Serious Sunday

[BarryBobPosthole]

One of the issues both campaigns are making hay over is international trade and using trade deals to 'bring back jobs to America' and at the same time fight the idea of 'globalization'. Having worked in an offshoring environment for several years, I don't think either party has a fucking clue and can't really do anything practical that'll bring any jobs back. And globalization isn't some frame of mind or economic theory. Globalization is the simple fact that many emerging countries, like those in Asia and South America and Mexico, have invested in creating an educated work force that will work for wages that are a fourth of what Americans are paid. How does America plan to tell any American company that has to compete globally with other companies that they cannot access those workers?
The sole driver of all job offshoring projects is labor costs. Period. Its not some evil master plan nor is it driven by any beliefs that one worker is more productive, more highly skilled, or unionized or not. Its driven by stockholders that vote with their feet when companies don't have ever improving EBITDA. And there is no protectionist policy that will prevent it from happening.
Now, this doesn't mean I agree that offshoring is the answer to everything, in fact I think we'll companies ebb and flow with their offshore workforces as they try to find the best mix. Offshore = BAD customer service and somewhere, somebody will figure out how to make an offshore backoffice work while providing a semblence of service with someone not named Ralph with an
East indian accent over the phone. But that is an evolutionary force in business and is hardly ever planned with any intelligence.
Anyway, the whole trade issue in this campaign is a giant red herring IMO. There are no t's and c's in a trade agreement that can overcome the simple economics of cheap labor. The only thing that will bring those jobs back are those company's customers and stockholders. And it looks like they will vote one way at the ballot box and the other way at the bank or store.

BKB

[Big Muddy]

Well, one thing is for day'um sure, NO entrenched politician has or will be able to make any progress on that issue.....soooooo, let's give a successful business man a go at it....day'um sure can't hurt anything.....jmho.

[BarryBobPosthole]

If that successful businessman hadn't been one of the ones benefitting in a big way from offshoring American jobs I might agree with you.

BKB

[Big Muddy]

You'll have to show me your proof about that one.

[Thumper]

I'm kinda busy with eBay this morning and don't really have time to think this through, but I've thought about this quite a bit lately ... just never have taken the time to really THINK about the positives vs. negatives.

When I first went to Thailand in the early 70's, domestically made products were pretty cheap, but much of the imported stuff was off the charts. Now, frankly, I don't remember the details as I was in my early 20's and didn't pay much attention to the complete tax situation (it was also the days before the internet and easy research). I lived in the village and mostly lived off the local economy anyway, so it didn't affect me much, UNTIL I went to buy a dirt bike! That's when I found out about the 100% import tax! Now I'm sure it varied with certain products, but as I said, I was not really all that educated on the subject. But, I wanted a 125cc Honda XL (street & trail type bike). Of course it was imported from Japan and I have no clue what it cost back then, but just figure, if it was a $700 motorcycle, I'd have paid $1400! That's a lot considering I was making $320/month at the time! Now, imagine what an imported car would cost! TV's, radios .. whatever.

Ok, this sounds like a BAD thing, correct? Well, that was the early 70's. Now, when I go to Thailand, they have bazillions of manufacturing plants. Cars? They have a plant for all of 'em! Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda ... you name it ... it's built there. The same for motorcycles. There are television and various electronics plants scattered all over Bangkok. As long as it's built "in country" ... they don't pay that massive import tax. That's one hell of an incentive for foreign manufacturers to set up shop there. It's also a huge boost to employment. BTW, if you are not a citizen of Thailand, you cannot work there IF you are performing a job that can be filled by a Thai citizen. If you own a business there, you MUST hire Thai citizens as employees unless it's a position that cannot be filled locally (as in a high tech type position, etc). Foreigners also cannot legally own property ... 100% of Thailand (land) is owned by Thai citizens (or the Thai government). If I wanted to buy a house/property, the only way I could do it is to be married to a Thai citizen. Now, a foreigner can own a condo, as long as a minimum of 50% of the building (condos) are owned by Thai citizens. (they can RENT those condos to foreigners) They also have a saying ... "once a Thai, ALWAYS a Thai", which means, if you were born a Thai, you will ALWAYS be a Thai citizen, even if you move to a foreign country and become a citizen of that country. You will essentially have dual citizenship and if you should have a change of heart in the future, you can return to Thailand at any time as you retain your citizenship for life.

Ok, I realize Thailand is officially a "second world country", but I can see where some of their policies would work as positives here. The tax situation has changed there since I first went there in '71, but their import tax is still anywhere from 0% - 80%, depending on the product. There is also a 7% VAT (I won't even get into CIF/FOB, etc. etc), but there is still a high tax on non-critical imports ... I guess you could call it a "luxury tax" in a way, but I don't think we'd consider a Honda CRF450X a "luxury" here in the states ... we think more along the lines of a Rolls or Lambo!

Look at it this way, why should we let a foreign country bring their product into our country with very little import duty, yet if we send our domestically made products to their country, there is a massive tax attached to it? Don't you think if we taxed the fuck out of China for anything they shipped here, it would become more economical for us to build it here ... or at least for the Chinese to build their plants here and provide jobs for our citizens as well as add to the local economy? Either that, or their products would no longer be desirable here. Sure, there is a LOT of tweaking that would need to be done and you still have to figure there would be a jump in prices for many things, but competition will handle the pricing situation and find a balance down the line.

At least I've provided a bit of fodder to kick around.

[Big Muddy]

So, what????.... looks like smart business sense to me.

[Thumper]

Now that's about as big a paragraph of opposites as I've ever seen. Let's tax the shit out of importers of foreign products knowing that good old capitalistic competition will even things out in the long run. BKB

Well, there's always the good old Democratic way ... just keep on keeping on ... no change ... status quo.

