What do y'all think of this?

[BarryBobPosthole]

http://youtu.be/YZGueeao0tE

[BarryBobPosthole]

And just for backup info, here's some deeper info on it. If you go to the link, it'll show you who the lobbyists are, and who the sponsors are in Congress and some good insight on what the bill is about. A handy link for just about any congressional bill.

BKB

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2015/07/three-times-as-much-agribusiness-money-on-average-for-house-members-voting-to-bar-gmo-labeling/
Three times as much agribusiness money, on average, for House members voting to bar GMO labeling
by Alex Lazar on July 24, 2015

(AP Photo/Damian Dovarganes)
(AP Photo/Damian Dovarganes)
Thursday’s House passage of a bill that would keep states from requiring genetically modified foods to be labeled was a big — and not at all close — win for agribusiness and food and beverage interests.
The Safe and Accurate Food Labeling Act of 2015, known to its critics as the DARK (Deny Americans the Right to Know) Act, sailed through by a vote of 275 to 150. While the bulk of its support came from the GOP and most of its opponents hailed from Democratic districts, the vote didn’t break cleanly along party lines. Among its 107 sponsors were 92 Republicans and 15 Democrats.
But a more telling predictor of where lawmakers came down was the amount of support they’d received from interests with a stake in the legislation.
For example, the campaigns of Reps. Collin Peterson (D-Minn.), Frank Lucas (R-Okla.), Rodney Davis (R-Ill.), Mike Conaway (R-Texas) and Kurt Schrader (D-Ore.), all cosponsors of the legislation (most of whom also sit on the House Agriculture Committee), received six-figure dollar amounts from providers of agricultural services and products — one segment of the agribusiness sector — during the 2014 election cycle. That put them high among the top 20 recipients of funds from the industry.
Cosponsors such as Reps. David Valadao (R-Calif.), Steve Fincher (R-Tenn.), Devin Nunes (R-Calif.) and Kevin Cramer (R-N.D.) aren’t on the Agriculture Committee, but nevertheless pulled in six-figure dollar amounts from the crop production and basic processing industry (another part of agribusiness; think Cargill Inc. and the National Corn Growers Association) during the midterm cycle — landing them among the 20 members who received the most from that industry.
Reps. Mike Pompeo (R-Kan.) and G.K. Butterfield (D-N.C.), two original sponsors of the legislation, were the top two current House members receiving the most money from the Grocery Manufacturers Association in 2014. The grocery manufacturers — who have spent $4.1 million lobbying on all issues so far this year, almost as much as they spent in all of 2014 — have lobbied on the bill more than any other organization, mentioning the measure on 14 lobbying reports this year.
After the Grocery Manufacturers Association, PepsiCo Inc ($2.5 million in overall lobbying this year) and Monsanto Co ($2.6 million) have mentioned the bill most frequently.
All told, the 230 Republicans and 45 Democrats who voted to pass the bill collectively received over $29.9 million from the agribusiness sector and food and beverage industry during the 2014 cycle, or about $108,900 per member. That’s nearly three times as much as the average $38,977 per lawmaker drawn by the 138 Democrats and 12 Republicans voting nay. Their cumulative contributions from the interests came to $5.8 million.
For all the election cycles since 1990, more than $115.1 million has gone to those who voted for the legislation this week (with an average of $418,644 per member), compared to almost $25.8 million for those who voted against it ($171,785 per member).
With numbers like those, anti-labeling advocates may be giving a whole new meaning to the term “cash crop.”
Doug Weber contributed research to this post.

Categories: Congress Influence & Lobbying Issues and Legislation Politicians & Elections

Tags: agricultural services and products, alex lazar, Collin Peterson, crop production and basic processing, dark act, david valadao, Devin Nunes, Frank Lucas, G.K. Butterfield, gmo, Grocery Manufacturers Association, House Agriculture Committee, Kevin Cramer, Kurt Schrader, Mike Conaway, Mike Pompeo, monsanto, pepsico, rodney davis, safe and accurate food labeling act, Steve FIncher
Alex LazarAlex Lazar is the summer 2015 reporting intern for OpenSecrets Blog. He is a graduate of George Washington University. His previous articles have been published by various news organizations including The Hill, ABCNews.com and The Huffington Post.

Follow Alex | Read all of Alex's posts
Comments (Comment Guidelines)

[No-till Boss]

Lot of uneducated hickory-nut cliche's in that video .

[BarryBobPosthole]

A lot of the anti GMO stuff is that way. Considering the millions spent on lobbying by the industry, I'll accept that. Regardless, I still think there is some validity in the issues.

If GMOs are as safe as they say, then why is there hesitancy to simply label food that is genetically modified? Why is less information better for the grower and/or the consumer?

BkB

[No-till Boss]

A lot of the anti GMO stuff is that way. Considering the millions spent on lobbying by the industry, I'll accept that. Regardless, I still think there is some validity in the issues.

If GMOs are as safe as they say, then why is there hesitancy to simply label food that is genetically modified? Why is less information better for the grower and/or the consumer?

BkB

Assuming you're concerned with food safety, where would you go, and what would you get to fix, that is safe in your opinion ?

[Thumper]

I think some of it is for the same reason it's ridiculous for MacDonald's to be forced to pay for printing, "Caution - Contents Are Hot" on their coffee cups.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Assuming you're concerned with food safety, where would you go and what would you get to fix me something that's safe in your opinion ?

I have a couple concerns about GMO's specifically and big agri businesses in general. First, I think where GMOs are concerned, the jury won't be in on them for some time to come. I don't trust what the people with the most money at stake would tell me about them and the other side is oftem big on emotion and short on facts. I think I am in the majority in saying I don't know whether GMOs are a godsend or a curse. That partly why I asked the question. But it nags at me that there are tens of millions of dollars being spent to simply sway the congress to make GMOs less visible. I can't find the motivation for that. There's no really huge anti GMO movement or lobby. Where there's money, you quite often find assholes.

On huge agribusiness, my main issue is our monoculture approach to agriculture is raping our farmland. There's a lot of scientific fact behind that and we need to be pushing towards a better approach. I'm no environmentalist or anti, I'm just saying we are fucking up our farmland at great speed and we are setting ourselves up for a potato famine like event that will change the way we view food and agriculture completely. Our vulnerability to agri science and sabatage by other countries is wide open.

And that's what I think about that.

BKb

[No-till Boss]

You still didn't tell me what you're eating that is so healthy ?

We're not fucking any farm ground up, that is a totally stupid misconception. Our soils and conservation practices are at a all time high ! We as farmers, can not take the chance of not protecting our investment, which is our soils and water.

The only vulnerability we have in agriculture is not being able to keep new technologies coming at a pace that is needed for new chemicals and new diseases. Which can only be solved by creating new GMO's.....

[BarryBobPosthole]

I never said I was eating anything that was healthy. I'm not sure what the damn question even is.

And I understand the sensitivity completly. I am not attacking farmers at all and I really do have a pretty good level of understanding what is going on in agriculture. Certainly not anything near what you know, given your experience and life in it. Again, thats why I asked for opinion. If your opinion is that everything is peachy then I value that opinion. If I disagree with it doesn't make me a dumbass, it just makes me unconvinced since I really havent heard what you specifically think of the topic of GMOs and Monsanto's agressive litigious way of eliminating competition and spending lots of money to influence our congress.

BKB

[Buckrub]

There's a lot of scientific fact behind that and we need to be pushing towards a better approach. I'm no environmentalist or anti, I'm just saying we are fucking up our farmland at great speed and we are setting ourselves up for a potato famine like event that will change the way we view food and agriculture completely.

What a wild-assed assertion. Exactly what on earth are you basing that on? I don't know who YOUR "we" is, but OUR "we" is doing just the opposite to "our" farmland.

I really havent heard what you specifically think of the topic of GMOs and Monsanto's agressive litigious way of eliminating competition and spending lots of money to influence our congress.


"aggressive". You're welcome. And what is Verizon doing to eliminate competition and spending money to influence Congress??
https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s
Verizon is in the Top 15, Monsanto isn't. Pick on the right guys.

As to what I think about GMO? I have no idea. I trust my wonderful US Government through their USDA arm to tell me what is right and wrong for me to eat. After all, Government bureaus such as this exist to help us, right?

[No-till Boss]

I never said I was eating anything that was healthy. I'm not sure what the damn question even is.

And I understand the sensitivity completly. I am not attacking farmers at all and I really do have a pretty good level of understanding what is going on in agriculture. Certainly not anything near what you know, given your experience and life in it. Again, thats why I asked for opinion. If your opinion is that everything is peachy then I value that opinion. If I disagree with it doesn't make me a dumbass, it just makes me unconvinced since I really havent heard what you specifically think of the topic of GMOs and Monsanto's agressive litigious way of eliminating competition and spending lots of money to influence our congress.

BKB

We're not gonna fight the GMO battle until you establish what all these things you're eating that you think are safe.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Well help me understand what you mean by safe. Do you mean nutritionally safe or do you mean safe from killing me or making me sick due to some difference between the real McCoy and what I'm eating?

BKB

[No-till Boss]

Well help me understand what you mean by safe. Do you mean nutritionally safe or do you mean safe from killing me or making me sick due to some difference between the real McCoy and what I'm eating?

BKB

Safe is your word, not mine. I'm not concerned with anything I'm eating. You're the thread starter .......

[No-till Boss]

Why is less information better for the grower and/or the consumer?

BkB

I wanna go back to this, Why should I be for labeling of food, when thee no price incentive for me ? Right now, I'm getting the same prices for my commodities as they did 50 years ago. If you wanna add more stipulations to my game, then add value/subsidies accordingly.

[Thumper]

Sounds like a bit of a sore spot has been hit here NTB. Personally, I don't worry too much about this sort of stuff in this country. I think we do a pretty good job of policing ourselves and I'm not much of an alarmist. Barry Bob, I can understand where you're coming from, but think of it this way ... how many cigarettes did you smoke that came out of a package with the Surgeon General's warning printed on the side? Is the fine print on that package what made you quit?

[No-till Boss]

Sounds like a bit of a sore spot has been hit here NTB. Personally, I don't worry too much about this sort of stuff in this country. I think we do a pretty good job of policing ourselves and I'm not much of an alarmist. Barry Bob, I can understand where you're coming from, but think of it this way ... how many cigarettes did you smoke that came out of a package with the Surgeon General's warning printed on the side? Is the fine print on that package what made you quit?

It's like this, we don't ever get thanks for growing the safest,cheapest and the most abundance food in the world. But everytime there is a news event about food saftey, agriculture (which is already regulated to hell) has to stop and do damaged control. Agriculture is not in the habit or the bussiness of killing it's customers.

It's funny how no-one thinks a thing about putting someone else's genitals in their mouth, yet they're concerend about their foods labeling ......

