What has happened to the world?

[Buckrub]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/pastor-8-others-fatally-shot-at-church-in-charleston-sc/ar-AAbLntz

What possesses someone to do this stuff? What's going on in the world? I hate tin foil hats, but something is just not right around here......here being "Earth".

Way too much of this to be just a pile of coincidences. Something is amiss.

Sad. Crazy.

[LJ3]

I know the guy was white and shot black people but the only way this is a hate crime is if it's because he hates humans.

Oh, and I know who it is. It's either Dorothy Hamil or Tenile, from Capt & Tenile.

[quercus alba]

I hate the term hate crime. Murder is murder, this is just a term to inspire anger and sell headlines

[Buckrub]

All weapons are assault weapons.
All premeditated crimes are hate crimes.

Stupid words. Meant to obfuscate. Nothing else. Sames as picking "Gay" to mean homosexual. That was a conscious effort to obfuscate what reality is. Same here.

[Thumper]

I agree ... murder is murder. But that said, I do see the difference in the classifications ... although the penalties should be the same.

If I go out and rob your ass, then pop a cap in your head so you won't get a chance to identify me ... that's murder.

If a coupl'a Klan members get together one night and say, "Hey, let's go out and find some niggers to shoot tonight", that's a hate crime. There was absolutely no reason to kill other than some sort of sick hatred.

[quercus alba]

How about a couple of gangbanger wannabes decide to bust off a cap in a white guy for some perceived slight that may or may not have happened. That's not a hate crime, that's misguided justice. I fail to see the difference

[LJ3]

How about a middle-ground term that more accurately reflects the act. Racist murder?

[quercus alba]

If it ain't broke..........

murder

[LJ3]

Looks like they caught the piece of shit. From what I have seen online with pictures, he's a certified racist bitch. I sincerely and honestly would support putting a .45 behind his ear and keeping the justice to the cost of a single .45 ACP round.

He killed 8 or 9 families. The ones that aren't shot dead have been shot in their heart and soul forever.

Piece of shit.

[HideHunter]

Guess they caught the bastard... I don't like the "hate crime" thing either.. especially because it's another that seems to be very "selective" in its definition - or at least its administration..

[quercus alba]

When I think of what a racist bitch would look like, I see Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton

[LJ3]

When I think of what a racist bitch would look like, I see Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton

I can't disagree with that. I have very little tolerance for whatever name tag is proper for a white supremacist, as well.

[LJ3]

I no longer identify as a cracker. I identify as Cheech.

4950

[LJ3]

hehehe, you didn't have to delete your comment! Now I look crazy! (er)

[quercus alba]

Wasn't that, crackers arent supremist, it was the wrong adjective. Crackers are just....crackers. No other way to describe them

[BarryBobPosthole]

I guess all that fuckin shit matters to the people who lost family.


BKB

[quercus alba]

There's 143,000 people die every day.


I'd want revenge regardless of race creed or religion

[LJ3]

I can't imagine how they must feel. What a horrible thing for a family to have to endure.

[Buckrub]

Jim, I get it. I just don't like twisting words to mean wrong things. Yes, some murder is worse, sure.

How about "racially motivated murder". That seems best descriptive. My problem with "Hate crime" isn't you and I and Len and Barry discussing it here. That's sort of minor. My problem is that it induces a full blown classification of crime that needs proof, jury instructions, this and that. For no reason. As Len said.......... just kill him, because he's guilty, and move along briskly. And as QA says, there's a hundred thousand a day or something. Dead is dead. But evil is worse than dying, is my point.........

[BarryBobPosthole]

This is only my opinion and I realize its only worth maybe a nickel, especially here. But worrying over whether this is classified as a hate crime or not is the same as worrying over whether a murder is going to result in more gun control or not. And both, again IMO, it just makes us as shallow as the people who bother to put labels on the types of evil perpetrated on people. All I can visualize in my mind's eye are nine people lying dead in a church sanctuary and it doesn't matter if they were killed by some hateful fucker or not. Its evil incarnate and there isn't nothing we're ever going to legislate or fret over or preach over or pray over that is goingto prevent it from happening next time. It just is what it is. Its BAD.
So if you want to get incensed over whether its a 'hate crime' or not then go right ahead. But I think if you do you've missed the point of the sheer inhumanity of murder if you do.
And this makes me believe even more firlmly that there can't be a loving God if he lets stuff like this happen while people are worshiping in his name and in his house. Shame on him. Maybe he should go back to watching sparrows fall.

BKB

[Buckrub]

Agree with the first, not the last.

