A scary thought for you coffee drinkers.

[Chicken Dinner]

Careful, Barry. Folks get uncomfortable when you point out Trump’s obvious hypocrisy.


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[quercus alba]

All politicians are hypocrites, liars and thieves. There are many worse than Trump and some better, none named Clinton however

[Chicken Dinner]

I was as big a critic of the Clinton’s as anyone. But, that doesn’t get Trump a free pass. We wouldn’t accept “everybody else was doing it” from our children and we shouldn’t from our leaders either.


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[airbud7]

Oklahoma is the only state that voted totally Republican in every County for the past 4 elections...

Barry voted for Hillary!.....hahahhahaha!

[Arty]

If trump doesn’t fix this stuff going on with China, we will all be making joe Biden jokes in 2020.
Then we can criticize him for all the things that we let trump slide on.



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[Thumper]

Ya’ ever heard the term “nip it in the bud”? China should have been “nipped” a LONG time ago, but nobody’s ever had the balls. Now that they’re so huge and out of control, I have no clue how to reign them back in. At least someone is finally trying to stand up to them and put the squeeze on those counterfeiting, reverse-engineering, patent-ignoring, proprietary property thieving, currency manipulating, communist m-f’ers. The problem is, since it’s gone on so long, they have such a tight squeeze on our balls, it’s gonna hurt like hell to pull away. So what do you do, just let ‘em keep squeezing while you simply wince in pain and continue to put up with their bullshit? Or go through the intense pain as you jerk your balls from their grip then suffer through the healing process? Or is status quo still acceptable?

[BarryBobPosthole]

What has happened to make you think China is ‘out of control’ and ‘so big I’m not sure there is anything we can do’. It was almost $300B in 2008. (its $495B now) We heard zip nada zero zilch from any Republicans on this issue in 2008, nor did we hear of it until 2016. Now all the sudden its a raging problem.
The trade deficit is an issue but it can’t be fixed with tariffs. We face the same issues with the huge differences in labor costs across the emerging third world countries, like the Czech Republic and the Pi, and India. How many jbs are outsourced there? I can tell you tens of thousands are being moved offshore in telecom. Hundreds of thousands in IT.

BKB

[Thumper]

I'm no expert on these issues, but I suppose "tit-for-tat" would be acceptable. Since I've lived there and have personal experience, I'll use Thailand as an example. There are motorcycle and motor vehicle manufacturing plants all over Thailand. I'd be willing to bet ALL the major manufacturers have plants there. So, any major manufacturer will have their products available for purchase. The rub is, they don't build ALL of their model options there, so you're stuck with whatever is manufactured domestically. BUT, you CAN import anything you want. The problem, if it ain't built in Thailand, your import fees (including all your duties, stamps, permits, etc. etc.) will amount to 200% of the price of the vehicle! (that percentage is based on the bottom line, which also includes the shipping fees!) The result is, unless you're filthy rich, you buy "domestic" products.

As far as immigration is concerned, you can move there and live/retire there (as long as you meet the legal restrictions) BUT you have to show proof that you can support yourself (minimum provable annual income) as well as maintain at least $25,000 - $30,000 (850,000 Baht --- USD varies by current exchange rate) in the bank. That way, if you experience some sort of major life changing event, you can afford to get back home. You are also REQUIRED to have and maintain medical insurance. In other words, you have to prove you will not become a "ward of the state". You are also not allowed to work in the country unless you have a job that a Thai National cannot fill. (A Rocket Scientist comes to mind) The most common job foreigners can fill over there are English teachers for example. It's basically a fairly developed third world country, but I think they're a bit smarter than we are when it comes to protecting themselves. BTW, cross their border illegally and your ass is grass ... as well it should be imho.

Now in MY mind, if I'm manufacturing a Thumpmobile and want to export my product to Thailand, I have a choice of building a Thumpmobile plant there and hire all Thai employees (except for whatever upper management positions could not be covered by a Thai) ... OR, understand that anything I export will cost triple to the consumer. Take it or leave it. IF I want to do business in Thailand, I have to INVEST in Thailand and it's infrastructure as well as supply jobs to the local population.

You get the idea of where I'm coming from. As ONE example, if we export a US made automobile to China right now, they charge us a 40% import tax. Why 40%? To "F" with Trump, BUT ... before the 40% kicked in, they charged 25% for US built cars, yet the standard rate for all other manufactures is and has been, 15%. Why did WE have to deal with the 25% tariff? Because WE have always been led by wimpy-assed Washington pussies who had no balls and were afraid to do anything about it. That's just ONE of MANY examples. Again, I have zero problem with tit-for-tat. F-'em.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Interesting that you bring up cars. Do you recall what the China import tariff was on US cars before Trump started this trade war?