[BarryBobPosthole]

I worked in the telecom industry for forty friggin years. Nobody ever told me thanks for providing a way to call grandma,or the police, or go to an ATM. If you're looking for gratitude rrom Americans for doing something that you make your living at, you will be, like you apparently are, disappointed.

And for the record, asking for someone's opinion about something is not an attack. Sure, I recognize the 'anti' make life hard with theor blather. But this isn't anti GMO blather. What I asked about was two simple acts by congress to do basically two things in agriculture: remove the requirement to label foods that contain GMO organisms, and the other is to remove country of origin labeling for chicken pork and beef products.

But since you brought it up agriculture has not always produced the safest food possible. Not the safest for people to eat, not the safest for the environment, and not the safest for the overall health of the financial markets that drive the whole industry. Granted, agricultural practices have improved greatly as we have learned, most times the hard way, but don't give me the apple pie farmer story and try to bluff me away with a bunch of defensive bullshit. Farmers are some of the hardest working people in our country. They do produce the goods we need to survive, not only as a nation, but as a human species. For that reason, we need to protect farming not only as a business but as a way of life in our country. Again, if you think protecting the Monsantos and Archer Daniels Midlands of the world and that they will do those things then that is a very valid opinion. After all, you are one of those farmers I am talking about. But just because I don't share your opinion doesn't mean I should just go away. As a consumer of your products, I deserve the chance to make the choices that I believe are the safest for me. If I want to avoid products from countries that don't have Bucky's beloved USDA ensuring they don't feed animal parts or that conduct agricultural practices that are not sustainable, then no matter what you thinkabout those practices, I should have the information about that product that I need to make the decision based on my criteria. If I want to avoid GMOs, i need that information available. Is GMO labelling costing you money in your business? I'd like to hear your answer on that. All I've gotten is some semi insulting blather about putting someone's genitals in my mouth. If that's what you intended, then I'm not the one that's the cocksucker here. i'd also really like to know what you meant by that remark.
But back to the topic. Thumper, GMO labelling is not a warning like on cigarette packs. Its simply information. You, who couldn't or wouldn't cook yourself a hamburger, probably don't pay attention to labels. I'll bet five bucks Lynn sure as hell does. it may not worry you to buy and food that somehow got here from a country thousands of miles away where it was grown in human shit as fertilizer. It may not bother you but I will avoid it.

Finally, farmers are important but true farmers are getting more and more scarce. We're already seeing super weeds that are a result of roundup ready GMO crops. Those weeds now potentially threaten native species. Is that what you mean by 'safe'? Is the answer always better chemistry? I, admittedly don't know the answer to that question. But getting defensive about a discussion about it doesn't provide any answers.

BKB

[BarryBobPosthole]

Sunshine, We've tried to buy meat and produce that we know comes from farms in our region vs from another coast or another country. Removing labelling that prevents us from doing that takes that choice away, IMO.


BKB

[No-till Boss]

I worked in the telecom industry for forty friggin years. Nobody ever told me thanks for providing a way to call grandma,or the police, or go to an ATM. If you're looking for gratitude rrom Americans for doing something that you make your living at, you will be, like you apparently are, disappointed.

BKB

There is a little difference than something you HAVE to have versus something you need.

[No-till Boss]

Sunshine, We've tried to buy meat and produce that we know comes from farms in our region vs from another coast or another country. Removing labelling that prevents us from doing that takes that choice away, IMO.


BKB

You still haven't told us what you're eating that you're so proud of ! WTF ! spill your diet and let's talk about, ole deflector of shit !

[No-till Boss]

I call bullshit on this too !

But since you brought it up agriculture has not always produced the safest food possible. Not the safest for people to eat, not the safest for the environment, and not the safest for the overall health of the financial markets that drive the whole industry.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I guess you never heard of the Dust Bowl, where agricultural practices were a big contributor in the total collapse of agriculture and farming. Or the big Chicago meatpacking scandals that were leading to big outbreaks of illness and death, or of the listeria outbreak from canteloupes grown right here in the USA, or any of several other food safety issues. And that's just the US. If you look abroad its even worse.

Again, you avoid answering a direct question. What are the current labelling practices doing to hurt your business? Why is less information about the food we eat better? Why so much money poured into it and are these lobbyist for these big corporations representing you, the real farmer? Are these things you want or they want?

bKB

[No-till Boss]

Another horseshit assumption !

Finally, farmers are important but true farmers are getting more and more scarce. We're already seeing super weeds that are a result of roundup ready GMO crops. Those weeds now potentially threaten native species. Is that what you mean by 'safe'? Is the answer always better chemistry? I, admittedly don't know the answer to that question. But getting defensive about a discussion about it doesn't provide any answers.

Farmers are getting better and better, the bad one's don't make, very few poor farmers still exist and won't very long.

Nothing in being threatened, that's more media hype. There is always going to be "super" weeds, roundup was created for a reason, we had super weeds that needed new technology. And there will be need technology again, and again after the life cycle of that product, you'll hear the same sky-is-falling bullshit that has been spewed since the media was created .

[No-till Boss]

I guess you never heard of the Dust Bowl, where agricultural practices were a big contributor in the total collapse of agriculture and farming. Or the big Chicago meatpacking scandals that were leading to big outbreaks of illness and death, or of the listeria outbreak from canteloupes grown right here in the USA, or any of several other food safety issues. And that's just the US. If you look abroad its even worse.

Again, you avoid answering a direct question. What are the current labelling practices doing to hurt your business? Why is less information about the food we eat better? Why so much money poured into it and are these lobbyist for these big corporations representing you, the real farmer? Are these things you want or they want?

bKB

The dust bowl was created by weather changes, but after that, almost a 100 years ago now, things were put into place to make sure that never happens again. I think given the weather over west Texas and other mid west states that is was a huge success .

The cantaloupe thing happened on 1 farm, sure it was bad, but they still found the source and made the proper steps to make sure it never happens again.

You're the one not answering questions......and you know why !

[BarryBobPosthole]

I see. Its all media hype.

Thanks, that's the answer I was looking for!

BKB

[Buckrub]

Bucky's beloved USDA

HAHAHAHA
That was blatant sarcasm, directed at the ugly redhead who has spent 15+ years telling me at ever possible turn, how great all those government agencies are, and how beneficial to our lives they are, and how we need them, and how my attitude of "government sucks" is bad, and how I'm not smart enough to see the real picture.........

And now, here's a perfect example of my concern over a government agency, the USDA, and the same ugly redhead can't for the life of him admit that they're letting food go down his gullet that is bad for him (his concern, not mine).

I laugh at all this.

But........I happen to own a farm. SO........while I hear that ugly redhead saying he isn't attacking, I see through that, and know that he is. I even called him on it, many posts ago.

But........I am so happy. SO HAPPY! There is someone else that will argue with same ugly redhead udder dan me!!! I'm so happy I'm going to read the last paper I'm willing to pay for.........and watch the Cardinals!

Now, back to your regularly scheduled argument.

[BarryBobPosthole]

No, I'm all done. and I'm not sure where you get any of that. I guess you're a poor reader. I have no reason to be critical of farmers. I AM critical of farming and where it is going in the United States. But we can't discuss that dcause y'all gentleman farmers get your panties in a wad and make claims like the ones in this thread.

Be happy!
I am!
And put up anpther mailbox! You'll make twice the money with two govern,ent checks!

BKB

[No-till Boss]

No, I'm all done. and I'm not sure where you get any of that. I guess you're a poor reader. I have no reason to be critical of farmers. I AM critical of farming and where it is going in the United States. But we can't discuss that dcause y'all gentleman farmers get your panties in a wad and make claims like the ones in this thread.

Be happy!
I am!
And put up anpther mailbox! You'll make twice the money with two govern,ent checks!

BKB

Farmers are the ones who farm, you can't be critical of the direction of farming, and not be of farmers.

[Buckrub]

No, I'm all done. and I'm not sure where you get any of that. I guess you're a poor reader. I have no reason to be critical of farmers. I AM critical of farming and where it is going in the United States. But we can't discuss that dcause y'all gentleman farmers get your panties in a wad and make claims like the ones in this thread.

Be happy!
I am!
And put up anpther mailbox! You'll make twice the money with two govern,ent checks!

BKB

You're funny.

A) I get no government checks.

B) Here's some things you said. YOU and THEM (you know, THEM) can decide if you think these words are 'attack' words or not:
raping our farmland
we are fucking up our farmland at great speed
setting ourselves up for a potato famine like event

Clearly, I think those are pretty much attacking somebody.........

C) You also said:
If I disagree with it doesn't make me a dumbass
BUT, apparently your mirror is a one way mirror! Cause if we disagree with YOU, then you say this:
But we can't discuss that dcause y'all gentleman farmers get your panties in a wad and make claims like the ones in this thread.

SO............. you read this post and tell me where I am off base, wontcha?

[No-till Boss]

Be happy!
I am!
And put up anpther mailbox! You'll make twice the money with two govern,ent checks!

BKB

I'm probably gonna have to respond to this...... but I'm trying not to.

[Buckrub]

Go ahead. When you 'win', he just disappears.

Been fighting it for years. He never loses an argument.

Course, he's never right, so.............um..............

But, back to the original question..........I think if you believe in evolution, you believe that YOU are a genetically enhance organism. No? If you don't want to eat one, don't. If you don't care, eat away. If you can't figure out which they are, start your own farm. Do it however you want. But this ain't Frankenstein stuff, and I think Posty thinks it is..........at least his words here say he thinks that.

So, my direct answers to his original questions are:
* I eat whatever I can find. I eat mostly organic, carbon based items. I eat a LOT of them. If they smell bad, I don't eat them.

* I think the REAL bug in his saddle is another hammer thrown at Archer Daniel Midlands and Monsanto (his REAL enemies, for many years, along with Halliburton).......and this was a way to get that done. I pointed out that he's a hypocrite, to a small degree, for singling them out when his employer is far worse......but..........oh well.

[No-till Boss]

I find it odd how people fire a shot and never even try to understand what they're talking about. Broccoli is widely considered one of the most healthiest of sides, offered in almost every restaurant I've ever been in. Yet, in the beginning of time, they was no broccoli, it's a genetically modified food. Oh yeah, most vegetable and fruits are too, without DNA help over the years, most would disappear because of diseases and such.

I will say this, one place where people flock to, to buy what is presumed to be healthy is Farmers Markets. What people DON"T understand, is this is some of the ONLY food you will put in your mouth that is NOT regulated. You question what I produce, which takes years and years to ever bring to market, but you stand in line to buy that big pretty stuff that has no regulations on it. Ever hear the phase, if it looks to good to be true it probably is ? If there is money involved, someone is cheating, and its the same with food. So eat that big yellow squash from the road side stand......lol

[Buckrub]

Nah, I'll pass. I might throw up the good stuff I just ate.

