LEO comment on this?????

[Buckrub]

http://www.thv11.com/story/news/local/2014/12/11/confrontation-over-open-carry-interpretation/20275935/

And from Facebook (so they tell me):
From FB

Drew Tanner: Forcibly grabbed and twisted my arm before saying he was ASP, and did not show his badge when I asked to see it. I got free and called 911 as I was going to exit the store and he was following me. Dispatch told me to stay in the store and tell an employee. When I told the employee and pointed him out, he then lifted his shirt so his badge and gun were visible. Searcy Police showed up and were very respectful and professional, they asked for my ID, and I gave it to them. The ASP officer proceeded to yell and curse at me, and the SPD officer asked me if I had a way home and let me go.
November 30 at 2:32am

Drew Tanner: This is the response I received from Walmart:

Thank you for your message.

Dear Drew,

There is no policy against customers carrying their handgun in our stores as long as he/she is legally permitted by their state to carry the handgun.

As a private property owner, Walmart has the authority to ask customers to remove their handgun or leave the store on a case-by-case basis if customers or Walmart associates express concerns about the handgun.

For more information or further assistance, please contact your local stores management for assistance.

Sincerely,
Walmart Customer Care
November 30 at 12:01pm

Drew Tanner: The ASP officers name is Kurt Ziegenhorn.
December 1

John Castle: were you open carrying or just refusing to identify or both? i'm really wondering since i open carried while working in searcy for a couple weeks(not carrying on the clock, while i was off).
December 3 at 5:37pm

Drew Tanner: I was not carrying at all. He came up to me and said "Mr. Tanner, are you carrying today?" and I said "No." Then he asked to see ID and I stated that I did not have to show him ID and I was going to call 911, that's when he put me in cuffs.
December 3 at 5:38pm •

Drew Tanner: If it had been a random uniformed officer that respectfully and professionally approached me when I was open carrying. I have no problem presenting my I.D., as I have with SPD in the past. But it wasn't. I was not carrying, and it was the same ASP officer who assaulted me Saturday night. This wasn't just a "random" stop, he was harassing me.

Drew Tanner: Just received an official letter today from the ASP that my CHCL has in fact been revoked.

[Thumper]

Well, WTF is the actual law there? I tried to look it up and found this:

RKBA Organizations are stating that Arkansas is a Permitless Carry and an Open Carry
State. Those in authority are stating that Arkansas is not a Permitless Carry or an Open Carry State.
Until this issue is decided one way or the other Handgunlaw.us recommends you not Carry concealed
without a valid permit/license or Open Carry even with a valid Permit/License. It will most likely take
the courts to settle the issue!

If this is the case and a final determination has not been made ... I'd say Tanner was in the wrong. He sounds like he's "pushing" the issue and is like those dufes who say it's illegal for the Feds to make us pay taxes.

[Buckrub]

Odd. OK.

[Niner]

I don't see it that way Thump. I'd really like to hear the State's side of the incident, and what led up to the confrontation. From the sound of it this guy is not the only person carrying in that Walmart. The "off duty" trooper had to have had SOME reason for singling out Tanner.

From the information provided, it sounds like the gentlemen has a case and could sue the officer and/or the State Police.

But then, I am neither a LEO nor a lawyer.....and I have never played either on TV.

[Thumper]

All I'm going on is what I read:

I suppose that's what the whole controversy is about ... different people can interpret things different ways. Personally, I'd err on the side of common sense if I didn't know for sure, one way or the other.


RKBA Organizations are stating that Arkansas is a Permitless Carry and an Open Carry State.
Those in authority are stating that Arkansas is not a Permitless Carry or an Open Carry State.

I'd say (IMO) "those in authority" carry more weight in the matter than "Right to Carry and Bear Arms Organizations".

It sounds, to me, like this guy was pushing the envelope to get a reaction ... and he got one. Of course, that's JMHO.