SOMETHING has to change. The problem is, change almost always hurts one way or another (until you get used to it), but OBVIOUSLY what we're doing now sure isn't working worth a fuck (unless you're a Democrat ... then all is fine, just ask Obama).

Face it, when the current administration figures high school drop-outs should be paid $15/hour to flip burgers at MacD's ... chances are the $1.00 menu board will become a thing of the past. The way things are today, if it says "Made in USA" on the label, there's a pretty dang good chance it's going to be priced higher than the competition. China doesn't have to follow the same labor and environmental we're required to follow, so we can't compete. hell, they can build it, package it, ship it all the way from the other side of the earth and STILL sell their products here cheaper than we can build that same product ourselves. Heck, if YOU owned a manufacturing business and it cost YOU a penny to make a paper clip, but you can make 100 of them in China and bring them to market here for that same penny ... WTF would YOU do? And if you take the high and mighty route and say you'd build your paper clips here anydamnway, how long would you remain in business? Until we make it more economically feasible to do business in THIS country, this country isn't going to do squat in the manufacturing field. SOMETHING has to change ... or at minimum, the playing field will have to be leveled. Otherwise, we'll just continue on our current course.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Well, it seems to be one of the legs of Trump's three legged milking stool of a platform. Globilazation is a bad word that was bandied about and Trump promised to reverse the adverse affects of a global economy on our economy. He's going to bring back coal and coal mining of which those pesky Chinese, whom we're going to tax the ever loving shit out of, are our largest buyer of our coal and also the world's largest consumer of it. I'm sure the market will correct itself though.

But to my original point, I suppose if making money off the backs of those who lost not just jobs but careers to offshoring is a being a smart businessman, then Trump ought to be your man.

BKB

[Thumper]

WTF??? P-hole, I have to apologize, I think I may have pulled a Pumphead move, not sure. When I made the above post, it showed as a post from YOU! Huh? I don't know how that happened, but I copied the post, then deleted it and re-posted. It then showed as MY post, but YOUR post disappeared! This thread makes no sense now. I really don't know if it was a software blip or what happened persactly.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Well, there's always the good old Democratic way ... just keep on keeping on ... no change ... status quo.

SOMETHING has to change. The problem is, change almost always hurts one way or another (until you get used to it), but OBVIOUSLY what we're doing now sure isn't working worth a fuck (unless you're a Democrat ... then all is fine, just ask Obama).

Face it, when the current administration figures high school drop-outs should be paid $15/hour to flip burgers at MacD's ... chances are the $1.00 menu board will become a thing of the past. The way things are today, if it says "Made in USA" on the label, there's a pretty dang good chance it's going to be priced higher than the competition. China doesn't have to follow the same labor and environmental we're required to follow, so we can't compete. hell, they can build it, package it, ship it all the way from the other side of the earth and STILL sell their products here cheaper than we can build that same product ourselves. Heck, if YOU owned a manufacturing business and it cost YOU a penny to make a paper clip, but you can make 100 of them in China and bring them to market here for that same penny ... WTF would YOU do? And if you take the high and mighty route and say you'd build your paper clips here anydamnway, how long would you remain in business? Until we make it more economically feasible to do business in THIS country, this country isn't going to do squat in the manufacturing field. SOMETHING has to change ... or at minimum, the playing field will have to be leveled. Otherwise, we'll just continue on our current course.

Jim, I've never said anywhere I think we ought to make our paperclips here. I'm saying the offshoring of jobs and moves of manufacturing to countries where it is cheaper to do business is a consequence of an expanding global market. If an emerging market country, like the Czech Republic for example, wants to pour lots of money into creating an educated workforce and wants to tip the scales by offering other financial incentives we don't offer here, then how is that different than a state like Oklahoma doing the same and offering huge tax breaks? I hate offshoring more than anybody here. I've sat across a desk from friends who were like family and told them they were losing their jobs, and with what we paid at Verizon chances weren't good they'd find anything that paid comparably. And I've done that HUNDREDS of times, not dozens. It breaks your heart. But after struggling with my own conscience for years for being a part of that, I've came to the conclusion that globalization is inevitable and we can only be protectionist to a certain point. The global economy will move on without us.
One last example: TMobile is a US competitor in the US wireless market. So is Verizon Wireless. T Mobile is owned by Deutche Telecom. Would it be fair to tax the shit out of T Mobile just ot offset their cheaper labor costs if they're allowed to use offshore assets in eastern europe while Verizon Wireless is not allowed to use the same? Or even has to pay more to do the same?

Stop editing my posts, Pumphead!
BKb

[Thumper]

I'm busy as all get-out and we're supposed to be headed over to have a late lunch with friends while watching the Indy (NASCAR) race today, so I don't have time to play.

BTW ... WTF is it with all this danged advertising. Someone mentioned it the other day in another post and complained about the ball stadiums being named after some business (like FedEx Field, Bank of America Stadium, etc) ... or it may have been the bowl game, like wanting to go back to the "Orange Bowl" for example. Well, it's the same with racing these days. I know what the Daytona 500 is. I know what the Firecracker 400 is, etc, but these days, the name changes annually, or until the sponsorship changes. As for Indy, NASCAR doesn't have the long history that the "Indy Cars" have there, so "The Brickyard" is fine with me. What is today's race called? "CROWN ROYAL PRESENTS THE COMBAT WOUNDED COALITION 400 AT THE BRICKYARD"!!!

Ok, I have no problem with the cause itself, but give me a f'ing break. "Hey Thump, what are you doing this weekend?"

"Oh, I'm watching the "Crown Royal presents the Combat Wounded Coalition 400 at The Brickyard" on the teevee and havin' a beer with bolt peanuts!"