[Thumper]

I don't really have a dog in this fight and I have to admit, I don't get too carried away with worrying about what I stuff into my pie-hole (that does NOT include MALE genitalia BTW!). I "should" be more concerned probably because I'm as big as a house, but one of the only passions I have these days is enjoying good (tasting) food. If it tastes good, I don't worry too much about how healthy it is ... otherwise I'd have to give up cherry pie and ice cream, something I'm not willing to do. I ate healthy food for two straight months in the hospital. NO THANKS! If that's what I need to eat to be "healthy" ... sorry, I think I'd rather die. This argument has no end ... you can eat healthy, but if that diet includes meat, you're poisoning yourself as far as a vegetarian is concerned. So, you become a vegetarian and the vegans tell you you're poisoning yourself! Sorry, there's some poison I really enjoy ... let me enjoy it.

As for the labeling? Personally, I could give a rat's ass ... if it looks good, smells good and tastes good ... I'll most likely eat it. No, I'd better retract a portion of that statement ... with my history of food choices, I'll take that back and simply say if it TASTES good, I'll eat it! But even that is subjective, oysters gag me, I can't stand Brussels sprouts and IMO, anybody who can drink buttermilk right out of the carton like my grandfather did, needs to be institutionalized. That said, many people love what I hate and vice versa. Back to labeling ... where do we draw the line with this stuff? I rely on the FDA and the USDA to do a reasonable job of protecting me. (I KNOW that'll bring up an argument, but you have to live within reason). I don't want to read 187 pages of bullshit to decide whether or not I want to eat an egg from Cal-Maine Foods ... I just want to fry a frigging egg or two to go with my cholesterol laden bacon and highly buttered toast!

Anyway, this post DID force me to try to better understand what the issue is here. Me? I think it's much like the people who refuse to vaccinate their kids. The world is a MUCH better place due to genetic engineering IMHO and GM crops.

I did find a very interesting article that pretty much hits on both sides of the issue. You guys can argue about it if you want, but like I mentioned previously, I could give a rat's ass! :D

This link leads to an interesting article I think:

http://12.000.scripts.mit.edu/mission2014/genetically-modified-crops

[Buckrub]

Well, as long as you butter your toast AFTER it's browned, we are amazingly on the same page.

I should worry more than you. A L.A.D. M.I. should wake me up. All it did was make me try to see the bottom of my bucket and read the whole list.

Just ate some homemade ice cream. It would have been MUCH better if my lovely wife would have remembered the paddle! But some of the top was edible, and the grandson loved it. But hey, I used Eggland Eggs!!! Look at me go!

I still think the underlying issue is not GMO, but certain lobbyists. But either way, my rat is not wearing diapers either.

[No-till Boss]

Quackwatch
www.quackwatch.com/

[Thumper]

Ha ha ha! Really Sunny, for someone who is overly paranoid by something as simple as being quoted here, it's hard to take you seriously sometimes when the whole subject is, for the most part IMO, based on paranoia.

I clicked on your video and within the first two seconds, I stopped it (besides, it's a frigging hour and 20 minutes!). Why did I give up so fast? The FIRST thing I saw on my screen was "Produced by Gary Null"! That fruitcake is a nutbag to begin with, so you're not furthering your cause much.

From wiki:

Gary Michael Null (born 1945) is an American talk radio host and author who advocates for alternative medicine and naturopathy and who produces a line of dietary supplements.

His views on health and nutrition are at odds with scientific consensus; psychiatrist Stephen Barrett, co-founder of the National Council Against Health Fraud and webmaster of Quackwatch, described Null as "one of the nation's leading promoters of dubious treatment for serious disease".

On his radio show, and in books and self-produced movies, Null criticizes the medical community, promotes a range of alternative cancer treatments, denies that HIV causes AIDS, and promotes dietary supplements which he produces.

In 2010, Null reported that he and six other consumers had been hospitalized from vitamin D poisoning, after ingesting a nutritional supplement carrying his name and endorsement. Null sued a contractor involved in producing the product, alleging that each contained more than 1,000 times the dose of vitamin D reported on the label.

Null was raised in Parkersburg, West Virginia, with his two brothers. He holds an associate's degree in business administration from the 2-year, for-profit Mountain State College in Parkersburg, West Virginia and a Bachelor's degree from Thomas Edison State College in Trenton, New Jersey.

Null holds a Ph.D. in human nutrition and public health sciences from Union Institute & University, a private distance-learning college headquartered in Cincinnati, Ohio. Null's doctoral thesis was entitled "A Study of Psychological and Physiological Effects of Caffeine on Human Health".

His credentials, including the degree-granting practices at Edison State and the rigor of the Ph.D. program at Union Institute, have been questioned by Stephen Barrett on his Quackwatch website, who labeled Null as "one of the nation's leading promoters of dubious treatment for serious disease" and a fraud.

Null attacks many facets of mainstream medicine, arguing that physicians and pharmaceutical companies have an economic interest in promoting rather than preventing sickness. In the 1979-80, he co-authored a series of articles on cancer research for Penthouse, entitled The Politics of Cancer beginning with one entitled "The Great Cancer Fraud." Null's writings in Penthouse accused the medical community of "suppressing alternative cancer treatments to protect the medical establishment's solid-gold cancer train." In place of standard medical therapy, Null advocated alternative cancer treatments such as hydrazine sulfate. A series of three articles co-authored by Null in Penthouse is credited by David Gorski with bringing the Burzynski clinic to prominence. In 1985, Null began writing a lengthy series of reports for Penthouse entitled "Medical Genocide". In 1999 TIME wrote of Null: "From a young reporter this is to be expected. But two decades later, Null, 54, is still warning of a variety of medical bogeymen out to gull a trusting public."

Null was the keynote speaker at a rally opposing mandatory H1N1 influenza vaccination during the 2009 flu pandemic, leading the New York State Department of Health to dismiss Null's claims about the vaccine as "not scientifically credible." The New York State Health Commissioner held a conference at the time of the rally to discuss the clinical trials which were used to demonstrate its safety.

In addition to his promotion of alternative cancer treatments and condemnation of the medical establishment, Null has argued that HIV is harmless and does not cause AIDS.[3] In his book AIDS: A Second Opinion, Null advocated a range of dietary supplements for HIV-positive individuals instead of antiretroviral medication. In 2002, Salon.com described the book as "massive, irresponsible and nearly unreadable."

Seth Kalichman, professor of social psychology at the University of Connecticut, has decried Null's role as a prominent proponent of AIDS denialism and has accused him of cashing in on HIV/AIDS; in Kalichman's 2009 book, Denying AIDS, he compared Null's activities to Holocaust denial and described Null as an example of a dangerous entrepreneur who "obviously breached" the balance between free speech and protecting public health.

Null began broadcasting a syndicated radio talk show, Natural Living with Gary Null in 1980. His show was broadcast first on WBAI, then on the VoiceAmerica Network and over the internet. Null's show subsequently returned to WBAI, leading to protests from ACT-UP New York and other AIDS activist groups concerned by Null's promotion of AIDS denialism. He continues to host The Gary Null Show through the Progressive Radio Network, which he established in 2005.

Null has made several self-funded and self-produced documentary films on public policy issues, personal health, and development. His videos have been aired by PBS during pledge drives, but have since been banned, which in 1999, led to a surge in sales of Null's books and for record fundraising for the stations.
Concern arose within PBS over the videos' sensational claims with the Seattle affiliate cancelling a planned rebroadcast and Ervin Duggan, the president of PBS, expressing concern that by showing Null's videos, the network was "open[ing] the door to quacks and charlatans. "Null received a "best director" nomination for his documentary Chew on This: Dangers of the American Diet Exposed at the 2014 Red Dirt International Film Festival.

In 2010, Null reported that he and six other consumers had been hospitalized for vitamin D poisoning after ingesting a nutritional supplement manufactured for his line of supplements by a contractor. In a lawsuit against the company, he alleged that the supplement erroneously contained more than 1,000 times the dose of vitamin D reported on the label.

The Los Angeles Times wrote that Null's experience "should give pause to anyone lured by the extravagant claims of many supplements makers", and said that it was common for dietary supplements to contain doses "wildly different than those indicated on their label" as a result of weak regulation.

[Thumper]

Ha! I see NTB already posted the quackwatch site. (great minds think alike) ;)

I didn't read through it, but I'm assuming Null is included in there somewhere.

[No-till Boss]

Explanation reference, I guess my demographic audience was too old.

I said, it's funny that most have no worries about having oral sex, but you need a label to put a piece of america's fine home grown produce in your mouth . How y'all got the homo reference out of that is by me.

[No-till Boss]

Sunny, there is a good chance you can't buy anything that hasn't been modified. If you'd like to list your favorites foods, I'll be glad to point them out for you.

[Buckrub]

I always eat as much as I can from the Four Main Food Groups:

Red Meat
Milk
Grease
Twinkies

[Buckrub]

Speaking of which..........and my family used to sell milk out of a little store...........

When did milk get to where the expiration date is like 10-12 days out? It used to be 3 days. If that's engineering, that's good stuff. Now I can buy 2 gallons when I go to the store and won't have to go back for a few days!!!

[BarryBobPosthole]

I hung around for 28 posts and got nothing but smartass responses, and no answers other than defensive responses that I was dissing our blessed farmers by asking simple questions about our whole agricultural system. I guess as a taxpayer whose dollars go into the billion a year spend on direct federal subsidies to rice growers and a casual buyer of rice products, which I limit buying US rice because of the non organic arsenic levels being higher than most other nations in the world's products, doesn't make me a person who deserves any straight answers other than that.

The questions are really straightforward. Thumper ansered. Sunshine answered. bucky spouted something that doesn't directly relate to anything I asked but that's okay too.

Carry on. Now you're really having a conversation! Now I've been compared to an antivaxxer! This is interesting!

BKb

[No-till Boss]

Speaking of which..........and my family used to sell milk out of a little store...........

When did milk get to where the expiration date is like 10-12 days out? It used to be 3 days. If that's engineering, that's good stuff. Now I can buy 2 gallons when I go to the store and won't have to go back for a few days!!!

Have you noticed you can now buy unpasteurized milk in Arkansas now ? Straight off a farm ! I helped lobbied against it but it passed easy....

[No-till Boss]

I hung around for 28 posts and got nothing but smartass responses, and no answers other than defensive responses that I was dissing our blessed farmers by asking simple questions about our whole agricultural system. I guess as a taxpayer whose dollars go into the billion a year spend on direct federal subsidies to rice growers and a casual buyer of rice products, which I limit buying US rice because of the non organic arsenic levels being higher than most other nations in the world's products, doesn't make me a person who deserves any straight answers other than that.

The questions are really straightforward. Thumper ansered. Sunshine answered. bucky spouted something that doesn't directly relate to anything I asked but that's okay too.

Carry on. Now you're really having a conversation! Now I've been compared to an antivaxxer! This is interesting!

