I'd like some opinions, please...

[Herb2]

While I was gone from here, I started reading on another forum.

This was originally one of those "I'm a straight conservative white man; will I fit in in San Fransisco" or "we are a liberal, gay, PETA supporting couple; will it be a problem living in Wyoming if neither of us can drive a car; I mean there ARE subways in Cody, right?" type of moving forums, but it has expanded to include food and drink, entertainment and "employment" sections (among others).

I THINK it is geared toward millennials, but there are also a bunch of posters around my age *Boomers).

Anyway on the "employment" forum, I have seen threads titled "I will NEVER work overtime; what kind of job can I get that pays $80,000 per year", or "I took six years to get my BA in English, now I have spent three months looking for work without success; should I get another BA in History, or Sociology" or "What job pays the best while requiring absolutely no work from me?".

It may be just me and my own attitude, but a good number of these kids appear to be intentionally unemployable. At the very best, it looks like we have a bunch of 25-30 year old who never had summer job whether it was sandblasting cast irom parts or working at Weiner King.

Is this a generational thing; did we Boomers doom our kids to a lifetime of abject failure by not making the hold down a job in their school years?

[No-till Boss]

I've said for 25 years, for the most part, higher education only breeds discontent. Just because you can go to college and just because you're smart enough to graduate from college, don't mean your place in life is not riding on the back of a trash truck. Now you're just pissed-off thinking you're smarter than your abilites !

[Buckrub]

Well, first, I bet you were a real hit at such sites!

"Liberal Arts" has become a joke. When I took sociology, economics, psychology, geology, four English courses, P.E., and such, I learned that there was more to the world than I originally thought. I didn't learn anything in those courses to help me get a job, I just learned 'stuff'. Now, I don't know what they learn. I greatly suspect that they learn to be brainwashed by professors with an agenda, and little else.

Not to say college is useless, it's not. If you want to be an engineer, doctor, pharmacist, or such.......of course those courses are required to get you there.

But a B.A. in Sociology is about useless in today's technocrat world, IMHO. You are wasting your time. You should have been an apprentice to an electrician, well digger, plumber, or the like. Those are the guys that live in the big houses.

[Herb2]

I obviously didn't make myself clear. It's not just poor degree choices I mean. It's a general lack of desire to work and better themselves that apparently exists.

Let me give another example. One guy works at a high end car dealership as a salesman. He makes between $160K and $200K a year, but is ready to quit. Why? Because the dealership requires him to (a) wear (long sleeve) dress shirt to work, (b) make 20 sales call per day and (c) to personally install the temporary car tags on cars he sells.

He's willing to throw over a better job than probably 90% of Americans have because he wants to wear golf shirts to work and not get his hands dirty. I don't mention the sales call because he is after all a salesman; I wouldn't mention "putting out fires" if we were talking about a fire fighter either.

I know part of this is an age thing; when I was 20 my generation was looked at as lazy and unwilling to work by our bosses, and now WERE the slave drivers. I just don't ever remember thinking I ws owed a living.

And another thing along these same lines. Over the last 5-10 years, I have gotten to observe several people graduate college with unfocussed degrees (nursing, accounting, engineering, etc. are focused; if you graduate with those degrees you are probably going to be a nurse, accountant or engineer; if you graduate with a math, English, or History degree, you have a much wider field of possible jobs, but you aren't uniquely suited for any of them).

None of them EVER considered how they were going to use their education to get a job until AFTER graduation, and apparently that was encouraged by their colleges. Gee! When I was in school everybody "knew" just what they were going to, even though some of those plans changed often. How can anyone slog through four years of study without having "their eye on the prize"?

And No-till, I can certainly see where you are coming from. when asked "what should I be when I grow up" for years I have suggested being a plumber. Why? Technology changes but we all need a toilet every now and again. You aren't going to become obsolete, plus since few are going that route the laws of supply and demad suggest rising wages.

[Buckrub]

Well...........yeah, I get all that and agree 100%.

The question is "Why?".............Why are they unwilling to work? If they won't work, what DO they do? How do they eat?

Answer that, and I think you'll have figured it out.

[Thumper]

Well duh Bucky ... the government will take care of them!

Dang Herb, I just realized how much I've missed you around here. Welcome home again!

[quercus alba]

I don't know if there is an answer for that question but there are some things that contribute to the "Me Generation".