[Chicken Dinner]

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, Thump. I follow a local VA organization (VCDL) on FB and there have been three instances in the past week (two involving a city or county and another involving two deputies) where the authorities were dead wrong on the law. I'm talking about a Chief of Police of a city of 200,000 being forced to publicly apologize and a County attorney being completely ignorant and in violation of an opinion from the State's Attorney General. In the case of the Deputy's they actually told a guy that his CHP only entitled to carry an unloaded weapon and that he was required to disclose he was carrying when stopped. I'm not as passionate as these guys and don't always agree with their methods. However, they tend to be single issue guys and very knowledgeable about what the laws really say.[/QUOTE]

[Thumper]

Well, obviously there's some confusion and I suppose that's what this thing is all about ... ending the confusion. Me PERSONALLY .. as stated above ... would go with status quo if I weren't 100% positive. I guess I just didn't care for his reasoning ... "there's no law AGAINST it, so I'm gonna do it". For something as important as openly carrying a firearm, I'd (again, personally) rather have a law that states I CAN do it.

[Buckrub]

There is a law that some think state just that....Act 746 of the last Legislative session. However, obviously, the 'other side' (including the Democrat AG) think that it doesn't say that. I actually don't read the new law to mean "Open carry any time". I read it to mean if on a journey (defined in the law as crossing county lines, a stupid definition, but still the one stated).

Everyone in the state, or at least the carry guys, want someone to be the guinea pig and test this in court.

In the meantime, I don't see how this (IF IF IF IF IF IF IF it is relayed properly and accurately) can be even related to CCW!!! I mean, the guy was carrying OPEN and did not get arrested. He then came back UNARMED totally, and was cuffed and had his CCW License jerked from him and later officially revoked.

Either we ain't getting the whole story, or someone somewhere is boffo nutsoid. May be me, I dunno........but this is goofus.

And I still want our LEO's to comment if they would...............

[quercus alba]

When you wear a gun in a public business you can expect to draw attention, I don't know what happened or why but if he had left the gun in his vehicle to start with, the point would be moot.

I personally don't want John Q. Public toting guns around in Walmart while I'm shopping there, somebody might snap because they're out of extra large tinfoil hats or maybe their tampon string has a knot in it. I'd druther take my chances in a fist fight than a gunfight.

Probably causes a lot of stress among middle management too.

Don't take your guns to town son
Leave your guns at home Bill
Don't take your guns to town

[Buckrub]

He was unarmed when arrested.

[quercus alba]

I don't have a dog in this fight but even tho you are lawful doesn't mean it's wise. In 1st Cor 6:12 the apostle Paul says "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient". I think this is one of those times. Looks to me like the state police are being a little vindictive but my point was, why carry a gun in a public place where you know it's going to be a problem? Is it legal? yes. Is it a good idea? no. People don't like armed people behind them in the checkout line.

I firmly believe in the right to bear arms but come on. If you feel threatened shopping at Walmart then stick a canister of pepper spray in your pocket. Your wallet is much more likely to be molested than you are. If you insist on flaunting the law, then expect someone to complain. I suspect if you had a machete slung over your back and wore a turban while shopping that you'd have a LEO kindly escort you out even tho it's legal. Just the way it is. The stupid ones have ruined it for everyone else.

[Thumper]

Personally, I don't care for "open carry" anyway. I see it as an "in your face" thing. I remember stating this years ago when Bubbles said (in what seemed to be a bit of a braggadocious way) that she and a group of her buddies all walked into a restaurant after a day at the range with their sidearms carried openly on their hips. I witnessed the exact thing as I was driving a truck and stopped at a truck stop in Virginia ... a group of young men came into the restaurant of a TA there and all were carrying openly. They had a smirk ... or acting smug maybe (?) ... can't really explain it, but the general impression I got was that they were "showing off" in a way and drawing attention to themselves. It didn't make me uncomfortable, it simply made me look down on them a bit as exhibitionists in a way (not sure that's the correct term). There is enough opposition from the non-gun types without stuffing it in their faces. Besides (me personally), I'd much rather carry concealed. If someone is going to mess with me or anyone around me, open carry destroys the element of surprise. If something is planned (take a bank robbery for example) ... I'd rather the perp(s) not sneak up and disarm me from the get-go because the element of surprise was transferred to THEIR favor instead of mine. Of course this is simply MHO and may not fit the majority, I just don't care for open carry.