BKb

There is no direct subsidies to rice farmers anymore.

[Buckrub]

Hey! You changed subjects several times, I can too!!! You went from GMO being healthy or not to government subsidies to lobbying, to .........geez. You're hard to keep up with! I'm doing best I can..........given what I have to work with.

[No-till Boss]

Don’t rely on an “organic” label—rice grown organically was found to have the same arsenic levels as “conventionally” grown rice. While organic rice may contain fewer pesticides, arsenic levels are still high.

[Buckrub]

OH, and there are NO DIRECT SUBSIDIES TO RICE FARMERS, you dweeb! See why it's so hard to argue with you?

[BarryBobPosthole]

I honestly wasn't sure how that turned out in the new farm bill. I thought they'd just traded direct payments for much higher subsidized crop insurance, and I know there was a big argument over whether that'd be cheaper or more expensive I just couldn't tell you which is correct. Its direct money either way if you stop sending me a check but pay for my mortgage and make sure my house stays appraised at competitive values, you're still giving me money. And it ain't free.

I know there are pros and cons to subsidies and I know you compete in a world market where your competitors are backed by very non-competitive practices. Look at friggin Thailand. But getting anyone associated with farming to have a respectful and meaningful conversation on this site for some reason is damned near impossible.
And it really doesn't help when you are told you're too ignorant to have a conversation with and that's the reason you're getting the shiv.

But suit yourself. And I hope you every success. Nobody wins if farming fails for any reason.

BKB

[Buckrub]

You're not too ignorant. You're just too biased. That's my opinion. But I do enjoy having fun wid ya at times.

Still, I know what I think and I don't change my opinion of things just cause someone says a word or two. And embedded in my flippant responses is my real belief. I simply don't care, and I still think you're more miffed on lobbying than truly wishing to discuss farming.

[Thumper]

I laugh at much of this "organic" craze these days. It reminds me of my days in California. I have a buddy out there whose wife will buy NOTHING but organic foods and he complains to me that it's putting him in the poor house! I remember sending him an article I read around the end of last year (I think) that said studies have shown the eggs of "free range" chickens are more prone to be contaminated than caged chickens because caged chickens aren't exposed to all the poop (from other critters as well as their fellow chickens!). I haven't followed it, but regular eggs are expected to double in price out there because the Californicators actullay voted to make caged chicken production illegal! Sheeesh!

I'm sure the same arguments could go on and on with other things. Heck, half the fish down here have elevated levels of mercury. But, I won't even go there. The point is, there are two sides to every story and non-regulated items in the food chain aren't always a good thing.

Edit: This "might" be the article I sent my buddy ... I remember it was close to Christmas because I slipped a copy into the Christmas card I sent ... but I didn't realize it was 2012! Time flies!

http://feedstuffsfoodlink.com/story-are-organic-eggs-safer-healthier-74-71784

[No-till Boss]

I honestly wasn't sure how that turned out in the new farm bill. I thought they'd just traded direct payments for much higher subsidized crop insurance, and I know there was a big argument over whether that'd be cheaper or more expensive I just couldn't tell you which is correct. Its direct money either way if you stop sending me a check but pay for my mortgage and make sure my house stays appraised at competitive values, you're still giving me money. And it ain't free.

I know there are pros and cons to subsidies and I know you compete in a world market where your competitors are backed by very non-competitive practices. Look at friggin Thailand. But getting anyone associated with farming to have a respectful and meaningful conversation on this site for some reason is damned near impossible.
And it really doesn't help when you are told you're too ignorant to have a conversation with and that's the reason you're getting the shiv.

But suit yourself. And I hope you every success. Nobody wins if farming fails for any reason.

BKB

We haven't received a penny since the direct payment three years ago. But when you figure out what I'm going to get, let me know so I can put it on my balance sheet.

Back to your original label thingy. Why should I take your label interest serious ? You've yet to map out your diet for us ? Also, I find it hard to believe you have any vested interest in product awareness when you're a self-proclaimed toker ! You think all that cannabis has been organic and regulated ?

[No-till Boss]

You're right Thump, California voted to have expanded cages. Been watching that closely here in Arkansas because PECO is moving in a huge operation in my part of the State.

[Buckrub]

A lot of the anti GMO stuff is that way. Considering the millions spent on lobbying by the industry, I'll accept that. Regardless, I still think there is some validity in the issues.

If GMOs are as safe as they say, then why is there hesitancy to simply label food that is genetically modified? Why is less information better for the grower and/or the consumer?

BkB

Direct answers: Cost with no meaningful benefit.

And..........Cost with no meaningful benefit.

Two questions, two direct answers.

BUT, your original question was "What do you think of this?" and I told you, several times.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I know right where the weed I get comes from and yes its grown without benefit of chemical fertilizers or weed killers. Its only the government that sprays bad shit on weed anyway. And I definitely get the same little prickly tone from you bringing that up in those words anyway. I suppose that makes a difference to some folks. It don't to me.

My diet has nothing to do with GMO labeling or COOL labeling. Just for FYi, i don't shop organic, but I do shop hormone free meats, i do buy from markets that sell regionally grown products and I probably do 2/3 of buying our food in the produce and meat sections. A few years ago we made a conscious effort to really as much as is reasonable to only eat foods that you can look at and tell what its origins are. In other words, I know what a chicken leg looks like. I couldn't recognize a chicken in a nugget. That general rule has lead us to healthier eating. Its not perfect but we're not regimented enough to follow anything more specific than that. And of course there are exceptions. Like ice cream.

BKB

[Buckrub]

I am going to remember one thing about this discussion. I'm going to remember that you want folks to give a direct answer to your questions in a discussion. That is certainly one of your weaker points! But I'm glad to know it's important to you.

I went back and re-read this whole thread. I think any rational person would conclude that you want GMO products labeled so you can decide not to buy them, that you think farmers are destroying our farmland, that you don't like SOME lobbyists if they give money to keep labeling off food, and that you are doing a little, but really close to nothing, to avoid eating GMO food.

If I'm wrong, let me know. But that's a synopsis of your posts, at least best I can garner.

[Thumper]

I know what a chicken leg looks like. I couldn't recognize a chicken in a nugget.

But you can recognize a cow in a hamburger? :stirthepot

[No-till Boss]

I know right where the weed I get comes from and yes its grown without benefit of chemical fertilizers or weed killers. Its only the government that sprays bad shit on weed anyway. And I definitely get the same little prickly tone from you bringing that up in those words anyway. I suppose that makes a difference to some folks. It don't to me.

My diet has nothing to do with GMO labeling or COOL labeling. Just for FYi, i don't shop organic, but I do shop hormone free meats, i do buy from markets that sell regionally grown products and I probably do 2/3 of buying our food in the produce and meat sections. A few years ago we made a conscious effort to really as much as is reasonable to only eat foods that you can look at and tell what its origins are. In other words, I know what a chicken leg looks like. I couldn't recognize a chicken in a nugget. That general rule has lead us to healthier eating. Its not perfect but we're not regimented enough to follow anything more specific than that. And of course there are exceptions. Like ice cream.

BKB

Congradulations on your healthy choices of pot and food. I wish you the best of luck with it !

[No-till Boss]

But you can recognize a cow in a hamburger? :stirthepot

Hormone free hamburger....

[BarryBobPosthole]

But you can recognize a cow in a hamburger? :stirthepot

No, but I can recognize a smartass, smartass!

BKB

[BarryBobPosthole]

Congradulations on your healthy choices of pot and food. I wish you the best of luck with it !

Well, for some unknown reason, you asked. I answered.

BKb

[No-till Boss]

Well, for some unknown reason, you asked. I answered.

BKb

Seriously, you can't see the irony in you asking about food safety ?

[Thumper]

No, but I can recognize a smartass, smartass!

BKB

:biggrin

[Thumper]

Ok, everybody take a long, deep breath! Relax ...

Ok, while we're taking a break .... Hey NTB, I don't know if all o'youse network or not, but would you happen to know a big rice farmer in N. California? He's actually in Wheatland, but has dirt all over the Sacramento area up there. AND ... even though there's supposedly a drought going on, he has PLENTY of water. I have no clue where he gets it, but he said that drought shit is nonsense. Wells I suppose? Anyway, after all these years, I realize I haven't a clue how he spells his name. He's Italian ... Al Lasaga? Al Lasauga? Anyway, that's close enough. He grows that top of the line, high quality rice and I believe 100% of it goes to Japan. Heck, you can buy his rice in the states ... but I think it actually comes here FROM Japan! ;) That silly stuff sells here for something like $16.00/lb!

[No-till Boss]

I know the name Thump. I have a friend who supposed to be all organic, who I think buys some from him.

I'm sure the water shortage is real, but somehow they keep planting the majority of their acres.

The name of the rice they grow that is so coveted, is Calrose. They have a little goldmine with that gem.

[Thumper]

Heck, I buy Calrose here at times... well, Lynn does anyway. I have no clue what his is called, but it's brown rice. Any Calrose I ever had was white, but I don't know squat about that stuff, I just eat it. I don't know if it remains brown or if they process it in Japan. I suppose I could ask.

[No-till Boss]

Must be the old Basmati then....

[Thumper]

Heck, I'm clueless ... all I know is he's not even allowed to sell locally (I don't think). 100% of his crop goes directly to Japan. At least that's the way I understand it, but I could be wrong.

[No-till Boss]

Heck, I'm clueless ... all I know is he's not even allowed to sell locally (I don't think). 100% of his crop goes directly to Japan. At least that's the way I understand it, but I could be wrong.

All those organic guys will feed you a line of shit. The main difference is, organic is sprayed at night vs what we spray during the day. LOL

[Thumper]

I don't remember anything about being organic per se ... just super high quality from what I understand. I do know the Japanese are extremely picky about their rice ... kinda like their sushi grade fish! If you market quality Blue Fin ... it'll end up in Japan. Heck, I think it was just a couple years ago, Japan bought a (under 500 lbs) Blue Fin for just under $2,000,000. (Don't remember the persact weight/figure)

[Thumper]

Googled it! It was 2 1/2 years ago. The tuna was 489 lbs. and they paid $3,603/lb!

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/05/16367416-japan-bluefin-tuna-sells-for-record-176-million

[No-till Boss]

I don't remember anything about being organic per se ... just super high quality from what I understand. I do know the Japanese are extremely picky about their rice ... kinda like their sushi grade fish! If you market quality Blue Fin ... it'll end up in Japan. Heck, I think it was just a couple years ago, Japan bought a (under 500 lbs) Blue Fin for just under $2,000,000. (Don't remember the persact weight/figure)

California super high end commercial rice is Calrose, it can't be grown anywhere else and is a extreme quality with unreal appearance . Jasmine and Basmati are others, that are available in both white and brown rice.

