We saw American Sniper yesterday ...

[Thumper]

... and I'd have to say, if it's not on your "must see" list, you should make the addition asap.

I have a TERRIBLE habit of picking movies apart. It many times gets to the point I ruin a movie for Lynn as I'm constantly picking out stupid stuff that I call "Hollywood Bullshit"! I can't help myself .. although I've learned to pretty much know when I'm becoming an irritant and to back off a bit. But it gripes the piss out of me that "Hollywood" must think the viewing audience is nothing but a bunch of mindless morons. Maybe a good percentage is, but I sure hope not.

Well, I have to say, my eyes were glued to the screen during American Sniper and I sat pretty much silent throughout the film, but occasionally explaining some things to Lynn ... such as the SEAL tradition of pounding their Trident into the coffin during a funeral, etc.

There's one thing that stood out like a sore thumb though and has me a little perplexed. The movie seemed to demean the "spotters" ... basically making them look like worthless fools and totally unneeded. I couldn't understand the obvious negativity ... and still don't. I do know that although military snipers usually operate as teams (sniper & spotter), SEAL's do not. A SEAL sniper works on his own. Now, in the movie, Kyle was embedded with a Marine unit, so he was teamed with a Marine spotter. I really don't know if the movie was trying to emphasize the fact Kyle was a "Superman" sniper who needed no help or what. Even so, I'm not sure why the movie seemed so demeaning (IMO) when it came to his spotters. Needless to say, it has me baffled and I don't get that part. Maybe I missed something. (?)

Anyway, all in all, I really enjoyed the movie.

[Big Muddy]

We saw it last Friday afternoon, when it opened here.
We gave it a 100% thumbs-up.

[Chicken Dinner]

It's next up on my list.

[johnboy]

Also on my list.

[Fido]

My Bro called me yesterday and said it was the best motion picture he's seen in a long time, and he is quite the critque on movies!

[LJ3]

Jimmy, I hope you are able to keep your thoughts to yourself as other people are watching the movie! Poor Lynn.

Sounds like it's a good'un to see. I've had an eye on it as it was being made. I'ma go see it this weekend in the electric reclining chair, full bar and restaurant service theater!

[BarryBobPosthole]

Its on my list to see, but for some reason I can't put my finger on, I think I'll wait a little bit before I go. Part of it I think is the sheer unfairness of what happened to this guy. I have a nephew who did three tours in Iraq, came home with MS as a result of it and also came home with what I'd call severe PTSD, and had to fight tooth and nail with the VA to get treatment for both. Mind you this was seven or eight years go when he came home and things were a bit different even that recently as far as official recognition of many of the effects the war had on those who served. He is disabled to the point he can't really work in the sense we all think of it, as managing his MS requires him to be able to shutthings down when he needs to. He works pretty hard at helping other veterans get through the 'system' when they need help and is a very active volunteer in Wounded Warriors where he lives in Arkansas. He's also very committed to believing in the right thing. This is an important value I think and its one that a lot of veterans I know share, and I don't mean feeling that way in a general sense, I mean he is committed to it. The average Joe isn't. Hard to communicate that. So he has somethings in common with the real person the movie is about. And when he was killed by a person he was helping, the injustice of it really touched a raw spot in me. I mean, you can't hold the person who did it responible. Can we? Or can't we? It may be that I have to make up my own mind about hat before I see the movie and get to learn about the people that guy left behind.

So I think I'll wait a while. I'm pretty pissed off at whtever so-called loving higher power might have had to do with it too. Kind of hard to thank Him for mercy and protection when there really ain't any.

So that's Bitter Barry on Friday, January Something, 20-retired.

Sorry in advance.
BKB

[DeputyDog]

Yeah, it's a real bitch that God gave people free-will to do whatever they wanted, good or bad.

[BarryBobPosthole]

So do you think that the guy who killed him did it of his own free will? That PTSD wasn't a factor that caused him to do something he normally would never consider doing?

BKB

[DeputyDog]

So I think I'll wait a while. I'm pretty pissed off at whtever so-called loving higher power might have had to do with it too. Kind of hard to thank Him for mercy and protection when there really ain't any.

Sorry in advance.
BKB


My response was to this part of your message.