[Captain]

I feel the exact same way Thumper. And like you I went to eat with Bubbles and Hard Rock once and they opened carried into the place. It was sorta odd. I had my mess hid like I always do and they really got some looks. But to each their own. NC has a open carry law too. But you seldom see it. I cannot figure for the life of me why anyone would want to carry open when they could carry concealed. It just draws too much attention.

[DeputyDog]

I agree with Thump and Cappy on my preference for concealed carry over open carry. I'd rather not have the bad guys know who is armed when they decide to do their business and make them their first target.

I can't really comment on the article without knowing more about what really happened. It kinda sounds like a lot of the other more serious situations that have happened with LE recently. If the person involved would not have gotten an attitude and just done what he was asked, and then complained about it later, it probably wouldn't have escalated to what it did.

I know that in Indiana, it is a misdemeanor to refuse to identify yourself to a police officer when asked to provide an ID, and I will tell you this, if while I'm talking to you, you get an attitude and are not cooperative, and I know that you have been armed in the past, you can bet everything you own that you will be cuffed up until the situation is resolved so that no one ends up getting hurt. A police officer has every right to place someone in "protective custody" and handcuff them while conducting an investigation if they feel the situation is unsafe.

It seems that lately, the perception is that the police have to wait until they are either shot or shot at before they can take any action to protect themselves.

The situation in Cleveland where the young boy was shot while brandishing an airsoft gun is an absolute tragedy and I'm sure the officer involved will never be the same again, but I, and I'm sure most other police officers, have seen countless bulletins where bad guys have altered their real guns to make them look like toys. I guess I'm kinda tired of the media and what appears to be a large part of the population, or at least the most vocal part of the population, portraying cops as a bunch of trigger happy killers who go to work each day hoping to kill someone. I know hundreds of cops and several who have actually shot and killed someone, and none of them wanted to do it and only did it as an absolute last resort.

[Captain]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2296766557537

[Chicken Dinner]

I understand why they do it. They're gun rights "activists" promoting a cause they're very passionate about. Their goal, at least the responsible ones, is to educate the public and, in some cases LEOs, as to the law. Just like most activists, they rub some folks the wrong way and, in some cases, do more harm than good IMO. While I have no interest in open carrying and rarely carry concealed (at least not on my person) even though I have a permit, it doesn't bother me that they do. I actually ran into a guy the other day who was open carrying in a restaurant and I know he thought I was giving him the stink eye. However, I was just trying to see what he was carrying.

[Buckrub]

I appreciate the comments. I wasn't interested so much in a discussion on open vs. concealed carry. I pretty much know everyone's opinions on that already.

I wanted some opinion on why the guy was arrested on the day he was unarmed, totally.........and why the ASP revoked his CCL license anyway....what could cause that?

QA, I was 'accosted' in Walmart not long ago. My piece was in my truck. I bluffed my way out of that, but wish I would have had it with me. Carrying it would have been very expedient on that day.

[Thumper]

I understand why they do it. They're gun rights "activists" promoting a cause they're very passionate about. Their goal, at least the responsible ones, is to educate the public and, in some cases LEOs, as to the law.

I just don't think openly carrying a gun into a store is the correct method to get a clarification. Here's another blurb about the incident. I have a feeling that the confrontation at the start of this thread wasn't the first. This security officer knew the guy well enough to easily spot him when he returned days later (unarmed). The key word I see in THIS article is "persisted".

I'll highlight the parts that jump out to me:

KTHV reports on an open carry advocate who had his concealed carry permit confiscated by a state trooper because he persisted in attempting to carry it openly in a Searcy Walmart.

