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View Full Version : Hmmmm, a REAL what'cha think read ...



Thumper
07-20-2015, 10:23 AM
... I know what the "feel-good" answer is ... which I suppose is the "right" answer ... or is it? Even though this came from a forwarded email and I haven't verified it's authenticity, it still got my juices flowing. I guess it's one'a those "damned if you do and damned if you don't" scenarios and basically promotes leaving their fate up to "natural selection" (one of Darwin's five theories). At any rate, it has me doing some soul searching and is pretty thought provoking IMHO. What'cha think? (long read, sorry)

A confronting insight - by Kevin Myers

Kevin Myers (born 30 March 1947) is an Irish journalist and writer. He writes for the Irish edition of the Sunday Times, having previously been a columnist for the Irish Independent and a former contributor to The Irish Times, where he wrote the "An Irishman's Diary" opinion column several times weekly. Until 2005, he wrote for the UK Sunday Telegraph. His articles criticise left-wing opinion and the "liberal consensus", sometimes incorporating hyperbole, sarcasm and parody. This essay recently appeared in The Irish Independent:

Somalia is not a humanitarian disaster; it is an evolutionary disaster. The current drought is not the worst in 50 years, as the BBC and all the aid organisations claim. It is nothing compared to the droughts in 1960/61 or 73/74. And there are continuing droughts every 5 years or so. It's just that there are now four times the population; having been kept alive by famine relief, supplied by aid organisations, over the past 50 years. So, of course, the effects of any drought now, is a famine. They cannot even feed themselves in a normal rainfall year.

Worst yet, the effects of these droughts, and poor nutrition in the first 3 years of the a child's life, have a lasting effect on the development of the infant brain, so that if they survive, they will never achieve a normal IQ .. Consequently, they are selectively breeding a population, who cannot be educated, let alone one that is not being educated; a recipe for disaster.

We are seeing this impact now, and it can only exacerbate, to the detriment of their neighbours, and their environment as well. This scenario can only end in an even worse disaster; with even worse suffering, for those benighted people, and their descendants.
Eventually, some mechanism will intervene, be it war, disease or starvation.

So what do we do? Let them starve? What a dilemma for our Judeo/ Christian/Islamic Ethos; as well as Hindu/Buddhist morality.
And this is beginning to happen in Kenya, Ethiopia, and other countries in Asia, like Pakistan. Is this the beginning of the end of civilisation?

AFRICA is giving nothing to anyone outside Africa -- apart from AIDS and new diseases. Even as we see African states refusing to take action to restore something resembling civilisation in Zimbabwe, the begging bowl for Ethiopia is being passed around to us out of Africa, yet again. It is nearly 25 years since the famous Feed The World campaign began in Ethiopia, and in that time, Ethiopia's population has grown from 33.5 million to 78+ million today. So, why on earth should I do anything to encourage further catastrophic demographic growth in that country? Where is the logic? There is none.

To be sure, there are two things saying that logic doesn't count. One is my conscience, and the other is the picture, yet again, of another wide-eyed child, yet again, gazing, yet again, at the camera, which yet again, captures the tragedy of children starving.

Sorry. My conscience has toured this territory on foot and financially. Unlike most of you, I have been to Ethiopia; like most of you, I have stumped up the loot to charities to stop starvation there. The wide-eyed boy-child we saved, 20 years or so ago, is now a low IQ, AK 47-bearing moron, siring children whenever the whim takes him and blaming the world because he is uneducated, poor and left behind.

There is no doubt a good argument why we should prolong this predatory and dysfunctional economic, social and sexual system but I do not know what it is. There is, on the other hand, every reason not to write a column like this. It will win no friends and will provoke the self-righteous wrath of, well, the self-righteous hand wringing, letter writing wrathful individuals; a species which never fails to contaminate almost every debate in Irish life with its sneers and its moral superiority. It will also probably enrage some of the finest men in Irish life, like John O'Shea, of Goal; and the Finucane brothers, men whom I admire enormously.

So be it. But, please, please, you self-righteously wrathful, spare me mention of our own Irish Famine, with this or that lazy analogy.
There is no comparison. Within 20 years of the Famine, the Irish population was down by 30%. Over the equivalent period, thanks to western food, the Mercedes 10-wheel truck and the Lockheed Hercules plane, Ethiopia's population has more than doubled.

Alas, that wretched country is not alone in its madness. Somewhere, over the rainbow, lies Somalia, another fine land of violent, AK 47-toting, khat-chewing, girl-circumcising, permanently tumescent layabouts and housing pirates of the ocean. Indeed, we now have almost an entire continent of sexually hyperactive, illiterate indigents, with tens of millions of people who only survive because of help from the outside world or allowances by the semi-communist Governments they voted for, money supplied by borrowing it from the World Bank!