Just because a fellow in Owasso doesn't or can't understand something, doesn't make it invalid or wrong. What are you looking for on Earth? Heaven already? No problems? It ain't how He designed it. It's how you and I would have, yes. Evil exists. And it exists in a guy with the name Storm Roof. No kidding, that's his name.

So you want these 9 to stay with you, instead of going home? So it's selfish?? Or you just can't abide that He lets evil exist?

This isn't the final home. It isn't perfect. I don't get it totally either. But that's how it is.

[BarryBobPosthole]

No, I certainly understand that people can be evil and that killing will continue. But I guess I view evil more in a practical sense more than a spiritual one. In other words, when we codify evil we can either take the view that the devil made them do it or that they've broken a societal law that is in the best interest of our species not to break. One view is that its based on hatred that we'll never understand. Another is that its just illogical to allow human beings, regardless of their motives, to kill other human beings. The former leads us to label it in ways we understand. The latter doesn't given a shit.
BKB

[Buckrub]

I don't understand it. I can't.

All I know for a concrete fact is this.............bad things happen to good people, for reasons I can't comprehend.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Sunshine, its pretty easy to give God credit for the good and blame the bad all on the Devil. That's my whole point. None of that makes any sense to me. We're supposed to be created in His image, and given an intellect that allows us to choose good from evil. If God is so loving and all powerful, then why in God's name did he craft some sort of multiple choice test for us in order to earn his grace? It all reeks of a big house of cards created by mankind to fill a gap in our knowledge. To explain away the twinkling stars at night when we couldn't. To explain away the droughts and famines and to explain why evil people do evil deeds. And last of all to ordain men to control other men through fear. If .god is a loving God then why not control us by love instead of fear?

I think God must be a Republican. (Tongue firmly in cheek)

BKB

[BarryBobPosthole]

Sunshine, its pretty easy to give God credit for the good and blame the bad all on the Devil. That's my whole point. None of that makes any sense to me. We're supposed to be created in His image, and given an intellect that allows us to choose good from evil. If God is so loving and all powerful, then why in God's name did he craft some sort of multiple choice test for us in order to earn his grace? It all reeks of a big house of cards created by mankind to fill a gap in our knowledge. To explain away the twinkling stars at night when we couldn't. To explain away the droughts and famines and to explain why evil people do evil deeds. And last of all to ordain men to control other men through fear. If .god is a loving God then why not control us by love instead of fear?

I think God must be a Republican. (Tongue firmly in cheek)

BKB

[BarryBobPosthole]

Hahaha...not sure how that happened! I do get riled up though. Those poor people didn't deserve what they got. And chances are, the guy who killed them won't get what he deserves either. He'll get three squares and a flop and lift weights and watch cable TV,

BKB

[Captain]

That crazy SOB filled his car with gas just below my NC house this morning. At the station where I first met Bubba and his pretty wife.
He is one crazy asshole.
I pray for the families, I'm sure they are living a real nightmare right now.

[quercus alba]

Sunshine, its pretty easy to give God credit for the good and blame the bad all on the Devil. That's my whole point. None of that makes any sense to me. We're supposed to be created in His image, and given an intellect that allows us to choose good from evil. If God is so loving and all powerful, then why in God's name did he craft some sort of multiple choice test for us in order to earn his grace? It all reeks of a big house of cards created by mankind to fill a gap in our knowledge. To explain away the twinkling stars at night when we couldn't. To explain away the droughts and famines and to explain why evil people do evil deeds. And last of all to ordain men to control other men through fear. If .god is a loving God then why not control us by love instead of fear?

I think God must be a Republican. (Tongue firmly in cheek)

BKB




Okay, got to weigh in here. This is a tough question that is very difficult to answer and I'm pretty sure I'm not the right guy to answer it. First off, I do believe in providence but I don't believe that God is as hands on as some like to espouse. Suppose I ger a nice job at Microsoft. Now Bill gates didn't personally hire me, but he was the power behind the idea that became {ok he stole the idea, different discussion} Microsoft. Now Bill Gates didn't buy me a new car or house with a pool in the 'burbs' directly but because of him I am now the proud owner of a nice new mortgage. One day my supervisor wrongfully fires me and I lose the house and the car and my family and I are now living in a cardboard box eating Old Roy. The supervisor gets a written reprimand. Now is Bill Gates to blame for all the misfortune that has befallen me? Was a write up fair justice? Obviously no.

I believe that God put things in motion and therefore I am appreciative toward Him for the things I have, On the other hand I don't believe He struck a man with cancer so he'd retire and I could have his job. Nor do I fault Him for the bad, we're all free moral agents and some choose to follow that is evil.