[No-till Boss]

Still thinking about this, IF they wanted to put something helpful on the label. It should be a complete breakdown in percentages of WHO was paid what, from start to finish. That would be something to see !

[Captain]

Still thinking about this, IF they wanted to put something helpful on the label. It should be a complete breakdown in percentages of WHO was paid what, from start to finish. That would be something to see !
Amen!

[HideHunter]

GREAT THREAD! Typical of what I like about this site.. still a bit confused on where a couple of the points made were "headed".. but - well worth the read. and you guys kind of lay off Barry.. We found out today that we have very much the same political "leanings"... and that's definitive.. ;)

[Hombre]

I don't remember anything about being organic per se ... just super high quality from what I understand. I do know the Japanese are extremely picky about their rice ... kinda like their sushi grade fish! If you market quality Blue Fin ... it'll end up in Japan. Heck, I think it was just a couple years ago, Japan bought a (under 500 lbs) Blue Fin for just under $2,000,000. (Don't remember the persact weight/figure)

I have a video of few months ago when i was in Japan at the Tsukiji fish auction. I'll try and post it later. You'd be amazed at 1) the price that the fish goes for but mostly with 2) that they start with a bazillion pounds of fish and 30 minutes later it all auctioned and accounted for. I very cool scene. I'll try and post it later.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I've been thinking on this topic too since it caused such a stink. And in searching around, there really aren't many 'facts' on GMOs anywhere that a person can hang their hat on. Sure, there's articles that cite science but they all have one thing in common: they tout the science that supports their position and they poo poo the science that doesn't. And in this case, I can't find that there is any real consensus about any of it. The one thing I do find is that 85% of our food is made up of some GMO component. I guess we're in this whether we want to ask questions or not. Its also clear that in food production, efficiency and yield are the two great drivers of everything. Its also clear that to question that model is damn near heresy.
Heresy or not, I can love what farmers do for us and hate the mantra of better living through modern chemistry. What it may boil down to is its a necessary evil. Thats also a common thing you read. But the science part is unsettled, unless of course, it supports your position, then they're all geniuses.

Still, a topic for a good conversation, but appraently not wirh farmers!
PbKB

[quercus alba]

not sure where I stand on genetic modification but I know where I stand on food and I appreciate all the hard working farmers who provide it for me. I do agree with posthole in that most science is going to agree with whoever's dollars are funding their research

[Buckrub]

I just get tickled when I parse Posthole's comments on stuff.........and see the bias while he's trying to claim there is none. I can point those out in his last post, but he'd change subjects or tell me I'm off base in some way. But I do admit he's very good at making folks think he is asking unbiased questions in the sincere quest for truth, justice, and the American Way! :)

I don't know if this stuff is good or bad. My first take is that it's good. But that's without any science. And maybe there is none. Somehow, I bet someone somewhere is studying the issue, though. Till then, I'll just have to eat what I can forage for.......and be happy to get it.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I just get tickled when I parse Posthole's comments on stuff.........and see the bias while he's trying to claim there is none. I can point those out in his last post, but he'd change subjects or tell me I'm off base in some way. But I do admit he's very good at making folks think he is asking unbiased questions in the sincere quest for truth, justice, and the American Way! :)

I don't know if this stuff is good or bad. My first take is that it's good. But that's without any science. And maybe there is none. Somehow, I bet someone somewhere is studying the issue, though. Till then, I'll just have to eat what I can forage for.......and be happy to get it.

Hey I said what my opinion was in the very first post. If you're saying that I'm being misleading then that's your own goddamned reading problem. So go ahead and make your little smarmy remarks. And then claim that anyone who simply disagrees with some opinion of yours is persecuting you.

BKB

[Buckrub]

Now go calm down.

I'm saying that you historically claim no bias, then introduce a lot of bias. I see it in your last post. I am not sure I don't do the same thing, the other way. But I can point it out to you if you want to listen.

But I am sorry I made your biased self so upset. Forgive all o' me.

[Buckrub]

And I just re-read and I had to get to Post #7 to see anything resembling your opinion.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Its not biased to have an opinion. I am open minded enough to think that people who have different opinions aren't stupid, immoral, or going to hell. That doesn't mean I won't argue what I think is a valid truth though.

So the right thing to do is to just STFU if someone disagrees with you? That's what you call a discussion?

Of course I'm biased. Again, I said what I thought in the very first post.

And okay, maybe not the first post. But my opinion is pretty well stated throughout the post. And I also said early on its unsettled science.
Geeze, but you're a nitpicker!

BKB

[Buckrub]

No the very first post just has a hyperlink and your question "What do you think of this?" Maybe I'm missing it.

I did not claim you were not biased. I did not claim being biased is bad. I said no such thing.

I am merely saying that you many times say you are being unbiased, when the bias is very clear in that very same post. E.G., that's extremely clear in your post #82. You are not merely asking questions looking for an honest answer, as you claim, at least I don't think that. Again, I can point out your bias line by line if you want. And now you are trying to say you do have an opinion and it's ok to have opinions. ???? Sure it is, but up till now you've said you did not KNOW what is what and haven't made up your mind......now you say you DO have an opinion and are arguing that it's ok to have an opinion! Of course it is! But that's not what was portrayed for 80 posts.

[Buckrub]

So, you can be a SR. Noticer, and a SR. SD'er, and I can't be a Jr. Nitpicker.

I see. I see.

[Buckrub]

OK, reading the last few posts..........

The dichotomy seems to be in the fact that you believe that you stated your opinion clearly all throughout, and I read you all throughout as having a veiled bias but asking questions about the subject as if you were looking for the truth about GMO's and would happily live with whatever you found.

If this is nitpicking, I'm nitpicking.

What's a nit?

[BarryBobPosthole]

Just to be clear: i don't think removing GMO labels from food and Country of Origin Labels from meat is a good idea until the science is more settled. And the reason is that I don't think less information about our food is better. Clear enough?

Now. i'm willing to hear your opinion and I'm man enough to admit I may be wrong. If anyone who might havesome opinion on it, I'd love to hear it. At least some other opinion than 'you're a fucking communist if you believe this'.

Clear enough?

BKb

[Buckrub]

You're such a communist.

OK, sorry........couldn't help myself. You're not.

I said all along, or tried to (probably poorly) that I don't know enough about GMO to have a fact based opinion. As I understand it, Country of Origin labels are what is being removed......not because of GMO, but because of......duh.......Country of Origin. I might be wrong in that, but that's what I remember reading.

As to what opinion I do have at THIS time...........I am prepared to eat food that is for sale in reputable places, regardless of GMO or Country of Origin, or anything else, I guess. If later there is some revelation that is bad, I'll stop then. But until then, I am not going to spend even a second worrying about it. NOW.........I cannot tell you that there is a really valid reason for my lack of concern, I just simply don't care. Part of it is maybe that I'm 67 and full of a pile of sicknesses and if something is gonna kill me, I'd just as soon it be food. So, I'll eat whatever tastes good....until someone proves me wrong.

I see that as sort of the opposite of your view. Your view is that you want to (somehow) abstain from such foods until someone proves them healthy...........though you find that difficult to do in real life.

I do not care that you DO that. I was only commenting on your M.O., not your opinion or bias on this subject.

And I do not believe everyone that disagrees with me is a communist. I believe you are a communist and often disagree with me, but that's different (I crack myself up sometimes)!! :) Seriously, you have no idea the amount of times that you have swayed my opinion 180...........but not always, and often your opinions are goofy. Mine of course, never are.

[BarryBobPosthole]

See? We can have a conversation. And you're a facist!

There's two bill passed. One was GMO labelling and the other was COOL. They're only related by the fact that there were millions of dollars in lobbying behind them and they are both removing information that people could use if they were avoiding meat from a specific country that used bad practices (maybe even the US!) in their opinion or if they were avoiding GMO foods.
I don't try to avoid GMO foods generally, and its pretty much damned near impossible to in the first place. But aren't we, the buying public, entitled to know that? Mainly that is from the Roundup Ready products in soy, wheat, and corn. I don't even know if they brought rice into the roundup family or not. I know they tried at some point. As for meat, I'm buying more and more beef grass fed products and those at least labelled as hormone and antibiotic free for all types of meat. I don't want to buy fresh meat from another country period. Not fish, not beef, not pork, not chicken. I want to buy all my meat from growers and packers within 100 miles of my home. That's a goal thats not always possible. But if I can do that the majority of the time I'm happy. Obviously there's no seafood caught in that radius. But I do buy wild caught and package in the USA waters if I can. I don't buy Tilapia from Viet Nam for example. But I do buy wild caught Ahi tuna. Its labelled whe its from. Its important when you consider salmon too. Farm raised salmon offer none of the health benefits you get from wild caught.
Anyway, yeah, I do look a labels. If you don't I can live with that. But its hardly a valid reason to take my information away just because you don't. See what I mean?
I do think Monsanto is evil by the way. And I do think the science that brought us NPK farming and the model that gives us "as long as a method improves yield it doesn't matter if its sustainable" is the wrong model. I think monoculture farming is unsustainable. Those 'biases' (I call them opinions) do likely come through in topics like this. Some day, its a model we will be forced to rethink that model. Fuck, I don't know what the best alternative is. I'd like to think it would be a return where we mainly consume stuff that is grown regionally and benefits those who farm it more directly. That,apparently hits some raw nerves.

BKb

[Buckrub]

Hmmmmmmmm.

I may be a Facist.

Hmmmmmmmmm

[No-till Boss]

The people who push GMO labels and GMO-free shopping aren’t informing you or protecting you. They’re using you. They tell food manufacturers, grocery stores, and restaurants to segregate GMOs, and ultimately not to sell them, because people like you won’t buy them. They tell politicians and regulators to label and restrict GMOs because people like you don’t trust the technology. They use your anxiety to justify GMO labels, and then they use GMO labels to justify your anxiety. Keeping you scared is the key to their political and business strategy. The bottom line is that labeling is only a cover for the anti-capitalism agenda of leftist foodies. They oppose biotechnology entirely. Even though modern genetic engineering of plants has been deemed safe by most international science organizations and practiced for decades here in the U.S. without any ill effects, GMO foes can’t get past their anti-corporate hatred toward companies such as Monsanto to acknowledge the usefulness and promise of genetically engineered crops. It’s a political issue, not a science issue.

[Buckrub]

One of NTB's and Posthole's arguments is convincing.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I was with you all the way up to the anti-capitalism of the leftist foodies. i think what you say is reasonable up to a point too about anti GMO groups and what they want to accomplish. But on the flip side, there is just as big a push by companies with real skin in the game for our food dollars that would do anything to ensure they control the entire food industry. Monsanto controls about 90% of the soybean seed industry and about 80% of the corn planted is done with Monsanto patented seeds. I'm not sure why the 'too big to fail' lessons we learned from banking shouldn't cause concern with the food we eat. Especially considering the vigorous litigation Monsanto uses to enforce its patents. That stuff isn't made up and isn't a leftist agenda.