This dependency has not stimulated political prudence or commonsense. Indeed, voodoo idiocy seems to be in the ascendant, with the president of South Africa being a firm believer in the efficacy of a little tap water on the post-coital penis as a sure preventative against AIDS infection. Needless to say, poverty, hunger and societal meltdown have not prevented idiotic wars involving Tigre, Uganda, Congo, Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea etcetera.

Broad brush-strokes, to be sure. But broad brush-strokes are often the way that history paints its gaudier, if more decisive, chapters.
Japan, China, Russia, Korea, Poland, Germany, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the 20th century have endured worse broad brush-strokes than almost any part of Africa. They are now -- one way or another -- virtually all giving aid to or investing in Africa, whereas Africa, with its vast savannahs and its lush pastures, is giving almost nothing to anyone, apart from AIDS.

Meanwhile, Africa's peoples are outstripping their resources, and causing catastrophic ecological degradation. By 2050, the population of Ethiopia will be 177 million; the equivalent of France, Germany and Benelux today, but located on the parched and increasingly protein-free wastelands of the Great Rift Valley. So, how much sense does it make for us actively to increase the adult population of what is already a vastly over-populated, environmentally devastated and economically dependent country? How much morality is there in saving an Ethiopian child from starvation today, for it to survive to a life of brutal circumcision, poverty, hunger, violence and sexual abuse, resulting in another half-dozen such wide-eyed children, with comparably jolly little lives ahead of them?

Of course, it might make you feel better, which is a prime reason for so much charity!

But that is not good enough. For self-serving generosity has been one of the curses of Africa. It has sustained political systems which would otherwise have collapsed. It prolonged the Eritrean-Ethiopian war by nearly a decade. It is inspiring Bill Gates' programme to rid the continent of malaria, when, in the almost complete absence of personal self-discipline, that disease is one of the most efficacious forms of population-control now operating. If his programme is successful, tens of millions of children who would otherwise have died in infancy will survive to adulthood, he boasts.

Oh good: then what? I know, let them all come here (to Ireland) or America (not forgetting Australia!).

... AND THEY KEEP ARRIVING IN THEIR THOUSANDS ACROSS THE MEDDITERRANEAN TO A EUROPE THAT CAN HARDLY LONGER AFFORD TO ACCOMMODATE THEM!!!

Buckrub
07-20-2015, 12:19 PM
This is very interesting. I will answer this post IF you honestly answer two questions for me.

What do you think certain antagonists here at this site would respond if I had posted this?

Why do you think those folks don't respond to you in the same way?

Thanks.

airbud7
07-20-2015, 01:00 PM
That was a real eye opening story... interesting...

Thumper
07-20-2015, 01:09 PM
This is very interesting. I will answer this post IF you honestly answer two questions for me.

What do you think certain antagonists here at this site would respond if I had posted this?

Why do you think those folks don't respond to you in the same way?

Thanks.

Number one ... not many here bother to read a long post like this. Number two, I never really offered MY opinion but DID say it's one of those "damned if you do - damned if you don't" scenarios.

Number three, don't you ever get tired of playing Joe Btfsplk all the time?

http://www.jamesrpeterson.com/.a/6a00e54ef85fc488340191043befdd970c-pi

Buckrub
07-20-2015, 01:14 PM
You know what? That's about offensive. Why do you do that?

I was going to engage in a post YOU started, and have a conversation, IF you'd honestly answer two simple questions I had. But you don't want to, you want to hammer me for something, instead.

I'm glad it tickles you to do that, rather than have intelligent conversations. You fit right in! You post stuff like this, asking for a fight so you can buy tickets and watch, and then have the audacity to criticize me for asking perfectly valid questions.

Go have discussions with yourself.

Harumph.

Thumper
07-20-2015, 01:34 PM
What do you think certain antagonists here at this site would respond if I had posted this?

Why do you think those folks don't respond to you in the same way?

I think you're leaning toward a differnt type of discussion.

Buckrub
07-20-2015, 02:02 PM
I don't know what that means.

I just know that I get tired of being called names and labelled........for simply wanting nothing more than fairness in this venue.

But when I ask for it, you raise the hammer, and hit me as much as you can. Reason? Totally unknown. There are apparently just folks here that I rub the wrong way simply by existing. I can't think of any other reason for the responses I get.

What I said is simple. If I had posted the very same exact post that you did, the responses would not have been either silent or a simple discussion. I'd have been hammered as a racist. Or worse. By you, and others. You know that but you won't seem to admit it.

Thus, I asked you to answer why you thought that was so, before I was willing (which I was) to engage in a discussion that YOU started.