I believe that people do all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. I've been in LE for 25 years and have personally seen all types of behavior, good and evil, out of people. Sometimes people that I've known to be a relatively "good" person have done horrendous things, and some people that are what you'd generally consider "bad" do some good things.

I know people that are some of the most pleasant and mild that you've ever seen, get a little booze or dope into them, and they are some of the meanest, nastiest people I've ever seen. I've seen people with all kinds of medical or mental issues do all kinds of things that would be considered out of character for them.

As to the last, yes. That guy made a conscious decision (free-will) to pull the trigger killing Kyle. Is it something that he would have done if he wasn't suffering from PTSD, maybe not, but he still made that decision in his mind, whether or not he was in his "right mind" or not.

[Big Muddy]

Yes, Chris Kyle got killed in a merciless manner....but, OMG, look at the tremendous witness, testimony, and legacy he left, and the multitude of people his life has touched....if he hadn't died, and in the manner he died, I doubt there would have ever been such an overwhelming level of honor and respect shown for him and his accomplishments....his death has brought about a lot more good and unity, than his actual life, possibly ever could....his funeral had to be held in a domed football stadium....do you think that would be necessary, if he had died 35 years, from now, of natural causes???

Sorta reminds me of another young guy, a long time ago, who had to die for the worthy cause of saving lives....jmho.

[Thumper]

I'm with you Barry-Bob and have seen it so many times (good dies, evil lives on) and have asked the same question a bazillion times. The old stand-by that I always hated hearing was, "God works in mysterious ways".

NOBODY ever wins the argument (or gives/receives a reasonable answer) ... it just goes on for an eternity.

[Thumper]

There ya' go ... Muddy just gave you one. Kyle became a martyr whether he wanted to or not ... and his kids will grow up fatherless.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Its a pretty fucked up world if you have to die to have your service to other people recognized.

Regardless, I’ll go see the movie when I'm ready to. The other part I'm not so sure about. i'm glad this is black and white for you guys.
BKB

[Big Muddy]

Yep, I was already fully prepared for those comments....that's the reason I ended my post with "JMHO."

[Buckrub]

I don't have any valid input to the sentiments above. I know what I think.

I won't be seeing this movie, though. Now, or later. I decided. Not something I can do. I feel a lot, not totally, like Barry does.

Hard to imagine why anyone would like such a movie. But apparently I'm the single one in America that feels that way, so......... what else is new?

[BarryBobPosthole]

I guess when all is said and done its a movie. And I guess when all is said and done opinions can be powerful things. I happen to love most war movies but I've yet to see a gulf war movie that I can stand to watch. I'm not sure why either.
I take that back. The one about the female chopper pilot is a really good one. That's about it though.

BKB

[LJ3]

Blackhawk Down is a good movie. Great one for the nice sound systems.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Black Hawk Down was really good. And Behind Enemy Lines was another modern war movie that was awesome.

BKB

[LJ3]

I DO know what you're trying to say about the Iraq and middle east war movies though. Something about them puts me off as well. Don't quite know what it is.

[Buckrub]

Well I know what it is. At least for me.

We have no business being there in the first place because you can't 'win via war' against an ideology that isn't going to be beaten. They are never going to adopt our way of thinking, period. Waste of time, but mostly waste of good lives. If we want to go over there, let's go get all of them in the entire MidEast, and let's go because they have a lot of oil that we helped them figure out how to get out of the ground. We can then make them slave-states and make it illegal to practice that insanity that they practice, and it'll go away. If that's not the reason, then fine, let's not go.

But I don't want to watch any movie where a single American soldier lost his life in those hell holes. I honestly don't care what they do to each other, and until they officially ask for help, we need to not go, not televise what happens there, not care.

I realize I'm a jerk for believing that, and feeling that way. That's fine. Whatever.

[Niner]

Spoiler question..........
Does the movie get into Kyle's death, or do they focus on his accomplishments as a Sniper?


POP QUIZ...
Who knows who Carlos Hathcock was without looking it up?

[Thumper]

"Gunny" Hathcock has been my "hero" for many, many years. To be honest, up until this Chris Kyle thing, Carlos would be the only name I could come up with if asked to name a "famous" sniper. I remember well hearing of his death about 15 (?) years ago. Sad day IMHO. (BTW, he was a Marine Sniper in 'Nam).