1) they are doted on as children and taught that they are special. Mama and dad go to bat for them whenever the teacher corrects them, or the ball coach doesn't start them at pitcher and any number of other little things. Schools teach that there are no wrong answers, that causes esteem issues. Ritalin is used too often and razor-straps not often enough.

2) most children do not learn the concept of work until they're adults when they're thrown out into the world, after all "they're Special".

3) Discipline and structure are virtually non existent in many homes, not necessarily referring to the belt but rather teaching children how to incorporate discipline into their their lives, i.e. time management, controlling anger etc. These are teachable attributes that greatly enhance the chances of being a useful productive member of society.

allowing young children to find their own way is often going to cause an epic fail.

At least that is my opinion. The only experience I have is my three sons who have turned out well so my sample size is somewhat skewed

[Buckrub]

How so?

I have become fairly familiar with government programs, SNAP, welfare, medicaid, etc.......because of my brother (who Hospice just kicked out cause he didn't die soon enough.......). And I know a lot of what you said is done tongue in cheek. But many people believe that is true, that the government will help anyone, anytime, with about anything they need.

I don't know of a program that will give aid and assistance to an able bodied 24 year old. If there is one, let me know what it is.

[No-till Boss]

You know, after 25 years, AND reading the replies, I think it's time to change the word discontent to entitlement !

Now, I think after 25 years, education breeds a extraordinary amount of entitlement !

Use to, I could get pick-up labor, and for the most part they were happy to do, NOW, they asked what we will be doing before they answer, and the price is irrelevant, because if they don't wanna do that particular job, they ain't gonna do it for any price .

I think, what I see more than anything, is VERY soft people ! It's too hot, it's too nasty, I don't wanna work that long. ect.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Isn't that what Mexicans are for?

bKB

[Herb2]

Thanks, Jim, It's good to be back.

Quercus alba, I think one real reason for this is this younger set appears to have never had a summer job; or at least many of them are that way.

If I wanted to do something "special", I had to work to get enough money to do so. My first real job (sacking groceries?) paid for my first Canadian fishing trip. The next year I earned enough (in a steel door warehouse, and sandblasting cast iron cylinders for coating with polyurethane), to buy my shotgun and first deer rifle; the years after that, I was earning for college. Pretty much all hard, hot, dirty work, which made me real focused about my education.

[Thumper]

Back in MY college days, the movie "The Graduate" always came to mind. Dustin Hoffman graduated college and had no clue what he wanted to do with himself. At his graduation party, he was told "Plastics" ... it was highly suggested he go into "Plastics" (the wave of the future). I saw MYSELF in that movie.

I had a 4.0 average in all my sciences (Science, Chemistry and Physics). I had a 4.0 in all my math courses, Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry and Calculus (the latter two were "advanced" h/s courses). EVERYBODY patted me on the back and instead of "Plastics" ... all I heard was, "Engineering"! So, like a lamb, I went off to college as an Engineering major. It took me about elebenty-sebenteen (not a really big number BTW) days to realize I'd been "railroaded" by expectations (from others) and I had absolutely ZERO desire to enter the engineering field. The second in command at the General Motors Assembly Plant in Arlington, Texas asked me if I was interested in going to work for him and it took me about .002 micro-seconds to say, "YES!!" Problem is, I quit school (which meant I lost my student draft deferment), moved to Texas and almost immediately afterward, they held the draft lottery and I was on the way to Vietnam!

Although I thought that had ruined my life, it turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me. It gave me a chance to clear my head and actually decide what I REALLY wanted to do with my life. (hint: Mechanical Engineering was NOT on the short-list) So, I disagree that once you're in college, you know where you're headed and what your goals are. At least, that didn't apply in my case (OR Dustin Hoffman's). ;)

When it comes to my thoughts on college, I'm in agreement with Bucky. In "most" fields, I believe a college education is overrated. My brother finished college and graduated with a degree in Sociology! WTF? He received all the kudos and pats on the back from family, etc, but when I asked him what he was going to do with that worthless piece of paper, he hadn't a clue. I will say, he had a rude awakening because he thought people were going to be knocking his door down begging him to give them the privilege of hiring him. He quickly learned, if he didn't want to starve, he was going to have to at least flip burgers! He decided to go to work for Bechtel (construction) and that gave him time to get his head screwed on straight and decide what direction he wanted to take. He eventually went into business selling business franchises and has done very well for himself. BTW, he still has that worthless degree on the wall in his office!

