the buffalo, they only ate the tongues and humps and left the rest to spoil. They shot many animals just to look a them. They broke down the horses they rode from overwork to the point where they left a string of broken down horses along the trail the entire way. Irving was quite matter of fact about those things in the account of the trip. It really makes you think about what kind of people actually settled this country. I hate to judge them by modern values, but it still boils down to a tremendous lack of respect for the place they took for their own.
Irving called it a paradise and it sure sounded like one. They had excellent pasturage for their horses the entire trip and never ran short of water. But like the Eagles say, 'You call someplace paradise, kiss it goodbye'.

There aren't any native elk here any more, there are any buffalo except those on preserves, we husband our deer population like its oil, and the turkeys we have were reintroduced. I could get bitter about this if I dwelled on it much, those assholes. They certainly didn't care what their grandchildren inherited like you hear everyone say these days.

BKB

[Thumper]

If you ever study the plight of the bison/buffalo during the early 1800's, it'll make you sick.

[DeputyDog]

I think that part of it may have been that game was so plentiful that they didn't comprehend that they could wipe out an entire species by doing what they were doing. I'll admit that the buffalo was done intentionally to wipe out the natives that depended on them for just about everything.

[Captain]

There was a dove/pigeon that was wiped out from over harvest too. I saw a deal on TV where they are bringing it back by using DNA from the foot of a mounted bird.
They said flocks of them were so thick they could block out the sun.
Lots of folks against them bringing them back.

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[BarryBobPosthole]

Are those the passenger pigeons?
BKB

[Niner]

If it wasn't for the efforts of the NWTF the wild turkey certainly would not have made the kind of comback that we've seen.

[Chicken Dinner]

Daddy won't you take me back to Mulenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mr. Peabody's coal train done hauled it away.

[HideHunter]

We have to be careful here. As Thump says - the plight of the bison was bad but the largest numbers were wiped out my government sanctioned slaughter to cripple the Native Americans. For years, passenger pigeons were the only species considered to be wiped out by hunting. Recent studies show they were a fragile species due to their feeding habits. They needed *vast* expanses of oak, chestnut and other mixed hardwood forests. The kind of wholesale slaughter they were subjected to definitely depleted the numbers but it was once again, "habitat destruction" that insured their demise.

That said, without a doubt; The white man could screw up a wet dream.

[Captain]

Yea that was it the passenger pigeon.
Here the link to the work being done to un-extinct them.
http://www.history.com/news/the-revival-of-the-passenger-pigeon

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[LJ3]

Can we 'un-extinct" 1950's housewives?

June Cleavers toenail or something?

[Niner]

What choo talkin 'bout LJ?
Your significant other dosen't wear a pearl necklace and apron over her nice dress whilst creating a scrumptious dinner.....after bringing your slippers and pipe???

[Tightline]

WhereWhite Man Went Wrong-By Chief Two Eagles, who was asked by a White gov't official, You have observed the white man for 90 years, you've seen his wars and his techno advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done".
The Chief nodded in agreement.
The official continued, "Considering all these events. In your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"
The Chief stared at the govt official, then replied.
When white man find land, Indians running it, so no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water, Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."
Then the Chief leaned back and smiled. ' only white man dumb enough to think he could improve a system like that."

[Thumper]

What choo talkin 'bout LJ? Your significant other dosen't wear a pearl necklace ......???

Ha ha ha! Don't look now LJ ... but I think Mr. Crow9 just asked if Lucia wears a pearl necklace. (is he showing his age?) ;)

[Thumper]

Yep, the Indians depended on the buffalo for their survival, so in our infinite wisdom, we decided if we wipe out the buffalo, that in turn, would wipe out the Indian ... or at least force them onto reservations. One of our government's more brilliant moves.

Here's just one of the MANY piles of skulls during the eradication.

http://www.retronaut.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Buffalo-Skulls-1870.jpg

[HideHunter]

Isn't that freaking amazing? I'd give a lot of money to have seen these two species at their peak.

[Thumper]

They'd usually let the meat rot ... but at least they'd sometimes grind up the bones for fertilizer.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/newsreleases/2014/march-24-2014/dust-storms-still-causing-damage-in-n-d/2014-03-28.0535818478/image

[HideHunter]

Most of the "bone picking" was done after the fact. Trying to get the last dime out of a largely decimated species.

[Captain]

Here's just one of the MANY piles of skulls during the eradication.