BKB

[Thumper]

It's a fact, the United States pays a 25% tariff on cars sent to China, but China only pays 2.5 percent on cars coming into the United States.

Once Trump started F'ing with them, China raised that 25% up to 40%. My main point is, all other car manufacturers have always paid only 15% and the whole time they were paying 15%, we were paying 25%.

Just like statistics, you can many times juggle numbers around to support most any point you want to make. For example, the numbers above don't mean much when you look at it ONE way .... considering China really doesn't export many cars. I think automobile manufacturing is one thing they just haven't gotten their heads wrapped around yet. What they do export, are basically Volvo's I believe.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I had thought though that they had actually lowered that quite a bit, but it was temporary. Maybe I dreamed it! Its possible.

BKb

[Thumper]

TBH, I haven't followed it too closely, but I believe what they lowered was that 40% number. Raising it was their knee-jerk reaction to Trump's tariffs, then after some negotiations, they brought it back down to the previous 25% level until "we" get the shit straightened out. BUT ... even at the "lower" 25%, we're STILL paying 10% more than any other country for auto imports into the country. Typical Chinese and all these years, we've been letting them get away with it.

[HideHunter]

I once said: “Our current state of red/blue politics is like the final throes of a bad marriage. It’s become not about achieving reconciliation, or even an end, but how much pain can be inflicted before one side walks away…”

Okay, it wasn't me - but a very wise man who shows up here occasionally.. Will .. 1/24/2013

I'm telling you people.. (this is actually me).. "We" (as in 50% +-) just see things *differently*. I have a couple "token" liberal friends and we discuss this regularly.. We just flat don't see things the same way.

[Chicken Dinner]

I don’t see things as any of you and it’s getting pretty lonely for us Independents. I just wish all you Reds and Blues would get your civil war over with so we can get on with things.


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[Thumper]

My brother (a flaming Democrat) has lived in Northern California (suburb of San Francisco) for the past 45 years. The last time he visited my house he looked at my gun case (with 8 long guns and 4 handguns) and just stood there shaking his head. I then told him that’s just a few of them, the rest are in the safe. He looked at me and asked why I need so many guns. I then told him I DON’T need them. He then said, “Then why do you have them?”

I answered with, “ Because I like them and I WANT them!”

He just gave me an incredulous look and shook his head. He just couldn’t wrap his head around the concept no matter how much we “discussed” the subject.

[BarryBobPosthole]

My wife does that and asks the exact same question when she looks at all my fishing rods.

She’s a democrat too, so you must be right.

BKB

[BarryBobPosthole]

My wife does that and asks the exact same question when she looks at all my fishing rods.

She’s a democrat too, so you must be right.

BKB

[Thumper]

You can generally spot a Liberal from a mile away. They have a habit of repeating themselves.


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[BarryBobPosthole]

And dammit I try to catch it before you do every time and missed one.

Dufus.

BkB

[quercus alba]

well Posty, I may not agree with all your politics (you tend to bring too facts to the party) but I'm still planning on sending you some fig preserves soon. Unless of course, you won't accept them from a right wingnut

[BarryBobPosthole]

I look forward to your sweet wife’s fig preserves every year QA! The first thing I always do is make a pan of hot biscuits.

BKb

[BarryBobPosthole]

I look forward to your sweet wife’s fig preserves every year QA! The first thing I always do is make a pan of hot biscuits.

BKb

[BarryBobPosthole]

And just to keep the news current......be best!

BKb

E4E12781-89D7-4920-8CF6-FD1DB21188FE.jpg

[Thumper]

I look forward to your sweet wife’s fig preserves every year QA! The first thing I always do is make a pan of hot biscuits.

BKb

Your noticer skills are lacking!



Your noticer skills are lacking!

[Penguin]

.... it can’t be fixed with tariffs.
BKB

I change that Posty: "It can't be fixed with only tariffs."

And I'd add that it cannot be fixed at all without them. But a lot depends upon what you mean by the word fixed. If we mean put things back together to the way things went for the last few decades where millions sat by while their livelihoods were shipped overseas, the stability of a whole lot more was put in jeopardy by the importation of millions for indentured servitude, all the while an elite reaped the benefits of this lopsided system? That ain't gonna happen brother.

Those of us with a bird's eye view of US heavy industry watched horrified at what was happening. We warned that once you strip mined this economy it was dead in the water. That replacing it with Wall Street cons and financial fever dreams and bubble economics would result in a violent backlash. We were laughed at and ignored. Now that we were proven correct the guilty parties who pushed this lunacy want a mulligan. They want a do-over.

Good luck with that.