Where I agree with you 110% is the sense of "entitlement" today's youth seem to possess. I see it on a daily basis with my friends and neighbor's kids. WORK is a 4-letter word to most of them. I've been working (seriously) since I was 10 years old and have ALWAYS known, if I want something, I'm going to have to work for it. When I started my own business in 1989, I had visions of expanding into the biggest company I could handle. Within the first year, I went from one employee (myself) to having 6 trucks/crews on the road. I got so sick and tired of dealing with people who LOVED getting a paycheck ... but HATED having to work for that paycheck, that after a couple of years, I simply got fed up with it, fired every swinging dick on the payroll and spent the next 16 years working by myself.

[Buckrub]

The greatest incentive for ambition is to have a wife and kids and get fired...........

[Thumper]

I don't know of a program that will give aid and assistance to an able bodied 24 year old. If there is one, let me know what it is.

I can do that right now ... come on down here and we'll take a drive through the "Projects". They're sitting on every front porch.

[Buckrub]

That doesn't answer my question.

[Thumper]

Bucky, I'm with you on these programs. I haven't a clue. But, I'll tell you one thing, if you want to find out about a program for most ANY scenario you can come up with, come on down to Lynn's hotel and call all the housekeepers into a room for a little sit-down. I PROMISE you, you'll get an education that will make your head spin! They will inform you of "programs" you never knew existed!

[Thumper]

That doesn't answer my question.

You're asking the wrong person.

[Buckrub]

I'm asking in general. It is a 'point' for me. I hear over and over how everyone not working is on some program.

SNAP is only available if you are disabled and can prove it.

Welfare (TANF) is generally only available if you have kids....same with WIC. And recipients have to find work within 2 years.

SSI is only available if you are disabled and can prove it and never paid into Social Security, OR you are 65 and never did.

So, how are these able bodied 24 year olds that don't like work, that Herb mentions, going to eat? It's a legitimate question.

[BarryBobPosthole]

We let our 'national leaders' convince us that we are behind other nations in producing highly productive, highly educated workers and that our public schools were shot. Thus 'No Child Left Behind', politicians started clamouring for charter schools and many other schemes like voucher systems to produce these wunderkind graduates and all basically take money from the very public school system they said needed fixed to begin with. So instead of investing money in teachers, we invested it in companies to do rigorous testing. And somewhere in there we invented a fact that we needed more college graduates.

The fact is, not every kid who graduates high school is college or college graduate material. Or even needs to be. We need skilled trades to remain productive as much or more than we do college graduates. And we should be investing money in our teachers and schools and allow them to do their work. SAT and ACT and the Iowa tests give us plenty of result oriented data without spening all this time teaching kids to pass a goddamned test.

There's nothing wrong with this generation of kids that a hard dose of reality won't cure. My first wife came out of college with a bachelors in Marketing and then skipped from job to job looking for something that wasn't beneath her station, similar to the way you describe these kids today. So she went back and got her Masters and then did the same thing. She never held a job for more than a few years. Meanwhile, I was in the Air Force, got out and went to work and sure, I furthered my education. By getting a FCC Second Class license that I had to study hard for (in a junior college), but basically I stayed current in my 'profession' and I worked hard. She eventually got yet another degree and actually did best in her career when Sarbanes Oxley came along and companies needed consulting help understanding the new accounting rules. Not bragging, but with my high school diploma and military vocational training I outearned her by a factor of two for borh of our entire careers. Mainly because most of what she did was waste time. With education.
All that not to brag, but to point out that our public schools can be good school when we have realistic expectations of what we want from them and stop convincing ourselves that the only thing that's important from school is what we learn academically. If our kids can't read, fire the fucking reading teacher, but don't endlessly test these youngsters just to convince ourselves how smart we are.

Dumbassery isn't generational. But it is better funded than the dumbasses were in our day. That's the major difference. So they go to college instead of going to work. And they start life with what is basically a mortgage in student loans. No wonder they need an 80k job.

BKB

[No-till Boss]

I'm asking in general. It is a 'point' for me. I hear over and over how everyone not working is on some program.

SNAP is only available if you are disabled and can prove it.

Welfare (TANF) is generally only available if you have kids....same with WIC. And recipients have to find work within 2 years.