The discussion for who determines good and evil is another discussion.

One mans opinion, I'm open minded enough to listen

[Buckrub]

Good post.

I blame man more than God. God just established the Game Rules, and threw the ball out, and we're playing. Some are bad and some are not.

[Thumper]

Jim, I get it. I just don't like twisting words to mean wrong things. Yes, some murder is worse, sure.

How about "racially motivated murder". That seems best descriptive. My problem with "Hate crime" isn't you and I and Len and Barry discussing it here. That's sort of minor. My problem is that it induces a full blown classification of crime that needs proof, jury instructions, this and that. For no reason. As Len said.......... just kill him, because he's guilty, and move along briskly. And as QA says, there's a hundred thousand a day or something. Dead is dead. But evil is worse than dying, is my point.........

Well, my internet has been down all day (Verizon can't seem to figure out why), so I haven't been able to chime in. I HATE trying to type on a frigging cell phone! I-net just came up, but I don't know for how long. First off, I agree (and said so in the first sentence of my post) that murder is murder. I believe in "an eye for an eye" also and get sick and tired of pussy-footing around with these assholes for years and years as their attorneys (whom WE are paying for) keep filing for appeals. But, as screwed up as our legal system is, it's still the best in the world.

As for the "hate crime" designation ... I believe the reason for it is to help with the penalties invoked. Like 1st degree murder vs. 2nd degree murder. Should the penalty be the same for going 150 mph through a school zone as going 65 in a 55? They're BOTH speeding, correct? There's a difference between theft and grand theft, a misdemeanor and a felony, etc. etc. etc. I may be wrong, but I believe "hate crimes" demand harsher penalties. So, this sob may get life instead of 30 years for example. I can't agree more that they SHOULD simply plug his pecker into a light socket until he stops quivering, but for some silly reason, we're not allowed to do that.

As for the God argument ... you all know where I stand on that and I can pretty much lean in P-hole's direction. All my life when I've had questions on stuff like this, I always get the blanket, b/s explanation ... "God works in mysterious ways", or "God has a better plan", or "God decided to call so-and-so home for (fill in the blank). I call bullshit. This nut-bag entered God's house and killed HIS people who were there worshipping HIM. I would sure think if God were "real", he'd have found a way to derail this sort of evil. I guess, in reality, He's a weakling and Satan is the one with the real strength.

I just don't get how people buy in to this b/s ... I really don't.

And in closing ... I apologize, I hate feeling this way, but I have a frigging brain and it doesn't seem to be able to figure these things out no matter how many "excuses" are thrown at me.

[Thumper]

I'm not really sure what Satan would want with my size 15 shoes Sunny, but he's welcome to them. ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

When you see the wonders of the world and start to understand the connection of almost everything in it is hard not to believe that there has to be a master plan for it all. I probably personally believe something closer to what Vince describes than I do the whole creation and messiah stories. There's a thousand passion play stories in the history of man. They can't all be true. But I do think its highly likely there is a Prime Mover, so to speak. But the God I'm closest believing in is the one Aristotle and St Thomas Aquinas described, one that is not the creator of everything but actually IS everything. Not animism, but close to it. In other words God is our universe and when we die we just take on a different form within the same infinite structure. It sounds wierder than it is, but that's the Readers Digest version. So when the Bible says he knows when the sparrow falls, it doesn't mean that he knows it in the same way we do, but in fact it is part of him falling if that is an understandable concept. I'm not good at explaining it. The writers of the Bible were pretty smart folks and they codified a lot of human culture and wisdom. We, as a species are masters of our own fates inasmuch as we can make our world our own heaven or hell. That's what I think is meant allegorically in the Bible by the afterlife.
So its complicated. But I'll leave y'all with this little poem by Omar Khayyam (a Muslim, unfortunately for me quoting him on this forum), who was a pretty smart little effer in his own right. It probably is as close to anything in explaining how I think things are.
BKB

“I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell:
And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
And answer'd: 'I Myself am Heav'n and Hell”

[Buckrub]

I hear you. That's not my version. I don't think it's that vague. But that's just me. I am convinced that a Being that could create us all, and everything, would leave us a roadmap to the next life. And it's that "next life" that throws most folks confused belief into tithers. If it exists, how to get there? By your own volition? By following a plan? How closely?