How is that a different direction? How is it invalid? And it ain't "Joe Bltsflk". I don't particularly CARE what you think of me. I'm just observing it and pointing it out..........and constantly wondering what the flip I did to deserve it all?

LJ3
07-20-2015, 02:16 PM
How about we not make it about ourselves and offer an opinion on the opinion piece? Bucky I think you're exaggerating how you get treated here. I'm not judging, I have plenty of my own issues that affect me and my relationships.

To the question posed.

For me, I'd feel a lot better if there was conditional aid to that type of country. There's a part of me that thinks the world should let them reap what they have sown. But I couldn't abide by that unless I never looked what what was happening or dehumanized those who would perish. Not a very kind thing to do.

Maybe the answer is to provide aid with conditions that prohibit making the existing problems worse.

HellifIknow.

Back to arguing, you two.

Buckrub
07-20-2015, 02:21 PM
Len, thanks. I always value your views, period.

I don't think I am exaggerating how SOME treat me here.........Jim for one. I am not blind, I don't think. Or crazy. I simply have to type a few words, and I get "Your schtick is getting old". I mean, WTFO??????

CERTAINLY, not everyone does that! I did not mean to imply. I get emails quite the contrary to some things writen here.


I am unsure what I think about Africa.

Thumper
07-20-2015, 02:31 PM
Sheeeesh Bucky! You need to change your avatar to a pic of "Debbie Downer". YOU are the one who went off on a tangent and pursued this subject. Are you just fishing? Comment or don't. WTF?

Big Muddy
07-20-2015, 02:32 PM
Actually, Thump, someone emailed me that same article, a couple of years ago....being the Dixie country boy here, I didn't post it because I knew I'd prolly get lambasted....the guy has a point, however.

Thumper
07-20-2015, 02:37 PM
I see both sides ... but in this day and age, what he suggests would never, ever happen. Much like Airbud's post about forced birth control for Welfare recipients.

BarryBobPosthole
07-20-2015, 02:40 PM
The guy has a point ,but it totally misses a lot of what the real point is. Europe and the UK pretty much fucked up Africa beyond all belief starting with the Napoleonic Wars and going right up through to WW II. Just look up about anything on the Boer Wars, WW I and the Versailles Treaty, and so on. I don't think the US had much grossly negative shit do with it if you don't count invading it in WWII and our never fail policy of helping the wrong people. And the invasion in about anybody's book was actually liberating big parts of it from European overlords. So in short, the world that fucked it up owes it to Africa at least to try to help put some semblance of order back into it. Its not 'evolutionary' whats happened there unless you want to totally ignore what outside influences, mostly European, have done to Africa. And that's not a guilt trip, that's simply the facts, ma'am.

BKB

Thumper
07-20-2015, 02:48 PM
Where do you draw the time-line? We can revert back to the other thread about slavery. When does the "you did this to me back in (insert year here), so we'll be fucked up forever if YOU don't change it" mentality end and "personal responsibility" kick in? Just wondering. 20 years? 50 years? 100 years?

BarryBobPosthole
07-20-2015, 03:00 PM
I don't know what the timeline should be. I just know we ain't reached it where Africa is concerned. Look how long apartied lasted in 'rhodesia' as a result of British influence there.

BKB

Thumper
07-20-2015, 03:38 PM
What's that Greek proverb? "God helps those who help themselves"? As the author above writes:

Even as we see African states refusing to take action to restore something resembling civilisation in Zimbabwe, the begging bowl for Ethiopia is being passed around to us out of Africa, yet again. It is nearly 25 years since the famous Feed The World campaign began in Ethiopia, and in that time, Ethiopia's population has grown from 33.5 million to 78+ million today. So, why on earth should I do anything to encourage further catastrophic demographic growth in that country? Where is the logic? There is none.

Again, how long should the rest of the world wait .. and support these "do nothing" countries? It's like our own Welfare system here at home, people don't work because they don't need to ... there will be a check in the mail, so why bother?

Buckrub
07-20-2015, 03:40 PM
Those who feel high guilt will continue to wish for unending funding for those who 'need' it. "Why" they need it is immaterial to them, and opposition to that belief will get you labeled as mean and uncaring.........and fulfilling the need 100% will only result in a further raising of the level of 'need'.........

There is no end to the slavery of welfare. And it has never done anyone one iota of good, to the contrary.

BarryBobPosthole
07-20-2015, 04:36 PM
Then let 'em rot and die I guess. All the while proclaiming we're the most advanced society in the world. For that matter, in the christian belief, in the Universe. I guess that's what nations with their laws and beliefs based in Judeo Christian principles do, eh?

Fuck 'em if they can't keep up.

BKB

Buckrub
07-20-2015, 04:38 PM
Geez man.

Can you argue with me without indignant sarcasm?????

Or am I simply an innate idiot unworthy of higher thought to you?