SSI is only available if you are disabled and can prove it and never paid into Social Security, OR you are 65 and never did.

So, how are these able bodied 24 year olds that don't like work, that Herb mentions, going to eat? It's a legitimate question.

I think you're under estimating the amount of young people that are on full disability .

[Buckrub]

Good points.

And Posty can relate to this, I bet.

I had a technical job in a technical field, for many, many years. I had many bosses! (You can insert jokes, and I realize that no one wanted me as an employee!).......... but I did have a ton of bosses. I haven't counted, but I bet it's way over 20+.........

Two had a college degree..............

[No-till Boss]

That was a excellent post Barry...... great examples of real life ! Thank you for sharing .....

[Buckrub]

I think you're under estimating the amount of young people that are on full disability .

No, I will bet everything that I own that I am not.

It is a topic with which I am considerably familiar.

Besides, what kind of disability? You can't draw SS Disability unless you are either Permanently (40 total covered quarters) or Currently employed and a member.

[Buckrub]

And by the way, if you are Currently employed and you apply for SS Disability, you WILL NOT GET IT.

[No-till Boss]

No, I will bet everything that I own that I am not.

It is a topic with which I am considerably familiar.

Besides, what kind of disability? You can't draw SS Disability unless you are either Permanently (40 total covered quarters) or Currently employed and a member.

Well, my wife is 46, and late this summer she said, do you realized how many couples, younger than us are on full disability ? I said, yes. I think it's easily 50% of the population here .

[BarryBobPosthole]

Its crazy how many people there are on SSI disability. And most of them can do amazing feats of physical activity despite their debilitating conditions, the parasitical assholes.

BKB

[No-till Boss]

Its crazy how many people there are on SSI disability. And most of them can do amazing feats of physical activity despite their debilitating conditions, the parasitical assholes.

BKB

If someone here, who works by the day, has a medical problem in their 40's, there is a good chance they will never work again.

[Buckrub]

For the record, just to be picky, SSI and SS Disability are not the same thing whatsoever.

[Thumper]

I've had bad posture all my life and couldn't tell you how many times I've been told to "stand up straight". It was always an effort and a bit uncomfortable to do so, but I figured it was just some sort of "laziness" on my part. When I went into the military, I had my entrance physical and was told I had Scoliosis. I have to admit, I had no clue what that was and it scared me a bit ... thought I had some deadly disease or something! The doc told me not to be alarmed, it's simply "curvature of the spine". About 10 years ago, I sold a 14" aluminum fishing boat to some dude who answered my Craig's List ad and he came over to pick it up with a utility trailer. I noted the handicapped tag hanging from his rear view mirror and commented it would be a lot of work, but I'll see if I can get it onto the trailer for him. He said between the two of us, it shouldn't really be a problem. I mentioned the tag and he said he hadn't worked in years due to Scoliosis, and that's why he wanted the boat, so he can do a bit of fishing. I know there are different levels of Scoliosis, but we loaded that boat with no problem and I couldn't tell there was one thing wrong with him at all. He then picked up the 15-HP outboard and put it in the back of his truck along with the mostly-full fuel tank. I have no clue how old this guy was, but my guess would be mid-30's.

I know a lady (a neighbor) who is single, but does not work (I've been here 26 years and have NEVER known her to work), but she's always out tinkering with her garden. I asked my (next door) neighbor what her disability was and he laughed, then said "allergies"! I laughed with him a bit, then said, "No, seriously." He then said he IS serious!

I have a family member (very distant) who worked for the Post Office. She's probably in her 50's now and has been on disability for probably 20-30 years! I can't even remember the official reason, but it boils down to "stress". Her sister who is a couple years younger and also worked for the Post Office, went on disability a year later for the same exact "ailment" and hasn't worked a day since. They live together and spend their days shopping or running back and forth to Vegas (their favorite thing to do).

This country is rife with this bullshit.

[Thumper]

For the record, just to be picky, SSI and SS Disability are not the same thing whatsoever.

That's true. I went onto SSD when I was 58 ... but I spent most of my time in and out of a hospital bed. When I turned 62, that became SSI. But, at least I'd paid into BOTH accounts my whole adult life.

[Buckrub]

No, that's not true either. Sorry.