I see this as "egging the security guy on" ... daring him to interfere with what he ASSUMED was his right. In HIS opinion, he's legally permitted to carry openly.

More of the article:

Legally permitted. That is the rub that remains unresolved in Arkansas.

Is open carry legal? The open carry advocates say it is. They say a 2013 law intended to clear up confusion about carrying a weapon on a journey in Arkansas was written in such a way to legalize all open carry. An opinion from Attorney General Dustin McDaniel said that's not so. A bill to allow open carry was defeated in the same legislative session.

Prosecuting attorneys around the state have differed on the question. Open carry advocates periodically stage marches carrying their strap-ons. Drew Tanner's decision to pack at a Walmart was a singular act.

It will take a court case, finally, to settle the question. Or legislation. Open carry advocates should propose a clean open carry bill for the 2015 legislative session. The vote would provide a clear answer on legislative intent.



That would be the best alternative even if Republican Leslie Ruitledge issues a countervailing opinion on open carry after she takes office as attorney general in January.

[Thumper]

Sorry Bucky, you slipped in as I was addressing CD's comment.

BUT ... when you say "accosted" ... was the encounter serious enough for you to have shot the person? If not, what good would having a handgun on your person done you anyway?

And this guy wasn't arrested ... he was "detained" for questioning. It's obvious he regularly carries openly and seemed to be well known in the store to carry. How was the off-duty cop to know whether or not he'd decided to carry concealed on that particular day?

[DeputyDog]

That was kind of my point. Apparently he has had enough issues at that store that they knew him by sight and he's had issues with that same officer in the past. I know that there are people around where I live that are known to carry a weapon and may not have the best attitude or appreciation for law enforcement, so if I have an encounter with them, I'm going to secure them as fast as I can before they decide to do something stupid. I don't know if they are having a bad day or have decided that they feel that they are wrongly being "harassed" by LE and are going to "do something about it" the next encounter they have.

[Buckrub]

Hmmmm. Well, here's my take.

If I ask you, DD, to show your badge while trying to interrogate me, you better do it. Otherwise, I am going to think you are a Psychopath and possibly shoot you! Geez.

If you arrest me for speeding, I better BE IN A CAR! You can't walk up to me in Walmart and arrest me for Speeding just because I have a driver's license.

That's my two cents.

[Thumper]

Maybe I shouldn't even be commenting as I'll admit, I may be a bit biased. I tried being a cop when I was in my early 20's ... I knew I couldn't stick with it because I ended up believing the world was full of dirt bags. When dealing with nothing but the negative aspects of society on a daily basis, I could feel myself becoming a bit cynical. My decision to drop my desire to be a cop and pursue a different career came on July 4th, 1975. I came close to pulling a "Rodney King" on some asshole drunk I'd arrested that HOT day and knew I'd eventually beat the "F" out of some a-hole, or worse ... and possibly end up in jail myownfineself. I HIGHLY respect LEO's because I can say I've "been there, done that" and know it takes a special person to pull it off. Don't get me wrong, they have their fair share of assholes like any other profession, but they tend to get weeded out in short order.

In fact, I was called in for jury duty about 15 years ago and during jury selection, the defense attorney asked me a question. He said, if there were NO other witnesses and a cop told me something, while "the defendant" told me something totally different, whom would I believe? I looked at his client sitting there in the courtroom and he was what I would call a typical "thug". He happened to be black and judging by his appearance and demeanor, was not new to the system. Profiling? Maybe. But I answered that I'd be more inclined to believe the cop. I was dismissed immediately and did not sit on that jury.

So ... maybe I should just bow out of this discussion 'cause you're probably not going to hear the answer I think you're looking for Buckster ... at least not from me.

[Buckrub]

I am not saying what I would do. I'd do just what you did.

I am not asking for comments on what you would do. I know that already.

Besides, you keep saying, long and hard, that the LEO was in the right because they guy was open carrying in public. Did you not read anything? Did you not read my three separate responses stating that the guy was UN ARMED when arrested??? How is that related to being a dickwad and acting hotshot with an open carry and an agenda???? How???