As for Omar, I doubt he was much of a practicing muslim. Islam was trying to get a religious foothold in Persia and the surrounding areas, and India was a big influence on him too. Mohammed was just around a few centuries before, so Islam was still new in 1050. It wasn't the stronghold it is now. And there are historical data about how Omar hated the structured religion that Islam had become. He wrote a bunch against the reigning Imam's. But I suppose he could be claimed by Islam. But Omar also penned, in his additions to the Rubaiyat:

The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Another of my favorites by him! Although I couldn't tell you for sure what it means. On one hand it could be that once we do something, it can't be undone, regardless of the forgiveness of others. On the other hand he could be talking about time marching on and we just have to deal with what the fates give us and move on. Or he could be talking about God. Or maybe he just wanted to be coy and make us think. Prolly not though.

One thing for sure: there is power in prayer. And not in the traditional sense but I believe there are potentials in the human spirit that we only know from the results. I've seen fates seemingly change from people bending their minds to a purpose, i.e. prayer. As for God intervening, I don't believe much in that. if he does intervene, then he's not the loving God we want him to be given his horrible track record. I mean, look at the human history. You really think that's the work of an infinite being who knows all sees all?

BKB

[Buckrub]

My view of Providence is not much the same as most of the Christian world. I doubt he intervenes much at all. However, I do attribute 100% of the 'way things are done' to a system that HE built and designed and implemented, and which is running at this time, and which will stop when HE decides, and a new one will come into play then. And I believe there will be multiple locations for folks to reside in, in that system. And I think what we do now, in this world, affects that decision.

How's that for euphemizing things? :)

P.S.
That said, I pray like a wild banshee. I pray more than anybody you know I betcha. Maybe I'm hedging my bets, I dunno. I am SURE He hears me. I am SURE He listens. I am not sure He responds, at least not where I can notice. And for sure not logically according to my pea brain.

[HideHunter]

But worrying over whether this is classified as a hate crime or not is the same as worrying over whether a murder is going to result in more gun control or not. And both, again IMO, it just makes us as shallow as the people who bother to put labels on the types of evil perpetrated on people. All I can visualize in my mind's eye are nine people lying dead in a church sanctuary and it doesn't matter if they were killed by some hateful fucker or not. Its evil incarnate and there isn't nothing we're ever going to legislate or fret over or preach over or pray over that is goingto prevent it from happening next time. It just is what it is. Its BAD.
So if you want to get incensed over whether its a 'hate crime' or not then go right ahead. But I think if you do you've missed the point of the sheer inhumanity of murder if you do.

BKB

Been thinking about this since I read it last night.. I usually just let you and Bucky squabble among yourselves. ;) But, in this case, I'd like to add - "Bullshit" - being pissed because "someone" thinks they think they have to put a label on it, has no bearing on the compassion one might feel for the victims. And, it *will* be used by the anti-gun advocates and that pisses me off. I agree with White Oak.. "Murder" covers it quite nicely. Not looking for a running argument here - don't have the education, knowledge or staying power. That one just worked under my hide. There.. I'm done.. carry on.. :trainwreck ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

And believe it or not that's kind of my point. Calling it a hate crime from the state point of view is a tactical decision and many times determines the fate of the criminal. And as you pointed out, a dispassionate answer is, to me, the smart way to approach any crime. So murder is murder, and there's no value judgement as to the value of the victims or the 'heinousness' of the crime.

Is heinousness a word? Heinocity? Heinafraglisticexpialadocious?

BKB

[Buckrub]

Good points all!

One more thing I'd change if I was prince of the planet.

"Not guilty by reason of insanity" would be ditched, and replaced with "Guilty, but insane".

[Cards01]

makes sense

[BarryBobPosthole]

Sunny, I wasn't ignoring your jack Graham/Satan post. Its a subject Graham should be familiar with. Do a google search on a guy named John Langworthy and you'll see what I mean. Jack Graham is a fraud.

BKB

[Buckrub]

No, don't think he said that. Or much of anything. But Graham covered up his knowledge of the guy who did it. Reasons unknown.

I need a lawyer because I don't know the civil code to the degree that they do. But I don't need a preacher or a 'priest' because I know THAT law better than most of them. Not bragging, just haven't found one yet that isn't true of. And I'd rather rely on my own view and interpretation of things, and correlation of all of it, than someone else's. I DO listen to their viewpoints though, and I'm sometimes helped by an insight. But in general, all of the time, on all subjects???????? Not so much.

[No-till Boss]

Nearly one year later, Langworthy was allowed to voluntarily resign from Morrison Heights Baptist Church in Clinton.

I was not asked to resign by the pastor or elders, said Langworthy to his congregation on Sunday. My resignation was the best decision for my family.

Dr. Jack Graham, who had just been named Prestonwood s pastor at the time the abuse was discovered, declined comment.