SSI is Supplemental Security Income. It is a program administered by, but NOT funded by, the Social Security Administration. It is for two classes of people only..........A) those over 65 who never paid into Social Security (or didn't pay enough to be permanently insured), and B) those under 65 who never paid in either, but who can prove disability. This amount is $733 for every recipient, plus whatever your state MAY add to that.

Social Security Disability is for people either currently or permanently insured by Social Security and who can prove disability. When those people reach FRA, they cease to receive SS Disability payments and receive SS Retirement payments, at the same amount.

[Buckrub]

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/SSI.html

http://www.ssa.gov/redbook/eng/overview-disability.htm

[Thumper]

Heck, I don't know ... I was on SSD and it was automatically changed to "regular" Social Security when I turned 62. I guess I don't really pay much attention to it. I had always planned to retire and start drawing Social Security at 62 anyway.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Okay, that totally changes everything.

BKB

[LJ3]

Herb! You magnificent bastard! I read your book!

I think Mike Rowe has done as good a job as can be done in shedding light on this subject. Just the name of his site says it all. We are profoundly disconnected from what skills are needed for this country.

http://profoundlydisconnected.com/

[Buckrub]

Okay, that totally changes everything.

BKB

I SAID it was a picky point, you disagreeable snotbag. Where's my prime rib?

[Buckrub]

Herb! You magnificent bastard! I read your book!

I think Mike Rowe has done as good a job as can be done in shedding light on this subject. Just the name of his site says it all. We are profoundly disconnected from what skills are needed for this country.

http://profoundlydisconnected.com/

Very cool website, that I had no idea existed. Thanks Lenster!!!

[HideHunter]

I don't know of a program that will give aid and assistance to an able bodied 24 year old. If there is one, let me know what it is.

All it takes is creativity:

5586

this is just *one* of the more complicated scenarios...

I have a friend who just retired from a "Human Services" position.. You figure out a way to give money - they will figure out a way to take it.

I've been accused of having "no compassion"... mostly because I'm a "root hog or die" kind of guy.. You must forgive me for that - I grew up in an abusive home. There it was, "If you don't work - you don't eat." ... and I didn't have the option anyway - back then, you just "worked".

[Nandy]

We had training because on this company I work has everything from boomers to millennials and we have to learn how understand and manage all of those generations. I have come to thing that as general the millennials generation should be spelled me-lennials..

Read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

[Thumper]

Years ago, I had an employee in Los Angeles who was one of the best up and coming mechanics I'd ever had. Just a great, all-around employee. He walked into my office one day to submit his resignation and I was a bit shocked, because I thought he was pretty happy with us. He explained he loved his job and the people he worked with, then went on to thank me for the opportunities I'd given him. When I asked why he was quitting if he was so happy there, he explained his wife was pregnant and they really couldn't afford to have the baby if he was working! When they added up all the benefits, including full medical, etc. ... he could make more if he were unemployed! I offered a raise (a very NICE raise considering the fact he was fresh out of trade school and basically still in training), but I couldn't even come close to matching the benefits he AND his wife would receive if neither of them were working.

I was a fairly young manager at the time and never knew something like that was possible, but I received a quick (and shocking) education that day.

[BarryBobPosthole]

You had to be paying some piss poor wages for that to be true. Its a myth that you can 'make money' on welfare. You may make a temporary windfall here and there, but most of the slackers that we all hate that use the system aren't in it all that long and seldom drive the vehicles we hear about and don't buy steaks every day.

And this from a guy that has not yet gotten over feeling guilty for collecting unemployment. I just got off the big old titty in July. No way anybody could go to Tahiti on unemployment though. Otherwise My email would be FU.net.

BKB

[Thumper]

P-hole, to be totally honest, I really don't understand how that worked, but he laid it all out in front of me at the time. I couldn't pay him a whole lot as he was a young apprentice fresh out of trade school. I DO know, we didn't pay THAT low, but there are limits as to what a newbie can be paid, especially if I was training him! I do remember her due date was close and his company insurance would not have kicked in for 90-days. I have no clue how they were getting by while he was in school.

I can't really argue the point, because I just don't know the ins & outs of the "benefit game". I will say that I STILL get one hell of an education from the stories Lynn comes home with that she hears from her housekeepers, houseboys and maintenance people at the hotel. She's very close to them and is a trusted friend. I never had a frigging clue what was available out there and trust me, they KNOW the system and how to work it. Other than that ... I don't know squat about it.