Why is it anything you don't like is called leftist? As aleft hander I don't know howxto take that.

BKB

[Buckrub]

Oh dear. Sunny just put up the most quotable post in 15 years, and I can't quote it.

Oh dear.

Sunny???

Oh, never mind.

[No-till Boss]

Oh dear. Sunny just put up the most quotable post in 15 years, and I can't quote it.

Oh dear.

Sunny???


Oh, never mind.

This don't make her mad so go for it !


Well how the heck do you think an ambidextrous takes it? Me being one!! Lol

[HideHunter]

Oh dear. Sunny just put up the most quotable post in 15 years, and I can't quote it.

Oh dear.

Sunny???

Oh, never mind.

lol... nope - she doesn't have seeds... I think...

[Captain]

My SDing service was not even needed on this thread.
Ain't yall game I didn't "stir it" :D

[quercus alba]

that last message is a little garbled Cap, are you saying some of us are gamey?

[BarryBobPosthole]

For some reason he's got game roosters on the brain.
BKB

[Thumper]

Dang! Sunny leaves herself wide open and I wasn't here to take advantage. DAMMIT!!! ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

Bucky tried, and went down in a hail of bullets.

BKB

[Thumper]

Maybe ... but I have much more SD'ing experience. ;)

[DeputyDog]

Excuse my ignorance, but technically aren't hybrids genetically modified?

[BarryBobPosthole]

That's one of the problems with discussing this issue. Lots of things are genetically engineered. Synthetic biology is really what we're talking about. We've been genetically engineering things since we first planted stuff and domesticated animals. Thats not the synthetic biology that actually modifies the genes of an organism though. Two different animules.

BKB

[No-till Boss]

That's one of the problems with discussing this issue. Lots of things are genetically engineered. Synthetic biology is really what we're talking about. We've been genetically engineering things since we first planted stuff and domesticated animals. Thats not the synthetic biology that actually modifies the genes of an organism though. Two different animules.

BKB

So you're a plant pathologist/scientists now ? They're not necessarily different .......

[DeputyDog]

Isn't doing anything other than allowing things to take their natural course in reproducing, synthetic biology?

Introducing new genetic material into any organism will make offspring with modified genes from the parents, right. So basically it's eugenics for domestic animals and plants. Over history we've allowed the strongest to reproduce and tried to eliminate the weaker genetic material right out of the species.

So I guess you are talking about things that change the genetic make-up of an organism in it's own lifetime, not from one generation to the next.

[BarryBobPosthole]

No, I'm not a plant fucking plant pathologist, smartass. But even a dumb ass like me can tell there's a difference in modifying a plant over time through breeding for certain characteristics and altering or introducing a gene artificially in a plant.



BKB

[No-till Boss]

No, I'm not a plant fucking plant pathologist, smartass. But even a dumb ass like me can tell there's a difference in modifying a plant over time through breeding for certain characteristics and altering or introducing a gene artificially in a plant.


BKB

What if you insert a characteristics that is already found in the plant ? Is that altering ?

[No-till Boss]

Isn't doing anything other than allowing things to take their natural course in reproducing, synthetic biology?

Introducing new genetic material into any organism will make offspring with modified genes from the parents, right. So basically it's eugenics for domestic animals and plants. Over history we've allowed the strongest to reproduce and tried to eliminate the weaker genetic material right out of the species.

So I guess you are talking about things that change the genetic make-up of an organism in it's own lifetime, not from one generation to the next.

Exactly !

[BarryBobPosthole]

I don't know the answer to that. I'm not going to split hairs on what synthetic biology is vs what geneticists do by breeding for desireable traits. And just for the record, breeding plants or animals for selected traits has been proven many times to produce bad results so the science of genetics isn't pure a the driven snow like many would have us believe.

We can't explain away all the bad stuff that's in our food or in our fields on GMOs. We can't say, for example, that its the cause of the big decline of pollinators in nature. What we can say is we don't know that they don't. Simply saying the science will never be settled isn't a valid reason to just label anyone who asks questions a leftist foodie either.

And yeah, I'm stuck on that term because you lifted it directly along with a lot of other stuff you cut and pasted from mostly conservative writers and web sites. That's fine and dandy and its no biggie to me. I did ask for your opinions though, because as a farmer I do value what you have to say. If those lengthy cut and pastes are your opinion, that's fine too. But its kind of disengenuous don't you think?

BKB

[No-till Boss]

I read about 8 hours a day about my profession. I also sit on several boards that address these same issues . When I cut and paste , it's usually something that I've read that day, and pertains to what I'm discussing.

But if that fucking bothers you, and if my fucking grammar bothers bucky, then why don't we start a fucking dissertation thread so you fuckers can try and feel superior !

[Big Muddy]

I think everyone needs to chill, and take a deep breath.

[Buckrub]

Haha.

I tole y'all he'd fit in!! ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

He does! And I like him!

So are either of the people you fucking quoted fucking plant pathologists either?

I think one was Steve Forbes and the other was some food writer for some libertarian rag.

I like it when you swear! You get all red and shit.

And since you sit on boards and stuff that deals with this shit, then your own opinions are certainly worth more than those right wing assholes. They have an agenda you know.

BKB

[LJ3]

I'm a right wing foodie. Does that mean I'm still a dickhead?

[BarryBobPosthole]

No, but a whole bunch of other shit still does.


BKB

[No-till Boss]

When asking these types of in-depth complicated questions about seed/food please ask them ONE question at a time, and I will try to explain them. You're never gonna get all your questions aswered asking 25 at a time. The quote feature is not all it's cracked up to be on here.

[HideHunter]

Gawd.. I love this place.... seldom do you get to see two relatively intelligent, and informed, individuals (with no "off" buttons) carry on with out some admin giving everyone a time-out.. and eddie... mind your own business - it's taken two days to get them this wound up.. ;)

and Sunshine - that would be "three" coins. :D

[BarryBobPosthole]

Now we're getting somewhere. So help me understand or point me someplace that has some cogent argument that sheds some light on the pros and cons of GMO in agriculture. By cogent argument I mean one that isn't an attack on the people on the other side of the deal but actually, in your opinion, gets to the nut of the issue. GMO, or any other branch of science technology can't be 100% pros and no cons. But everyone is so damned focused on describing what an idiot or evil archangel or conspirant the people who think other than what they think, that its damned hard to find an article on it that isn't ideological.

Just so you know, my feelings on organic are very close to yours. Organic had promise at one time though. It doesn't have to mean (nor does it currently) pesticide free either. But I do personally know a dairy farmer that went organic with hos operation and I know that his milk is what its advertised to be. From grass fed, hormone and antibiotic free cows and there's also differences in how its handled. So all 'organic' isn't a sham. Much of that labelling is meaningless though and not worth the extra expense.

BKB

[Arty]

The quote feature is not all it's craced to be on here.

Sunny has done hacked into No-tills account ! :)

[No-till Boss]

Sunny has done hacked into No-tills account ! :)

LOL !

[Buckrub]

I could not begin to even tell you what a plant pathologist is!

My input is "I'm fat and eat lots of stuff".

[Thumper]

My input is "I'm fat and eat lots of stuff".

For once I agree with Bucky!!! (he's fat and eats lots of stuff!) :D

[HideHunter]

Lord - I got on the scale today for the first time in a couple years. I have to lose 20 pounds to get back to where I thought I was too heavy. :hopelessness:

[Buckrub]

I have no clothes. This is serious. I need thumper ' s hand me downs

[Nandy]

I have no clothes. This is serious. I need thumper ' s hand me downs

Touche!

[Thumper]

I have no clothes. This is serious. I need thumper ' s hand me downs

They wouldn't look right on ya' Bucky ... the crotch area is all stretched out. ;)

[HideHunter]

lol.. Ah - the "jar". Back when we had the bar.. I spent much of the first few years as "night" bartender. Because we were also a restaurant (at least until 9:00 pm, or so), we tried to hold the f-bombs down to a minimum. Had a gal, late 20s, nurse.. who couldn't tell you what color the sky was without dropping the bomb. I warned her a night or two ahead I was establishing a "jar". First night - first bomb - "I said that will be a quarter." In typical "kid" smart-ass mode, she threw me a fiver and said, "let me know when I've used that up." "Ha-Ha" - grin - grin -elbow her buddy. *Then* in a stroke of brilliance, I told the rest of the crowd, when we got enough in the jar to buy the house a round, we'd drink it up. (Not just her - anyone) So now, I have 30 people listening instead of just me. :D About a short hour I said, "Five's gone - that will be a quarter." She threw me another five. "Ha-Ha- Har- Har." About an hour.. I needed more money. She says, "You know, this is getting to where it's not so funny anymore." Took about three nights and I never broke her 100% - but I got down to where I was only making a buck or less a night. ;)

[No-till Boss]

Well the F bomb is my favorite .....

[HideHunter]

lol.. Yeah - well that's been 25 years ago.. Nothing's cheap anymore. ;)

[LJ3]

I knew there was a reason I instantly bonded with nofuckingtill right the fuck away. I'm going to get my quarters, Sunny. Chill.

[HideHunter]

I never quite got "numb" to it. I'd say I'd rather not see it used in polite company - but with the "younger" crowd, the gals are every bit as bad - or worse. I personally use it occasionally - for emphasis - I'd say "shock value" but that ship has sailed. ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

From GMOs to swearing. Sex can't be far behind.

BKB

[Buckrub]

If you keep a bag of beans under the bed, and put a bean into a jar everytime you have sex for the first year......then after the first year take a bean out of the jar each time.....you will die with beans in the jar.

[Thumper]

If you keep a bag of beans under the bed, and put a bean into a jar everytime you have sex for the first year......then after the first year take a bean out of the jar each time.....you will die with beans in the jar.

Close Bucky ... but the your wording is a bit off.

If you keep a bag of beans under the bed, and put a bean into a jar everytime you have sex for the first year......then after the first year take a bean out of the jar each time..... IF YOU'RE MARRIED, you will die with beans in the jar. ;)

[No-till Boss]

If you keep a bag of beans under the bed, and put a bean into a jar everytime you have sex for the first year......then after the first year take a bean out of the jar each time.....you will die with beans in the jar.

That makes no damn sense what so ever...... and to think you were a math teacher.....right ?

[Thumper]

Ummm, makes sense to me.

[HideHunter]

uh - yep - me too.. Clear as a bell

I like sex.. wife doesn't.. took her 44 years but I think she's going to win...

[No-till Boss]

So roughly, as I try to grasp where y'all are comeing from. how many times do you think you did it the first year ?

[Buckrub]

More than all the rest combined! :)

[BarryBobPosthole]

Even if you used just 20 years as the length of the marriage, if you did it once a week over that remaining 19 years, you'd do it 988 times. To beat that, the first year you'd have to do it 2.7 times a day EVERY single day of the year. Drop that to once a month over the 19 and you'd still have a hard time doing it every single day like you'd have to in order to beat that.