Back in "the day" ... a confirmed kill was MUCH more difficult to log as official than it is today. I forgot the number of "confirmed kills" he had (just under 100) ... but his actual kills according to him (and his spotter) was something like triple his official record.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I still think if congress or the president wants to go to war, then there should be a war tax collected that covers the cost of the war and pays for taking care of the veterans who come home from it and cares for the families of those who don't. If we are true fiscal conservatives then that's what we should do, pay as we go. And I also think there should be a national defense tax that solely fund defense and Homeland Security so defense dollars are not funded out of the general revenue fund. And we ALL should have to pay it since we all would be protected by it. When we truly know what stuff costs then we might be little more prudent.
BKB

[Buckrub]

Nobody cares what anything costs, Posthole. Not one single person. Maybe me and you. That's it.

We're broke, and it's over fiscally. No fixing it.

But that's a great idea. And while we say that we aren't officially at war, it's political only to say that. That's so you can blame the President for whatever war we're going into. But Congress has to fund those wars, and they always do, and if they want to yammer at the President for starting it, then they need to stop it. Poof.

Nothing works. The whole system is broken in half, destroyed. I honestly don't know how it's hanging together. Glass is not half empty......glass IS empty.

[DeputyDog]

That would be one way to make the general public remember that we have soldiers and Marines fighting and dying somewhere. And maybe not let them drag on for so long. WWII was enough of a hardship at home, we went all out to get it over with as soon as possible, not pussyfoot around and not really accomplish much.

I mean this in no way disparaging to any veterans, but what did we really accomplish in any war since then? We pushed the North Koreans back to where they started from, lost South Vietnam, and done nothing but destabilize the Middle East.

I'm in no way a pacifist or anti-war, but if we are going to get involved in one, we should go in to win it as fast as possible, stay until the country we just destroyed is stable enough we can leave without everything falling apart as soon as we do, and not do it any other way. Absolute victory, unconditional surrender.

[Buckrub]

Sigh.

It'll never be, DD.

To go to war, to dedicate our troops to harm, we need to be ready willing and able to leave that place with grieving widows and burning hulks where buildings were. To do that, we have to be able to identify who the enemy is, and truly define him as an enemy.

We can't do that anymore.

We might end up defining the enemy as a group who's part of our National Diversity, which is to be worshiped above all other things. Assimilation and unity are evil. Whatever group we might fight, well heck.....they're a big group in this country too, so we can't upset them in any way.

Meanwhile all they care about is wiping us out, and view us as vermin and infidels and worthless, far below humans. But we think that if we can only talk to them, that they'll change their ways and come to see our way as the better way.

Poppycock and Balderdash on all of it.

[BarryBobPosthole]

The difference in the conflicts since WWII is that in 99% of the cases our politicians made up the threats that we were supposedly fighting against. Ironically, in WWII we ended up not participating until we'd been attacked on our own soil.

I'm much in agreement with Ron and Rand Paul regardfing using our armed forces. We probably shouldn't ever do it. Ever. At least until the Huns are at the door. This other shit is about money, not security.

BKB

[Bwana]

Niner, read the book and was VERY impressive with Mr. Hathcock or White Feather if you prefer.

[Captain]

Spoiler question.......... Does the movie get into Kyle's death, or do they focus on his accomplishments as a Sniper? POP QUIZ... Who knows who Carlos Hathcock was without looking it up?
I do. Actually knew him and shot with him in the eastern part of NC....

[Buckrub]

Everyone knows who Carlos Hathcock was... Surely.

[Bwana]

Is that true Cappy?!? It would have been so awesome to shoot with someone like him. Did he talk about any of what he did?

[Captain]

Is that true Cappy?!? It would have been so awesome to shoot with someone like him. Did he talk about any of what he did?
Yes
The sniper range at Camp Legeune NC is actually named after him. After he retired he work a lot with police snipers and SEAL snipers training. It was there where I met him. I have one of his books he signed for me around here somewhere.
And yes he told stories, but he never got over the rifle that he shot through the scope to kill the other sniper was stolen from him.
I was also with him at the FBI training academy in Quantio VA some years later. I think we were all hanging out here then and I posted about it. I'm sure it was at the "old" site as that was probably mid 90's (guessing)

[BarryBobPosthole]

Wasn't that story about shooting through the scope in those Marine sniper books they made the movies about several years ago with Mark Walberg? The guy fron Arkansas? Those were great books and they were set right down in the mountains where I grew up.