I also remember the first time (actually the ONLY time) I ever filed for unemployment. I put it off as long as possible because I was too "embarrassed" to go in and apply. (true story) I was floored when I finally walked in and half the people in line were wearing business suits!

[BarryBobPosthole]

I felt entitled to it. That's how I overcame my guilt at taking it.

Imagine that.

I'm a good Democrat.

BKB

[Thumper]

Oh, TODAY I'd have no problem or hesitation at all. The time I'm referring to was back in the very early 80's and the whole concept was new to me. I felt like I was applying for food stamps or sumpin'.

[Buckrub]

You had to be paying some piss poor wages for that to be true. Its a myth that you can 'make money' on welfare. You may make a temporary windfall here and there, but most of the slackers that we all hate that use the system aren't in it all that long and seldom drive the vehicles we hear about and don't buy steaks every day.

And this from a guy that has not yet gotten over feeling guilty for collecting unemployment. I just got off the big old titty in July. No way anybody could go to Tahiti on unemployment though. Otherwise My email would be FU.net.

BKB

Some of your perceptions are good, and some are quite skewed. You need to research a bit more. Google the company in Seattle that decided to make $70K the minimum salary........and how disgruntled the workers were. And Google some of the McDonald's and Walmart employees who got raise to $15 an hour and how many wanted to refuse it because it would reduce their 'benefits'.

Yeah we spend too much on wars, so don't go there. I agree with you on that. But we've developed a system that is hurting those it is intended to help, REGARDLESS of how much they get............and the government has no business in the individual assistance business. Government is for the common good. But we're in it..........and it's sad how much we give out, and to whom, and for how long, and the qualifications. We've developed a class that can't get off of it, and that's not debatable. That is NOT a good system!

[Nandy]

Barry, DW will disagree with you so much. She is a front end manager for the fresh market which is a yupppie grocery store for rich people. they for long time would not take food stamps but in recent years they started and she can tell you she has regulars there, with food stamps, driving SUV's, buying filet mignon and other expensive food items. No sir, there IS money making in welfare, we have seen it with our own eyes in her family too. I cant explain it to you as I am not immersed on it but again, I seen people getting paid to go to school and all kind of other expenses and it is not just for a few months either.

[LJ3]

I felt entitled to it. That's how I overcame my guilt at taking it.

Imagine that.

I'm a good Democrat.

BKB

I took it with a smile on my face when I got laid off. I still wound up on the short end of what I've paid in during my career. Some lame ass checks from the guvmint.

[Thumper]

Ha ha Nandy! That is kinda a yuppie store. We go on Tuesdays to load up on hamburger (ground chuck). It's so lean, we usually have to add a bit of oil, depending on what we're cooking. We usually buy 10-15 lbs at a time and the butcher wraps them separately in 1 lb. packages (plastic/freezer paper) so we freeze them when we get home and don't even have to break the packages down. We just went this Tuesday and loaded up (2.99/lb) plus we had a coupon (on the back of our last receipt) for an additional 20% off! ;)

They have this special EVERY Tuesday:

http://www.thefreshmarket.com/tuesday-specials1

[Nandy]

She loads up when they have the ribeye on special plus her employee discount. I love ribeye steaks!!!!

[Thumper]

Yep, we like that store, but just buy specialty items. I love the (bulk) okra chips they sell there.

[FooBang]

You ain't wrong, Herb. There are corporate courses they offer executives to teach them how to deal with millennials' sense of entitlement. One fellow who worked for me came in three times asking for a raise and a promotion, a month before promotions were coming out. I told him that if he asked one more time, he'd better have his resume up to date.

I think they'll catch on. Business is business, and there's no room for special treatment. Millennials or not, there's always another person waiting to do the job. The sooner they catch on to that, the easier time they'll have.

[Buckrub]

You had to be paying some piss poor wages for that to be true. Its a myth that you can 'make money' on welfare. You may make a temporary windfall here and there, but most of the slackers that we all hate that use the system aren't in it all that long and seldom drive the vehicles we hear about and don't buy steaks every day.

And this from a guy that has not yet gotten over feeling guilty for collecting unemployment. I just got off the big old titty in July. No way anybody could go to Tahiti on unemployment though. Otherwise My email would be FU.net.

BKB

Still say it's a myth?