Who's Next????

[Buckrub]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/sandp-cuts-puerto-rico-rating-says-default-seems-inevitable/ar-AAckBRN

[BarryBobPosthole]

they need statehood.

BKB

[Buckrub]

Yes.

But Greece, PR, who's next? When's our turn? Doesn't this prove that debt is actually meaningful and can't be ignored forever?

[BarryBobPosthole]

in PR's case it means that a commonwealth can't exist fiscally. so its either independance and get off the federal teat without paying taxes, or become a state and get on the bigger federal teat but at least pay for it via federal taxes.

In Greece's case, they just can't seem to do anything economically right, rither debt wise or otherwise. Debt is the symptom but may not necessarily be the root of the problem. At least not totally. Seems to their credit rating as much as anything. And that takes several things into account.

BKB

[DeputyDog]

I remember hearing a couple years back that Italy was heading the same way as Greece, and that made the EU even more nervous due to the much larger size of the Italian economy over Greece's.

If auto makers and certain banks are "too big to fail" how does that transfer to countries? Per capita GDP, or percentage of the global economy?

[BarryBobPosthole]

The whole EU is still in the same state of very low GDP growth that they seen since the recession. I mean 1% annual growth and that sucks. Economists piss and moan but US GDP has grown at a relatively healthy rate in the 2-3% range and this year is projected over 3%. Doesn't sound like much but its what fuels countries and keeps all of their debts from overburdening them. Its the part of the Ponzi scheme that has to work or every fountry could end up like Greece.

My main complaint about the US debt is the unfunded stuff we do. I ain't got a problem with social programs but we need to raise taxes when we want to add one. And no fair claiming 'savings' from retiring old ones to justify new ones. That'll never get us anywhere. Same with military, same with wars, same with foreign aid, same with disaster aid, same with everything. Same with health care. You wanna do it? Fine, but pass a new tax or tax increase at the same time you pass the new program to pay for it.
But in the world view we're in a good place economically. At least for now. Not the dire circumstances some would say we're in.

BKB

[Nandy]

get off the federal teat without paying taxes
BKB

and whos fault is that the island dont pay taxes?

[Captain]

and whos fault is that the island dont pay taxes?

IDK. Let's blame it on SCOTUS! :D

[Buckrub]

Well I don't give a rat's ass.

[Nandy]

No taxation without representation, the Island does not have representation therefore dont pay taxes.

I like bucky's answer!!!!

[Thumper]

I've been avoiding this issue because I just don't know enough about it to make an intelligent statement AND I really don't want to step on Nandy's toes or be disrespectful in any way. BUT ... that said, I do follow Puerto Rican politics due to the fact so many of them live in Florida ... probably very close to or maybe even more than the number of Cubans. I do know that there are more Puerto Ricans living in the United States than there are in Puerto Rico. (They can acquire resident status and have voting rights, etc.) I also had a very close friend for many years who was Puerto Rican and I've visited the island personally. From what I observed (VERY unscientific), the islanders could care less about adopting the American system.

What chaps my ass just a little bit is the fact almost every President since the 40's has supported making Puerto Rico a state, but the Puerto Ricans preferred their Commonwealth status. Alaska and Hawaii became states ... Puerto Rico preferred to stay with what they had. We send something like 40 Billion $$$ in aid to Puerto Rico every year and they pay no taxes ... why would they want to change that deal? What do we get in return? I can remember more recent history and the option of statehood has been offered to Puerto Rico at least three times (that I recall), but they voted it down every time. Ha! Who could blame them? They have their cake and can eat it too! The unrest has been coming for the past few years and they want "change" ... they just don't know what change they want. Personally, I believe they still want to eat that cake, but really don't want to start paying for it. They just held a vote a couple years ago that asked the question if they wanted to continue with status quo (as a Commonwealth). There was that question on the ballot, then the next question was what they wanted if not a Commonwealth (statehood was one of the options). For the first time EVER, there was a majority vote to drop their Commonwealth status, but the part of the ballot that asked what alternative they preferred was left blank by all but about 40% of the voters, so there was no majority.

My honest belief is, the more educated and progressive Puerto Ricans have already left the island and are living/working on the mainland. The one's who oppose change and bettering themselves ... (not even bothering to learn English), prefer to stay on the island and receive government hand-outs. (sound familiar?) No taxes paid, but 1/3 of the country receives food stamps (much handed out in cash, so there is no accountability) and don't forget the Federal Aid for housing subsidies, etc.

Unemployment is around 13% these days and the economy has tanked ... now all of a sudden they're shouting "statehood" after 60-70 years of wanting nothing to do with it. The poverty rate for the adult population runs about 45% in Puerto Rico right now. Obama is a HUGE supporter of statehood ... I wonder why? IMO, Puerto Rico would become a "welfare state" and receive even more benefits than they do now, with no appreciable return to the US economy. And we all know what political party a welfare state would most likely vote for, correct? Mark up two more Congressional seats on the Demo side!

Sorry to be a Debbie Downer on this subject, but some of it just sticks in my craw.

[Captain]

I've been avoiding this issue because I just don't know enough about it to make an intelligent statement.

