Gun Control Quershun

[BarryBobPosthole]

I know what the 'gun show loophole' is, and i know how the background check process (doesn't) works, but I don't think I've heard of what they're calling the 'strawman purchases'. Can someone explain what that one is about?

BKB

[Thumper]

I see you're watching the debates. :)

Let's say I have a buddy who has a domestic violence conviction and cannot legally buy a hand gun, so he asks if I can buy one for him and he'll pay me for it. If I did him the favor, it would be a straw purchase.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Ah okay. Its already illegal ain't it?

BKB

[BarryBobPosthole]

And thanks!
BKB

[Chicken Dinner]

Yes, already illegal. I'm curious as to what the numbers are on straw purchases and crime.

[BarryBobPosthole]

One of the problems with the whole issue is the lack of information. Much of the data that's needed to understand these issues can't be created because we don't allow information about it to be gathered. In the name of preventing gun control.

And while I am pretty strong on believing that is part of the problem, I'm not at all sure where I stand on that part.

BKB

[Thumper]

Ah okay. Its already illegal ain't it?

BKB

All states are different of course, but here in Florida I can basically sell to anybody as far as I know. Not a minor of course, but I don't have to do a background check on anybody. If I buy a gun from a private party at a gun show, no paperwork has to be done. That's different if it's a bonafide dealer at a gun show.

[DeputyDog]

Thump, those are two different things. A straw purchase is just like you described and it's a federal thing. You would be guilty if you "knowingly" purchased a firearm for a person you knew to be prohibited from making that purchase themselves.

It's a lot like back in the day when you were a teenager and you'd hang out outside the liquor store and give someone a few bucks to buy you a case of beer.

The problem with this is that it is a legitimate concern, but doesn't seem to be one of the ATF's focus points.

[Thumper]

Thump, those are two different things.

Yeah, true Deppity ... I should have elaborated.

Example: I have a buddy who lives here in the neighborhood and he's a huge gun collector. We always attended gun shows together and he had been looking for a particular gun at every show we attended. One weekend his nephew was hospitalized (this was maybe 7-8 years ago) and my neighbor and his wife were at the hospital, so he couldn't attend the show. As fate would have it, I stumbled on the particular gun he had been looking for. I called his cell phone and told him about it, described it the best I could (this was before camera phones) and he asked me to buy it for him. I knew him personally and knew he did not have any sort of record (he prolly has about as many guns as Cappy!) and had no problem buying the gun for him. I guess "technically", that was still a "straw purchase". Correct? Or is it only a "straw purchase" if it's knowingly for someone with a record?

[BarryBobPosthole]

I don't think that's the kind of gun sales they are trying to prevent. If I understand it correctly, its more like what DD was talking about. If your neighbor couldn't buy it himself because of a felony conviction, for example, and you bought it for him, then that's putting guns in the hamds of criminals, which is supposed to be illegal in this country. Its a way around the NICS database checks that we have.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to making e isting background checks more effective. Problem is, I'm not sure how to do that.

Since I've had guns stolen, It still baffles me as to how a stolen firearm can be bought and sold so far under the radar. You never hear of people getting popped for buying stolen firearms. That should be changed. Its the same thing as buying a stolen car. But for some reason, we are all against fixing that problem again in the name of being against gun control!
We don't need more laws, we just need to make the existing ones work better!
BKB

[Thumper]

The only question I have P-hole, is how do you REALLY know a friend (or neighbor in my case) REALLY has no record? I mean, here for instance, there are no background checks between private parties. I can walk out on the street right now and sell one of my guns and be back here in my office in 15 minutes. (all theoretically speaking of course) How do I know who I am selling to? Or for that matter, how do I know he's not buying for someone else? I'm not really sure where the dividing line is for a "straw purchase" if there's no paperwork involved anyway. What's the difference between me selling to an unknown individual and selling to an unknown individual buying for another unknown individual? It all seems too simple to me and I agree ... maybe it's TOO simple and should be tightened up. Of course that's a hassle I'd rather not have to worry about as a seller OR a buyer.

[DeputyDog]

The thing is, any gun sale not through a FFL has no paper trail. I've ran traces on several guns that have been involved in any number of crimes, and a lot of the time, the only thing that shows up is the transfer from the manufacturer to the distributor then to the original purchaser. The only way to combat this is to require that all gun sales go through a FFL which would create that "database" of gun owners.

It's one of those things that used the proper way could help, but in the wrong hands, could be a problem.

I'd imagine that if any of your stolen guns were to be recovered and a trace ran on them, given the length of time they've been gone, they have been through the hands of several criminals, but the trace would still end with you. That's if you even purchased them through a FFL.

[Thumper]

True. I have another buddy who refuses to buy a gun through a dealer. He's a good guy and certainly has no criminal record, but he's one of those far right types who despises government intrusion into his life. ALL of his guns (and he has a ton of them) were bought through private parties with no paperwork being done. That's the ONLY way he'll do it. But, then again, it's a bit easier for him since he's mostly into collector stuff or "vintage" firearms anyway. Anything he has that's "new" is a gun someone bought years ago and never fired it. He will buy a 20-30 year old gun that's still "new in the box" with no paperwork.

[airbud7]

What about my woodsmaster that was stole back in the 70s...a police report was filed and I collected insurance...I am sure someone is deer hunting with it somewhere.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I think they need to do away with some of this FFL stuff and allow ordinary citizens to query the NICS database to see if guns are stolen. That way, if it is and you knowingly buy stolen property, then its on your dime.
There's really no reason to not register firearms in a database and transfer title to them when we sell them just like we do cars. If the government ever wants to know who has guns, then they damn sure have other ways to find out other than that.

BKB

[BarryBobPosthole]

What about my woodsmaster that was stole back in the 70s...a police report was filed and I collected insurance...I am sure someone is deer hunting with it somewhere.

Man I hate that. Still pisses me off to think about it.

BKB

[DeputyDog]

The list of stolen guns wouldn't be on the NICS system, it would be in NCIC which is very tightly controlled and even LE has to have a reason to check things in that system. Even in my work, I have to give a case number or other reference number to be able to run a criminal history on a person. I can't just run a check on someone without having a verifiable reason.

AirBud, the bad thing is, even if that gun is recovered today and is in good shape, you'll never see it again. Once you collect on insurance, they own it, not you.

[Thumper]

If the government ever wants to know who has guns, then they damn sure have other ways to find out other than that. BKB


How is that? Ask the neighbors?

[BarryBobPosthole]

d
The list of stolen guns wouldn't be on the NICS system, it would be in NCIC which is very tightly controlled and even LE has to have a reason to check things in that system. Even in my work, I have to give a case number or other reference number to be able to run a criminal history on a person. I can't just run a check on someone without having a verifiable reason.

AirBud, the bad thing is, even if that gun is recovered today and is in good shape, you'll never see it again. Once you collect on insurance, they own it, not you.

Then thats the system ordinary people need access to. And I mean to check whether a gun is hot or not, not to run a check on the person who I might be buying it from.

[airbud7]

AirBud, the bad thing is, even if that gun is recovered today and is in good shape, you'll never see it again. Once you collect on insurance, they own it, not you.




:crybaby