And if you mean "fixed" as in going back to the days of US industrial might where one breadwinner could provide for a normal sized family? A world where decent healthcare and employment and a solid future for your kids was in the cards? Where about 5% of the world population in the US continue to use about 25% of the world's energy in order to prop up our standard of living at the cost of everyone else? Well that ain't gonna happen either. There is a price to be paid for throwing out a system where men literally fought and died to force change upon unwilling elites. And a price to be paid for trading it all for the tender mercies of the so-call "free market". There is also the problem of timing... this ain't the US where citizens took control of their own destiny and this ain't the world in which that action took place.

Right now this nation is dominated by rackets. Health-care, education, housing, banking, etc, etc, etc. And don't get me started on how much we spend on defense and what we have decided to accomplish with that investment. Right now the parasitical nature of all of these rackets has weakened us to the point of collapse. And no, we aren't going to fix most of that by enforcing trade fairness on China. But until we start attacking these centers of graft and corruption (which includes the way the rich have gotten richer by hurting productive sectors of the economy) we cannot even start repairing the damage.

I rarely do this, but I am going to put up a link to a post that I think captures my opinion on how we have handled out relationship with China. I think it captures the unvarnished truth as seen by someone with unique insight into Asian culture and its people: http://scholars-stage.blogspot.com/2...king-dead.html

Will

[quercus alba]

I look forward to your sweet wife’s fig preserves every year QA! The first thing I always do is make a pan of hot biscuits.

BKb

And bacon, let’s not forget the bacon ��

[Thumper]

I miss your regular insertions here Willy. Good read, but it's one of those things I had to read twice (my mush-for-a-brain needs extra time to absorb some writings). Many parts remind me of the frustration I faced while speaking at a National Parts & Service Manager's Meeting back in the late 70's. I was speaking directly to the GM brass attending and said if we don't get off our asses and quit producing SHIT products only because we know we can shove them down consumer's throats due to ZERO competition, our auto industry, as we know it. is doomed. I was laughed of the stage! I remember my face was beet red ... partly from frustration and partly from embarrassment. I started second-guessing myself and wondering if it was ME that was an idiot. Needless to say, we've been playing catch-up ever since and have even had to come up with government bail-outs to save our domestic auto industry. It seems we are a complacent society (or simply lazy?) until we realize what we once had, no longer exists ... and may never again exist.

One paragraph of your attachment really stood out to me:

"Shaping what China is" was not a inherently bad strategy. The attempt to co-opt Chinese upper class, cajole Party leadership into liberalizing their economy, incentivize the Chinese to have a "stakehold" in a system of norms and institutions that we created decades earlier, and infect their population with an irrepressible love for liberty was not doomed at conception. It was a cagey gambit. This gambit came very close to succeeding. This is why the Party leaders reacted so violently against it.

I believe that was actually accomplished with Hong Kong ... and the (communist) Chinese are are playing hell figuring out what to do with a population that has experienced "liberty" and wants no part of giving that up. I have no idea how that mess is going to end. The world is watching so China has to walk on eggshells here IMHO.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Good post Willy, and I will have to sit down this evening and digest it.

My point about tariffs isn’t that tariffs can’t be part of an equalization strategy where trade concerned. My main point though is, unless you have a time machine, there ain’t no going back to the good old days of out-producing everyone else in the world.
And ‘globalization’ isn’t a strategy that anyone is responsible for (nor is smart enough to do anyway). Its the emergence of third world countries into the world of trade. The simple fact is: where materials, and manpower, and yes de-regulation are at levels that we can’t or won’t match, the markets will naturally move to those economies where profits can be maximized. It’s not an evil plot, it’s not because of the foolishness of our leaders, and it can’t be fixed by implementing economic myopia and closing our ranks. We have to find new ways to compete. Free trade doesn’t solve it either, but the freer the better.

So....I was pointing out that simplistic solutions, like having a trade war and imposing tariffs won’t fix this complex problem.

And we compete against many ‘planned economies’ throughout the world. What, so we must shut our doors and let our competitors figure out how to do business there? Is that what. i on had in mind when he opened the door to China and much of Asia in the 70’s?

A third rate real estate tycoon, no matter how successful a cheater he was in business, ain’t gonna come in and set e everything right either.

BKB

[Thumper]

A third rate real estate tycoon, no matter how successful a cheater he was in business, ain’t gonna come in and set e everything right either. BKB

The point is, at least he's trying to do SOMETHING. Heck, why not? A Hollywood movie star took a pretty big bite out of the power of the Soviet Union when nobody else could.

As for China, two oil tycoons, a corrupt ex-Governor of Arkansas and a Community Organizer couldn't accomplish crapola (never even tried) ... why isn't it worth letting a "third rate real estate tycoon" take a stab at it?

Or is status quo acceptable?

[BarryBobPosthole]

Because the idiotic plan of his is going to require a number of bailouts of various industries that are betting screwed over. If you think the EU will stand for this bullshit, then you are really smoking something good. So then we’ll have a trade war with everyone.

BKB