BKB

[quercus alba]

Bob Lee swagger from blue eye arkansas?

[BarryBobPosthole]

The one and only.

BKB

[LJ3]

Jimmy, I don't understand your deal with the spotter. The dude was on screen like, 5 minutes out of 2 and a half hours. I think he was just the usual war movie character that acts that way. The "whatever, I just want to get home in one piece" guy. I didn't see it as a poke at spotters.

Remind me to never see a movie with you :)

[Thumper]

And a spotter playing games (texting?) or whatever he was doing while his sniper was "working" doesn't stand out like a sore thumb? Okay .... maybe it's no big deal, it's simply one of those things that jumped out at me.

I also stated that SEAL snipers work on their own and "maybe" Kyle dismissed his spotter as "unneeded" ... I don't know. BUT ... if so, that was not brought out in the movie so it made the spotter look like an uninterested and totally disconnected "partner" to me. Sorry if I like reality in my movies ... this one was pretty real IMHO, so tiny flaws kind of jump out at me. Spotters and snipers are teammates and normally have a very close working relationship. My bad.

[Thumper]

Well dang! Looks like I'm not alone afterall. After your post Lenster, I thought I'd see if I could find any mention of it on the net (since I didn't read the book and don't know if there was any explanation there). The FIRST site that came up was some sort of "TV & Movies" geek site where movie nuts hang out like outdoors types hang out here. I swear, this guy's post almost mirrors mine persactly, except for the fact he doesn't seem to be aware that SEAL's normally operate without a spotter.

My quote:

The movie seemed to demean the "spotters" ... basically making them look like worthless fools and totally unneeded. I couldn't understand the obvious negativity ... and still don't. I do know that although military snipers usually operate as teams (sniper & spotter), SEAL's do not. A SEAL sniper works on his own. Now, in the movie, Kyle was embedded with a Marine unit, so he was teamed with a Marine spotter. I really don't know if the movie was trying to emphasize the fact Kyle was a "Superman" sniper who needed no help or what. Even so, I'm not sure why the movie seemed so demeaning (IMO) when it came to his spotters....

Anyway, all in all, I really enjoyed the movie.

And here's the post from the "TV/Movie" site. (I guess I'm not the only one in the world who noticed it.)

I loved American Sniper, but one thing that bugged me was that his spotter was always depicted as a lazy do-nothing. In the real world, snipers work as a two man team and the spotter is just as important as the shooter.

I did not read the book, so I am wondering whether Kyle depicts himself in the book shooting solo and doing his own spotting while his spotter sat around doing nothing OR did the film-makers deliberately change that to emphasize the "heroic" aspect? In other words, did the film-makers not want to show a real spotter because they thought that would take away from the main character and make him seem less heroic if he was just half of a two-man team?

[LJ3]

That there is confirmation bias :) We seek information to shore up our own opinions, searching only for that which is consistent with what we want to believe is true. I'm not judging, everyone does it!

The majority of movie goers have no idea what a sniper team is, no idea what a spotter would do, etc.

Clint could have made a movie that was true to every single military detail and the rest of the country would be wondering what the heck those things were doing in the movie. It's hollywood, dude :)

Seriously, though. I can't think of any war movie that DOESN'T have that same stereotypical character. It just so happened that in this movie, that character was a spotter.

[Thumper]

It's hollywood, dude.

Well, I suppose that's what I hate about movies then ... I sometimes look at them as an insult to my intelligence. ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

sPotTerHeAd

BKB

[Thumper]

Ha ha! Actually, what I was looking for when I searched the net, was to see if there was some "official" mention of the issue ... like maybe Kyle refused to work with a spotter or something. Trust me, the spotter does a LOT for the team and makes the sniper's job MUCH less difficult. A good spotter and sniper team are like a well-oiled machine.

No big deal ... just typical Hollywood I suppose. Stuff like that disappoints me in a GOOD movie ... and this was a good movie IMO.

[LJ3]

Agreed, Hollywood.

I thought the movie was good but it wasn't great. I saw it in imax and that was pretty freaking awesome. The sound is incredible. The cinematography was pretty dang impressive too.