Good grief.

There is no answer I wanted to hear. I wanted a POLICE OFFICER's opinion of what happened. That's all I wanted.

But there were a lot of other responses, so I finally gave MY opinion..........which I stand by..........you can't walk up to me in Walmart and take away my drivers license for speeding when I'm not even in a car.

[Thumper]

Do YOU not read? How was the cop to know he was unarmed? He was known to carry ... how was the cop to know he didn't decide to carry concealed that day?

[Buckrub]

Good grief.

I think he'd ask.

THEN he'd know.

He did. THEN he cuffed him. THEN he removed his CCL license.

Are you just being obtuse, or need to argue all the time, or what?

Geez man.

Cappy, Pat, LW, someone...........with a badge..........I'd apreciate your thoughts.

[Thumper]

I'm not sure about Arkansas ... but I believe your CCW can be confiscated and suspended while an investigation is conducted to determine if you've violated any rules required to obtain that license. That doesn't mean he won't get it back ... and it doesn't mean he will. That's the way I read it. He decided to push the issue as an "advocate" after the AG already stated open carry is illegal. IMO, LE had every right to confisvcate his CCW whether he was armed at the time or not. You DO NOT have to be physically driving your vehicle to have your driver's license revoked.

You asked for an opinion from a LEO. I WAS a LEO at one time, as stated above. If you want to exclude EX-LEO's ... I suppose you've even weeded out Cappy's opinion. So ... Deppity, you're the only one I know of that can comment here. Just make sure your answer is what Bucky WANTS to hear.

[DeputyDog]

Without knowing all of the facts about what really happened, since the articles provide a lot more of the citizen's version of what happened than the officer's, I'd say that knowing that a person is routinely armed, I'm not going to make the assumption that he isn't just because it's not out in the open. I could just ask him, but surprisingly, I've been lied to a few times by people that I'm dealing with.

Maybe I didn't read the story very good, but did he get taken to jail or just handcuffed? Getting handcuffed and detained is not the same thing as being arrested. Like I said before, if I'm dealing with someone who I know to routinely be armed, and they start with an attitude, I'm going to cuff them up until the situation is calmed down so that I don't get shot, have to shoot someone, or some completely uninvolved third party gets hurt. I have every right to do that and it is not the same thing as arresting someone.

The fact that the officer didn't show him his badge or ID is kind of irrelevant since the guy knew he was an officer from previous dealings with him.

I can't take your license if you are not driving a car, but if you have a history of violations, I can ask the BMV to suspend your license.

In Indiana the only time I can take possession of a driver's license is when a person is arrested for OWI, but they are given a receipt that they can drive on, or they are already suspended and still have a license in their possession. I can't speak for Arkansas, but in Indiana, if you have a concealed carry permit, and start to have run-ins with the police, I can petition the State Police section that issues the permits to conduct a hearing to have your permit revoked, which I have done in the past with a couple people. I'm a supporter of the 2nd Amendment and a life member of the NRA, but the way it is now, carry permits are a privilege granted by the state and not a right, and just like a driver's license, they can be revoked.

[Buckrub]

OK thanks.

Jim, bite me.

[Thumper]

Consider yourself bitten. ;)

[Captain]

NC has open carry as well as CCW carry. NC ALSO has a law that is "going armed to the terror of the public" this mainly addresses people going open carry into places that the very site of a firearm could make films in fear. Like a bank or some such place.
And Thumper I am still a sworn officer. I do all my In-service training and firearms recerts every year. I'm just retired and off the road, so to speak.
Bucky I really wish I could give you an answer you want or even one at all. But I dealt with the media first hand for MANY years and have come to know them as the folks that show up after the shooting is over and executes the survivors.
The officer in this case perhaps overreacted or maybe acted perfectly by Arkansas law. iDK I was not there and I would dare not throw him under the bus. This situation seems to me is why new laws are written and courts are available to everyone, to settle such things.

[Buckrub]

I appreciate it.