When has that ever stopped you in the past. :D ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

Nandy, the issue is really a matter of PR wanting to maintain their Commonwealth status I thought. PR get like 24 billion in US aid qnd pays no federal income tax. So haul the freight, become a state, and PR'll be in the same wonderland the rest of us are!

BKB

[Sunshine]

We don't need Puerto Rico's freeloaders too.
No disrespect to you Nandy.

There's enough ALL race freeloaders, in this country, we don't need to take another countries too.

[Thumper]

Well, they're really not "another country" Sunny.

[Thumper]

Oh, and I almost forgot ... BITE ME Cappy. ;)

[Captain]

Caught that did ya' :D

[Sunshine]

I know Puerto Rico is a Common Wealth Territory of the USA. But for me they are so far away, it's like another country.

[Thumper]

And what about Hawaii? ;)

[Buckrub]

So is Washington state.

[Sunshine]

I know I know. :)

[BarryBobPosthole]

They're really far away and they're all deadbeats on welfare. Man, I really learned a lot today!

BKB

[Sunshine]

I did not say they were all deadbeats.
I said we didn't need anymore freeloaders. There's enough here.

[Buckrub]

One third of Puerto Rico is on food stamps. Annual cost to us is $2 Billion dollars. It's paid in cash, so they actually spend it on anything they want.

The Molina family subsidize the rest of the island.

[Thumper]

Ok, I see P-hole's bleeding heart Liberal slip showing. MY issue is, while they were receiving billions of our tax dollars for food stamps, welfare, subsidies, etc. ... and their economy was holding it's own ... they wanted nothing to do with statehood. Now that the economy has crashed and they are an even bigger liability than before, they are all of a sudden screaming statehood ... which would mean even more $$$ to be pumped in. Sure, then they would be required to pay taxes, but with rampant unemployment and an economy in the toilet, they'd RECEIVE more than they'd contribute. Like I said, nothing more than a welfare state. Just what we need right now. The irony of it chaps my butt a little.

[Sunshine]

You just said what I been saying!!!!! Sheesssh They were also given 5 choices in December 1998 as to what they wanted to do with Puerto Rico. 5002 As of 1994 this is where they were at.

[BarryBobPosthole]

All I ever said is that if they were a state their federal taxes would cause a re-examination of some of the unpaid for social programs they have now. And as a state they'd certainly pay more of their own freight than they are now.

BKB

[Nandy]

Neither of you need to walk on eggs worrying about offending me. I have learned to disagree in a civil manner.

My point always has been that PR has to be it's own sovereign state or be a USA state. That commonwealth status was supposed to be a temporary status. It is really up to the USA (the ones in control) to say to PR either you are in or you are out, PR government does not have the legal power to do either. The island could have a referendum right now and the pro statehood faction win by 91% and still the USA does not have to grant them statehood status. As far as I recall, the "referendum" was to see if they wanted to take a vote on statehood, not the vote itself. Again, it is on the USA government to put a stop to all that, so y'all need to talk to the congress about it. OR just say "I don't give a rat's ass."

BTW, you get taught English since kinder garden, by high school you English class is all in English with mostly English natural speakers, from the moment you walk thru the classroom door until you leave, college, just the same. I did not learned English when I moved here. Whoever says that they dont talk English either is not comfortable speaking it, never went to school or plain lying to you.

[Thumper]

Or old and don't give a rat's ass. ;) The majority of the educated are in the States.

Nandy, the statehood thing has been something that every U.S. President has wanted since the 40's. The people of PR never wanted it and always wanted to remain a Commonwealth. This last referendum was the FIRST time in the history of PR that they have wanted to come off of Commonwealth status ... BUT, they could not come up with a majority for what they wanted their status to be. It's like, we want more ... but we don't want the responsibility (or expense) of statehood. Right now, the general concensus in PR is, they no longer want Commonwealth status, but they do not know what status they prefer. Odd the timing of their change of heart coincides with the tanking of their economy. I say, either shit or get off the pot.

[Buckrub]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/the-puerto-rico-crisis-explained/ar-AAcpN7g

[Thumper]

Thanks Buckster ... I pretty much (loosly) follow PR politics, but updates help from time to time.

[Nandy]

Or old and don't give a rat's ass. ;) The majority of the educated are in the States.

Nandy, the statehood thing has been something that every U.S. President has wanted since the 40's.

I dont know where you get that but I guess I have to believe it. If hey had strongly feel that way they would have demanded a decision from the island is my point.

Keep in mind, this is a situation created by the Government of PR, the entity that the people of the island elected and entrusted to make the decisions that will benefit the island. That government failed to act on the tax situation. I know I was there and it had been all over the place, what will it be from the Island once 1998 hits and the tax exception to the big corporations ended and we have an exodus of those companies with all the jobs. Heck, the factory I worked on left a year right after I left, I lived what I am talking to you about....

We had a 2 time ex governor spent years talking about what would happen and how there was no stopping it and how the island needed to adapt... He was damned right but every other elected governor did not wanted to be the one making the hard decisions that could jeopardize his re-election or his party.... they keep hopping they could extend the tax exemptions....

This is no more than the government fuckup, it is not the general public marching down the street demanding money be sent. Most of the population probably dont understand what is going on...

Good thing my parents are set up and dont depend directly on government help. And the day shit hits the fan I will just pluck them out of the island whatever they like it or not.