I think you're full of shit.

BKB

[No-till Boss]

Even if you used just 20 years as the length of the marriage, if you did it once a week over that remaining 19 years, you'd do it 988 times. To beat that, the first year you'd have to do it 2.7 times a day EVERY single day of the year. Drop that to once a month over the 19 and you'd still have a hard time doing it every single day like you'd have to in order to beat that.

I think you're full of shit.

BKB

Thank you...... we agree again !

[BarryBobPosthole]

i'm still searching for something Bucky said that I can agree with. i'm running out of time.

BKB

[Nandy]

Geezz! We cant pretend or have fun around here with you two bubble busters!!!!

[Buckrub]

i'm still searching for something Bucky said that I can agree with. i'm running out of time.

BKB

I'm sitting here wondering if you ever agreed with anyone? :)

[HideHunter]

I liked it better when they were fighting.. Thump and Big Sky too, for that matter. ;)

[No-till Boss]

I liked it better when they were fighting.. Thump and Big Sky too, for that matter. ;)

We'll get back crossed up ...... lol I'm just glad there is some hope !

[Thumper]

An average of 2.7 times/day is about normal ... isn't it? ;)

[No-till Boss]

An average of 2.7 times/day is about normal ... isn't it? ;)

I'm .7 off today if it is .....

[Thumper]

I'm .7 off today if it is .....

The day's not over yet!

[Nandy]

An average of 2.7 times/day is about normal ... isn't it? ;)

You are going to grow hair in the face of your palm.... wait, you already do!

[Thumper]

What did you type there? I'm having trouble seeing. ;)

[Nandy]

Strike two!!! y'all have a great weekend, im signing off!

[No-till Boss]

Good read IMO

http://fw.to/0aOI7HC

[Thumper]

Interesting ... but I only made it about 2/3 (if that) of the way through before I decided "I don't give a rat's ass"! :D

But, I'd never heard of "Slate" before and decided to check them out. DANG!! I think maybe I could get a job there and possibly get PAID for "shit-disturbing"! I think I'd fit in quite nicely with their staff. :D

From Wiki:

Reputation for counterintuitive arguments ("Slate pitches")

Since at least 2006, Slate has been known for publishing contrarian pieces arguing against commonly held views about a subject, giving rise to the #slatepitches Twitter hashtag in 2009. The Columbia Journalism Review has defined Slate pitches as "an idea that sounds wrong or counterintuitive proposed as though it were the tightest logic ever" and explained their success as follows: "Readers want to click on Slate Pitches because they want to know what a writer could possibly say that would support their logic". In 2014, Slate* '​s editor-in-chief Julia Turner acknowledged that a reputation for counterintuitive arguments forms part of Slate's "distinctive" brand, but argued that the hashtag misrepresents the site's journalism: "We are not looking to argue that up is down and black is white for the sake of being contrarian against all logic or intellectual rigor. But journalism is more interesting when it surprises you either with the conclusions that it reaches or the ways that it reaches them."

[No-till Boss]

Well Sunny, you've already admitted to buying unregulated food (remember your local buying) but you're concerned about food that goes thru many strenuous regulations to ever make it to your table. Go figure .......

[No-till Boss]

Science and technology always wins out over ignorance and superstitions......

[Thumper]

Yep, follow the "old" ways! Sunny, only 5.3% of white females lived to see 80 years of age in the early 1900's ... compared to almost double that at 9.7% today. Do you think science and technology may have had something to do with that? Or do you think we should have stuck with the "old ways"?

[BarryBobPosthole]

So the premise here is that science and technology always pushes society forward in the right direction?

BKB

[HideHunter]

The worst part about progress is.. when you get it wrong, there's very seldom any "going back".

[Thumper]

So the premise here is that science and technology always pushes society forward in the right direction? BKB

I'd have to say for the most part, yes. Or maybe we should have just stayed in the horse and buggy days ... with NO AIR CONDITIONING! ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

You can take DDT as a prime example of how a topic can be so blurred by 'information' that its damned hard to find anything objectively written about it. Modern day defenders of DDT almost always point to the bad science in the book that started the whole movement to ban it, 'Silent Spring' by Rachael Carson. There are people, even now, that will look you straight in the eye and tell you DDT isn't bad for you. And then they'll point to lives saved from its use. Very similar to what we hear in this argument 'the golden rice story in No Till's reference article). sure, DDT saved many lives and filled many stomachs. It also had severe unintended consequences that we are STILL seeing aftereffects of today in our environment.
Upton Sinclair was branded a crackpot, a shit disturber of the highest degree, and an outright liar not only by the media, but by the federal friggin government after he published The Jungle. Until they looked into it and found out he was right. His book opened the door to the Pure Food and Drug act and many of the food safety regulations we have today. and Silent Spring opened the door that eventually led to the banning of DDT. if you read about both of these events in history, the arguments from the pros are exactly the same as are the tactics of labelling anyone who asks questions as having some liberal agenda.
Bucky can reference his John Stossell flawed argument about DDT here. He thinks he's the smartest man in the world, unless he's reading someone else.
I read noTill's article. He makes three points that he outlines quite succintly. In the first two he simply attacks the people who question GMOs, says they are frauds and shams, and in the third point he obfusticates the issue with some wierd shit claiming genetic engineering isn't a thing, but is a process. I've cut and pasted the relevant summary below.

"Many of us, however, don't trust these assurances. We're drawn to skeptics who say that there's more to the story, that some studies have found risks associated with GMOs, and that it's all being covered up by Monsanto Company, the huge agribusiness that sells GMO seed and the herbicide Roundup. I've spent much of the past year digging into the evidence. Here's what I've learned. First, it's true that the issue is complicated. But the deeper you dig, the more fraud you find in the case against GMOs. It's full of errors, fallacies, misconceptions, misrepresentations and lies. The people who tell you that Monsanto is hiding the truth are themselves hiding evidence that their own allegations about GMOs are false. They're counting on you to feel overwhelmed by the science and to accept, as a gut presumption, their message of distrust.

Second, the central argument of the anti-GMO movement — that prudence and caution are reasons to avoid genetically engineered, or GE, food — is a sham. Activists who tell you to play it safe around GMOs take no such care in evaluating the alternatives. They denounce proteins in GE crops as toxic, even as they defend drugs, pesticides and non-GMO crops that are loaded with the same proteins. They portray genetic engineering as chaotic and unpredictable, even when studies indicate that other crop improvement methods, including those favored by the same activists, are more disruptive to plant genomes.

Third, there are valid concerns about some aspects of GE agriculture, such as herbicides, monocultures and patents. But none of these concerns is fundamentally about genetic engineering. Genetic engineering isn't a thing. It's a process that can be used in different ways to create different things."

This is more of the same hyperbole, NoTill.

Meanwhile, here's a link to an article written by someone on the 'other side'. Its not perfect but I think it does at least have some objectivity.

http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/playing-god-in-the-garden/

[Buckrub]

I still have no opinion on this, and honestly could not possibly care less.

However, in the hopes of continuing this much past 5 pages............ :) .......I do have a question.

Why is 'caution and prudence' in farming, harvesting, timber production, oil drilling, and almost everything else, almost exclusively the provenance of "the Left" and technology, progress, efficiency, construction, etc., the provenance of "the Right". It's almost exclusive, is the part that sort of amazes me. It's almost like all the Lefties got together and decided they'd all think the same way, and all the Righties thought they were all silly.

I guess I'm way more "Right". But when I read Posthole's comments (And in fairness, anyone else who leans his way and who is wanting 'caution' on such things), I don't really read "let's go slow". I know that is what he/they are saying. I get it. But I sorta read into that "Let's stop dead still, and if we never fire back up, that'll be ok". I read him saying 'I have an opinion, a bias, and that's ok', but I don't see him thinking it's ok for ME to have the opposite bias. And in all honesty, I think his bias is way off base, too.

So, I guess that's 2 questions. Why does the discussion of these things centrifuge folks into two distinct camps, always.........and Why do both sides get belligerent if the other side won't listen to them, but then turn around and pay no attention themselves?

This is 5 pages of "My side says THIS" and "Well, POOH, MY side says the other".

I don't care one way or the other. I usually do, but not on this one for some reason. So maybe that's why I ask.

Carry on, though. I gotta go find some processed meat to eat.

[Thumper]

Well dang Bucky ... I agree with most of what you said, but the biggest points on which we agree are posted below. My opinion? "I could give a rat's ass" ... which pretty much matches yours, just with different wording. ;)


I still have no opinion on this, and honestly could not possibly care less.

I don't care one way or the other. I usually do, but not on this one for some reason.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Those are good questions. my own opinion is that the more leftish (note: not leftists) people have always been the ones to take up the cause relating to the 'user' side of things, to put it in terminology we both relate to. Take the coal vs labor stuff in the early 1900s. People were out and out dying from the labor practices of the coal producers with virtually no hope of ever breaking the cycle their families were in. Enter big labor, driven mainly by extreme left folks of the socialist and communist persuasions. At odds were far left and far right political and social ideologies but the real folks who did the work and bought and used the coal were largely on between.

And I never in this thread said we had to stop anything. I think regardless of whether No Till or I is right, agribusiness and farming will go on, and hardly anybody in the United States will drop dead of eating frankenbeans. (I made a funny!)
What do I want to happen? I believe the current agribusiness model of ever more planting with ever more efficiency is not sustainable. I believe its led to the monoculture farms and meat operations that pollute the earth, sterilizes the soil, and has impacted other species in ways we still don't understand. These things can't change overnight. There is a growing need for food in the world that the pointy, business end of agriculture (the farmers) is desperately racing to fill. And there are factors that make it impossible for farmers to not go along with the tide. Some of those factors, by the way, are created by the big end of that plow, the Monsantos of the world. The evil part about The Monsantos of the world isn't that they are angels of the devil. The evil part is that their own survival and success drives their need to control all of our agriculture. There are practically no industrial farms, the ones that produce the bulk of our food, that can operate outside of the Monsanto family. I don't think that is sustainable either. It wasn't in banking and it isn't in food production.
it'd be crazy to ban GMO foods. It'd be crazier to try to regulate in some way the Monsantos of the world.
It wouldn't be crazy though to make regional farming more profitable, to remove the subsidies that make it possible for tomatoes grown in Mexico or California to be sold cheaper than the ones grown in our own states. It wouldn't be crazy to reduce the extremely high pressure to plant and produce more per acre just to maintain margins. I'm not at all sure how to do that, but there are ways. Its some of these factors that lead us down the path we're on of adjusting our chemistry to keep up with the consquences that our last chemistry left us with.
Keep defending the current process though. It gives us cheaper calories, poorer food, and consequences we can't ever dream of yet.