Buckrub
07-20-2015, 04:43 PM
And can you get your higher intelligent head around one fact, please??? There are actually sentient beings who strongly believe that philanthropy and charity are wonderful things and worthy of doing, but NOT FOR THE GOVERNMENT?

Why do you jump a man for the mere suggestion that GOVERNMENT not be the provider of crap like welfare? Why do you take a leap into belief that such a man doesn't believe in charity at all?

And you want me to argue with you sensibly??????

BarryBobPosthole
07-20-2015, 05:28 PM
That article says not one word about government anything. Its an Irish writer bemoaning ANY aid to those countries. The only aid mentioned was that provided by Bill Gates.

BKB

Buckrub
07-20-2015, 05:35 PM
What? No, but YOU DID in Post #18. You claimed I was advocating letting people starve in violation of every Christian principle by not wanting government welfare. That ticks me off. That's a false accusation of what I think.

I can want the poor taken care of, WITHOUT wanting the Government to do it. But the first time I say one word about government welfare being the equivalent of slavery, you hammer me like a 16d nail in an old cypress board! You do that for one reason!!! You cannot envision any method for feeding the poor other than government welfare, so the first guy that come out against it, you claim he's a jerk and evil and mean and against all that is good and proper!!! That is wrong, and it torques me to be so labeled!!

And I stand by my statement.........government welfare has enslaved more of humanity than American 1800's slavery ever did.

And I stand by my other statements........that you need to argue with me without all the indignant sarcasm and labeling me as evil cause I don't see government's role the same as you.

Thumper
07-20-2015, 06:02 PM
That article says not one word about government anything. Its an Irish writer bemoaning ANY aid to those countries. The only aid mentioned was that provided by Bill Gates. BKB

ONLY Bill Gates? Well, not really ...


Japan, China, Russia, Korea, Poland, Germany, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the 20th century have endured worse broad brush-strokes than almost any part of Africa. They are now -- one way or another -- virtually all giving aid to or investing in Africa


It's just that there are now four times the population; having been kept alive by famine relief, supplied by aid organisations, over the past 50 years.


It is nearly 25 years since the famous Feed The World campaign began in Ethiopia...


I have been to Ethiopia; like most of you, I have stumped up the loot to charities to stop starvation there.

No, he does not mention GOVERNMENT aid directly, but you know darned well governments send aid to Africa ... including our own. A quick Google came up with this: (I'm sure current numbers are probably higher, I just grabbed the first thing that came up)

In 2012, the United States provided nearly $12 billion in official development assistance to African nations ... Currently, the United States allocates foreign aid to 47 African nations and USAID operates 27 missions on the continent ... US Foreign aid to Africa began in the 1960s as many African nations gained independence...

That's pushing 60 years ... like I asked before, where do you draw the line? When is enough, enough? Of course, I'm not nieve enough to think we (the US) doesn't expect something in return ... but do you REALLY think we're getting any bang for our buck?

To be honest, when I read this article I was baffled by how much one side of me agreed with the writer, but the other side of me was a bit turned off by his views. While reading, I coudn't help feeling like Larry in the movie "Animal House" after Clorette passed out on the bed. He had a devil on one shoulder (his evil conscience) and an angel on the other (his good conscience).

Larry's evil conscience: Fuck her. Fuck her brains out. Suck her tits, squeeze her buns. You know she wants it.
Larry's good conscience: For shame! Lawrence, I'm surprised at you!
Larry's evil conscience: Aw, don't listen to that jack-off. Look at those gazongas. You'll never get a better chance.
Larry's good conscience: If you lay one finger on that poor sweet helpless girl, you'll despise yourself forever... I'm proud of you, Lawrence.
Larry's evil conscience: You homo.

I think the difference between what's right and what's wrong all depends on which angle you choose to look at it. Being from a civilized nation, what's "morally right" usually wins out. In the above article, the writer stated he knew how controversial his article would be ... to be honest, I feel a LOT like "Larry" on the subject and don't know which "shoulder" to listen to.


There is no doubt a good argument why we should prolong this predatory and dysfunctional economic, social and sexual system but I do not know what it is. There is, on the other hand, every reason not to write a column like this. It will win no friends and will provoke the self-righteous wrath of, well, the self-righteous hand wringing, letter writing wrathful individuals; a species which never fails to contaminate almost every debate in Irish life with its sneers and its moral superiority. It will also probably enrage some of the finest men in Irish life...

Captain
07-20-2015, 06:10 PM
"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it." Adrian Rogers

No-till Boss
07-20-2015, 08:50 PM
I know a guy who's been over there for years trying to grow rice. I heard this weekend that he will have his grain complex completed this year. I fully expect to see his head on a stake before Christmas .......