Who you trying to fool? You know that picture was made out behind my skinin' shed at the SC farm right after deer season.

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[Buckrub]

If you can kill that many of Animal A with a stick and string or a blunderbuss, what would Darwin say about Animal A?

And.....When did you learn to read? Cool!!

[BarryBobPosthole]

If that's what they were killing them with I highly doubt they'd have killed that many.

BKB

[Thumper]

The Indians used to drive buffalo over a cliff to kill them ... or at least injure them enough that others at the bottom could finish them off. The difference is, they used EVERY bit of the buffalo from the obvious meat and hides to the sinew and hooves.

The white man came along and used those drives to kill vast numbers of them and let them rot ... just to eliminate that food source for the Indian.

I think they were called "buffalo jumps" if I remember correctly.

[Thumper]

Good ol' Google came through ... here's a drawing/explanation of a buffalo jump.

http://ridingthebuses.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Buffalo-falling-over-cliff-Riding-the-buses.jpg

[BarryBobPosthole]

In the 1830's, when Irving made his extended camping trip in the Oklahoma Cross Timbers, buffalo didn't enter into indian policy yet. The early 1830's was when the policy of 'indian removal' was started. This was basically made possible by two things: old Thomas Jefferson had put in place a plan to freely loan money to the 'Civilized Tribes' that were trying to adapt to American policies while trying to maintain their sovereignty. The plan was to make them so indebted to the US government that the government could essentially foreclose on those loans and take their land. I know the Choctaws and Cherokees especially sold land to US government at very cheap prices to pay off loans and that was one of the prime reasons for the eventual Indian Removal Act that was pushed and passed by Andrew Jackson. The other big mover were new treaties that the US Government essentially forced the tribes into, this coming right after the Choctaws fought with Jackson in New Orleans against the British. It was pretty low bhavior by any stretch of the imagination.

anyway, back to buffalo, the real demise of the buffalo came when technology adavance in the 1860's and 70's and the invention of the Sharps rifle. Man, I've always wanted to shoot one of those old 50 or 60 cal sharps buffalo guns. Because of how buffalo behaved, they could sit way off and kill hundreds of them without spooking the herd. Which is exactly what they did.

BKB

[HideHunter]

The Indians used to drive buffalo over a cliff to kill them ... or at least injure them enough that others at the bottom could finish them off. The difference is, they used EVERY bit of the buffalo from the obvious meat and hides to the sinew and hooves.



Actually - that's a bit of a myth also. They used every bit of the buffalo *they could use*.. What's 10 Indians going to do with 100 or buffalo - or a thousand? They might move the village to the site of a jump. But when the critters no longer became "usable" they moved on in search of more. Don't get me wrong. I'm not downgrading the American Indian and I think they got a raw deal. But the whole "Noble Savage" thing is steeped in legend. Their camps got so littered with trash (albeit all "organic") that they would pack up, throw a "match" (sic) in it and move. When they came back, whenever, everything was nice and fresh.

[BarryBobPosthole]

amen to that. there weren't no such thing as a 'noble savage'. that was an invention by writers and philosophers and heavy thinkers of that age, Rousseau being one of them that got quoted a lot.

The thing was though, they did husband the buffalo herds to maintain them by burning the prairies and creating new grass pasturage and keeping the bluestem healthy all across their range. It's probably up for grabs as to whether they did this by accident or on purpose though! they just didn't have the technology (or in truth the horses) to really do much damage to those huge herds.

BKB

[Thumper]

What it all boils down to is, humans are humans. Some are better than others, but NONE of 'em are perfect ... and some just down-right suck.

[BarryBobPosthole]

What it all boils down to is, humans are humans. Some are better than others, but NONE of 'em are perfect ... and some just down-right suck.

Purty much right on.

I'd still like to shoot one of those old buffalo guns. I'll bet they kick like a mule.

BKB

[Chicken Dinner]

I've actually shot a reproduction Sharps a bunch of times. It was so heavy that the kick is quite manageable and really fun to shoot. (Nothing better than shooting steel silouettes at 200 yards with a peep site.) This was chambered in .45-70 and I assume they used something similar on bison.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I think the difference between the Sharps 50 and 60 caliber rifles and the 45-70s was the range they'd shoot. The 45-70s were more of a short range brush gun (they even made a pistol version) and the Sharps were more of a long range gun. Either would probably work on buffalo but I think the old buffalo hunters preferred the sharps because they could hide a long way off and decimate a herd without spooking it.

BKB