BKB

[Captain]

Yep sure Posthole. Like the left fought Lincoln tooth and nail to NOT free the slaves. It was the right ( the republicans) that wanted the slaves freed. But those old democrats fought hand over fist to stop that from happening.
I can match you all day long on examples where the right was right and the left ONLY got on board when there was something in it for them. NOT THE PEOPLE....

[BarryBobPosthole]

I didn't mean to imply the left was always right! Just that they were mostly left.

.....maybe that's what I meant anyways.

BKB

[Buckrub]

Keep defending the current process though. It gives us cheaper calories, poorer food, and consequences we can't ever dream of yet.

I imagine that 7 Billion humans will probably be on "the Right" on this one. You just gotta eat. As for me, I'll eat food either way, don't care. But something has to be done.........either let those folks a) eat what there is or starve, b) teach them to grow their own food, or c) grow it for them faster, bigger, stronger, and more of it. You choose. I doubt you Leftish type folks would like global starvation much either.

Not that this is directly relevant..........but I can't help but think of the coolest, funniest, sharpest, and absolutely most apropos bumper sticker in the history of cars........... "If you don't like logging, try wiping your butt with a spotted owl".... And I think you're smart enough to see the analogy here.

[airbud7]

I can't help but think of the coolest, funniest, sharpest, and absolutely most apropos bumper sticker in the history of cars........... "If you don't like logging, try wiping your butt with a spotted owl"....


hahahahhaha^....Love it Bucky...

[BarryBobPosthole]

Keep defending the current process though. It gives us cheaper calories, poorer food, and consequences we can't ever dream of yet.

I imagine that 7 Billion humans will probably be on "the Right" on this one. You just gotta eat. As for me, I'll eat food either way, don't care. But something has to be done.........either let those folks a) eat what there is or starve, b) teach them to grow their own food, or c) grow it for them faster, bigger, stronger, and more of it. You choose. I doubt you Leftish type folks would like global starvation much either.

Not that this is directly relevant..........but I can't help but think of the coolest, funniest, sharpest, and absolutely most apropos bumper sticker in the history of cars........... "If you don't like logging, try wiping your butt with a spotted owl".... And I think you're smart enough to see the analogy here.

You sure know how to tell 'em!

BKB

[Buckrub]

Didn't make it up, dude. I never lie. I'm stupid, and very ignorant.

But I never lie.

Old, old bumper sticker. Heck, even Audubon magazine knows about it.

http://archive.audubonmagazine.org/incite/incite0901-webexclusives.html

[No-till Boss]

So the premise here is that science and technology always pushes society forward in the right direction?

BKB

Why hell yes.....

[No-till Boss]

DDT was used right here on thousands and thousands of acres of rice with no ill effects, and is still used in other counties.

The only farming practice that I know of that sterilizes the ground is potato farmers. Our ground is richer than it was when it was originally cleared for farming.

Barry, I really wish you would start with you biggest concerns and lets go over them ONE at a time. You write a pretty paper, to me, it's the same gargled up jargon that you keep denouncing tho.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Well, except for the raptors and stuff. And more links to other stuff is coming out all the time. There's a lot of breathless rhetoric coming out of both sides on that whole DDT deal.

We ain't gonna get anywhere with this discussion, NoTill and Bucky is quoting his tired old internet memes.

I think I'll go wipe my ass with a spotted owl before I tell him to go fuck himself.

BKB

Ps...I'll tell you what I'll do though. Some day I'll sit down with you and a bottle of whiskey and we can argue it out as long as you want to. I'm looking forward to it.

[Thumper]

Ha! Whiskey has prolly killed more people than DDT and GMO's put together! :stirthepot

[BarryBobPosthole]

I'll bring an Okie twist too.

And a picture for Earl Butz for his office! It can go roght next to his Richard Nixon!

BKB

[Captain]

I think I'll go wipe my ass with a spotted owl before I tell him to go fuck himself. BKB

Welcome to the Republican Party! :D

[BarryBobPosthole]

Welcome to the Republican Party! :D

Another guy I need to drink whiskey with.

We're gonna need a bigger jug!

BKB

[No-till Boss]

Well, except for the raptors and stuff. And more links to other stuff is coming out all the time. There's a lot of breathless rhetoric coming out of both sides on that whole DDT deal.

We ain't gonna get anywhere with this discussion, NoTill and Bucky is quoting his tired old internet memes.

I think I'll go wipe my ass with a spotted owl before I tell him to go fuck himself.

BKB

Ps...I'll tell you what I'll do though. Some day I'll sit down with you and a bottle of whiskey and we can argue it out as long as you want to. I'm looking forward to it.

I'm fine discussing with my own thoughts if that will make you feel better, but you're gonna have to ask one questions at a time. Because a lot of these things over-lap in a thought process .

[Captain]

Posty, I'll be bringing the corn squezins'. And now that I'm no longer "the man" you are welcome to bring along any green vegetable material as you see fit! :D I'm certain we would agree on more than we disagree. And as always it's an honor to disagree with a fine (old hippie) gentleman.

[BarryBobPosthole]

You're on!

BKB

[Captain]

You're on! BKB
Just make sure your green vegetable material has a proper label of ingredients and I'll get the labeling for the GMO corn we convert to likker... ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

Oh brother.

I don't suppose you approve of serial numbers on condoms either.

BKB

[Captain]

They been printing them on condoms since I was in high school. :D

[Thumper]

I'm not a big fan of whiskey, but if you bring the bong with you, I'm in! ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

I'll bring the Walleye Whistle.

BKB

[Buckrub]

Well, except for the raptors and stuff. And more links to other stuff is coming out all the time. There's a lot of breathless rhetoric coming out of both sides on that whole DDT deal.

We ain't gonna get anywhere with this discussion, NoTill and Bucky is quoting his tired old internet memes.

I think I'll go wipe my ass with a spotted owl before I tell him to go fuck himself.

BKB

Ps...I'll tell you what I'll do though. Some day I'll sit down with you and a bottle of whiskey and we can argue it out as long as you want to. I'm looking forward to it.

You get my hopes up, and then...................

And you would NOT stay around if you were losing. You'd make some excuse about having to go get more whiskey or something, and run out, way before you'd admit you were wrong. I've met you manager types before. I got your argument skills right here.

You can tell me all day.....but you STILL have to go get that spotted owl ready, cause I know you are full of what he needs to wipe off!@!!! :)

P.S.
This is my first post typed under the auspices of Windows 10.

[No-till Boss]

For the last 30 years, I've been involved in on farm research and new technology. I can't even count the number of projects or the companies that I have worked with over the years. I know a lot of people think Monsanto is satan, but it was probably the same group that hates Walmart too. I have no idea if Monsanto right or wrong, but i can shed some light on why they're so successful. When Monsanto comes to your farm, everything they have and do are perfect. They roll up like the circus, and immediately start unloading and setting up like a well oiled machine . They have the best and the newest equipement and technology, Their plots are immaculate, extremely symmetical and when their seeds emerge, it has the precision of a military cemetery. During the growing season, they have someone monitoring and taking notes weeky. Harvest is every bit as precise as the planting, their equipment is the lastest and greatest. They also have the capability of producing real time harvest data with satelite data transfer . Monsanto also hires the best people, you can't not be a slacker and work there, if you don't do your job, they have a extremely quick hook.

This is just a small insight on what I've seen that make them different that say other companies. Monsanto for now has set the standard for quality, and it's a reflection on how they operate .

[Thumper]

NTB, thanks for the firsthand knowledge and insight, it is appreciated and interesting. The Walmart analogy is interesting ... everyone bitches about them, yet everybody shops there. I've seen many other examples through the years where the most successful are the ones who catch the most heat from consumers or observers. It's like the drug companies, they spend millions for research and pay top tier researchers to develop a product. They incur all sorts of expenses with products that fail and are scrapped, yet when they hit on a successful product, they are the Devil because they try to recoup their expenses which have accrued for years before they managed to introduce a viable product.

I don't really have a dog in this fight because I know squat about farming ... I thought all that stuff was grown in the back storage area of the grocery store! ;)

Anyway, thanks for that info. As far as the food I eat, I'd put more trust in the Monsantos of the world than some unregulated dirt farmer in Central Mexico.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I have no issues or even knowledge of what they do tactically. Its what they are doing strategically that I take issue with. That and their company history. They are developers and producers of products like polystyrene, DDT, Agent Orange, and saccharin. Not exactly a track record for dealing in products that are harmless to humans and to the environment. That's the roots of the company and what springboarded them to where they are today. Stewards of product safety and the environment? Here's a tip. Past behavior predicts future behavior.

I'm sure they are good at what they do though.

BKb

[No-till Boss]

Anyway, thanks for that info. As far as the food I eat, I'd put more trust in the Monsantos of the world than some unregulated dirt farmer in Central Mexico.

I think you're correct Thump, when you're talking food safety, I lean to the things that are already scrutinzed verses the organic and produce markets that get around the system and the buy local mentality.

[No-till Boss]

I have no issues or even knowledge of what they do tactically. Its what they are doing strategically that I take issue with. That and their company history. They are developers and producers of products like polystyrene, DDT, Agent Orange, and saccharin. Not exactly a track record for dealing in products that are harmless to humans and to the environment. That's the roots of the company and what springboarded them to where they are today. Stewards of product safety and the environment? Here's a tip. Past behavior predicts future behavior.

I'm sure they are good at what they do though.

BKb

Paranoia and the sky is falling could be contribute to other things too........ just saying

[BarryBobPosthole]

I am neither paranoid nor do I think the sky is falling. Even though I have tried to be as explicit as I could about what I think needs to be done and what is wrong with what we're doing today, you write it all off as this?

give me a large fucking break, NoTill.

BKB

[Thumper]

Curmudgeon. ;)

[No-till Boss]

I am neither paranoid nor do I think the sky is falling. Even though I have tried to be as explicit as I could about what I think needs to be done and what is wrong with what we're doing today, you write it all off as this?

give me a large fucking break, NoTill.

BKB

A break ? Fuck you haven't been explicit, you haven't done anything but throw conspiracy theories out there . Hahahahaha Bullshit........

[BarryBobPosthole]

I'm not sure why I let you suck me back down this friggin rabbit hole, but I'm done.

BKB

[Thumper]

I'm not sure why I let you suck me back down this friggin rabbit hole, but I'm done. BKB


Ha ha ha ha! You're not done ... I see your time stamp ... the NASCAR race starts in 4 minutes! ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

Baseball and NasTycar on at the same time. Got the crossword worked, the wife off to work, and my butt parked in my chair.

BKB

[Thumper]

Retirement sucks, huh? ;)

[BarryBobPosthole]

A veritable biotch.

BKB

[No-till Boss]

I'm not sure why I let you suck me back down this friggin rabbit hole, but I'm done.

BKB

Come on in, the water is fine....... lol