OBummer care did nothing to fix this. Other than collect a tax for bring a "John Wayne" type. And I'd be willing to bet you most of those fines "taxes" would never get collected. But we would have 1600 new IRS agents tracking the non payments....Originally Posted by Penguin
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A Government that pays people to do nothing destorys their willingness to do anything!
We should step up and actually negotiate an end to this type of bullshit. Failing that we should either outlaw exports or allow imports... depending on one's economic outlook. Or slap tariffs on their incoming goods to make things even out. What should absolutely not do is allow this parasitic behavior to continue.
Trade done in fair ways is hard work. It is frustrating to get real deals done. It makes you negotiate with those who have objectives diametrically opposed to you. But it is worth doing.
What we have done for the last 40 years is just agree to anything that makes it more difficult for our productive economy to compete. Just so long as we figure out a way to protect our financial sector and make sure they get their share of graft when the tally is taken.
Will
Won't work.
Here are your three choices. Pick only one:
1. Stop producing new drugs and procedures.
2. Keep producing and paying for them ourselves.
3. Invade and take their share of it forcibly.
No other viable choice.
Pick one.
I honestly thought this ~might~ be one of the few things that ACA got right. And in the end they fucked this up too.
But I kept hearing anarchists and right wingers railing against "gubmint making them buy insurance". All along this is one area where I just don't and won't agree. Everybody pays... cause in the end every is going to get treatment if they need it.
Will
There is a viable choice. If you want R&D to continue and think it important, then you slap an import tariff on them and make them pay up!
What the hell?
Will
.
Then you are going to has to repel Klintons NAFTA
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A Government that pays people to do nothing destorys their willingness to do anything!
Good. It should have never been enacted in the first place.
Our so called Free Trade Pacts are filled with examples just like this. Time after time US workers/citizens getting it in the shorts while connected and powerful interests make billions hand over fist. One after another these things tilt the playing field in favor of our trading partners.
Will
I've pretty much avoided getting involved with this particular controversy only because it has no effect on me personally. That may sound "selfish", but I just have the feeling there's nothing I can do about it. I voted against the asshole and was outvoted, so I did what I could .. to no avail. MY health coverage will not be affected in any way and Lynn's company (Hyatt) says there will be no change in their coverage (which has held true so far), so I've concentrated on other pressing personal issues and steered away from this subject a bit. I'll simply go on the record to say we now have the most incompetent President in my lifetime ... and quite possibly the worst in the history of this country. He's done more harm to this country than he's done good ... in fact, I can't think of ANYTHING he's done "good" for the country.
That said, Penguin ... I REALLY appreciate and admire your intelligent input and insight. Interesting reading IMHO.
Pretty sure he already has a girlfriend Jimmy, that's kinda gross.
I wish I understood half of what Willie did about global economies. I lack the time, and most likely the ability, to understand things at that global view.
I do think reform is less likely as time passes.
If we all threw our problems in a pile, and you saw everyone else's problems-- you'd take yours back.
DAMN!!
Willy,
I don't think your ideas are bad. I just can't help but think you are a starry eyed liberal if you think any of that is remotely possible.
I see the pendulum way more towards total appeasement rather than towards any of your ideas. Who on the horizon would even consider implementing those ideas?
Chilly Willie, BS. Was it perfect? Hell no! Why? Government control and people who didn't pay. Now there will be more government and less people that pay.
Yes some people don't deserve health care. PERIOD.
A man gets one great horse and one great dog in his life, a damn lucky man might get two.
I don't care what the problem is. The answer is not insurance. If anyone thinks we need insurance, there's problem but insurance is NOT the answer.
Starry eyed liberal? Bah! That is the background ideology speaking. It infiltrates everything it seems.
Taking control of trade and seeing to it that it actually benefits US workers/citizens is not liberalism, it the job of anyone elected to office in this country. What we call "Free Trade" is nothing more than international wage arbitrage. We have seen to it that trade intentionally knocks down the standard of living for US workers... and then act shocked when the middle class actually starts winding down. WTF? That is what it was designed to do. Only the most simpleton of citizens still buys the neoliberal garbage that the economic anarchists and Ayn Rand disciples spew.
Over the past 3 or 4 decades that we have been executing this grand experiment it has played out exactly like all of those manufacturers and nationalists and union members and all those other unsophisticated know-nothings said it would. It has been a complete disaster. The only thing that masked it was a series of bubbles and an evergrowing household debt. When those came to an end? Stagnation. The only thing keeping us out of a complete full blown depression is the public debt. At this point there are no good options. There is only what we want to look like at the end.
Right now there are 3 areas where the US is ~so~ uncompetitive that we simply cannot continue business as usual and expect to survive intact: Health care, education, and housing. We pay more for these things than any other nation on earth. It is why the middle class has shrunk so much. Health care in particular is THE reason why you see all those scary long term projections of the US fiscal position.
I think you guys are misunderstanding me so I am going to be blunt here, what we have now is terrible. What we had was terrible. Going back to what we had 3 months ago is not the answer. We have to cut costs. Probably by as much as 40% to 50% to remain solvent long term. There is simply no other course of action. Doctors are going to have to have a much lower standard of living. They live in a poorer nation now, the middle class has fallen on its ass. Their salaries are going to have to reflect this. Hospitals are going to have to make less money, monopoly chains of hospitals are going to have to be broken up. Insurance companies will probably have to be euthanized. We cannot afford a middle man scraping 10% to 20% off the top. We simply can do it any longer.
That is why I am telling you that we can't work on the fringes and get this straightened out. This is major reconstruction we are talking about. This isn't ideology or starry eyed liberalism here, these are cold hard facts. This system will go away because we can't afford to have a system that costs this much and provides worse outcomes on a national level. No nation on earth could. It is not that I ~want~ the system to die, it is because when you look at it without sentiment it ~must~ die for the rest of the nation to remain competitive.
Will
Love ya man.
But I ain't backing off.
1. Doctors and hospitals will never lower their top shelf incomes. Dream on Oh starry eyed one. What kids will do is stop becoming doctors. What a great system that will be. I've heard every talking head and Pol yap on this and no one is interviewing doctors to see what they think.
2. I sum up your stuff here with "This can't continue because it isn't fair and isn't efficient." Haha.
If that makes things get fixed, explain government to me!!
BTW Willy, the whole world is in a "Haves" vs "Have-Nots" fight. It's over everything. Health care and insurance to pay for it is maybe tops but still only one item.
Haves will not change the systems merely because they are unfair. And they make all the rules.
Fair has nothing to do with it.
At this point I am talking cold hard facts. This nation has become a poorer one for the majority of citizens over the past few decades. The middle class is the one that paid for healthcare. It is if not gone it is at least much lessened. Sorry but medicine cannot remain as extravagant as it is now because the financial pillar that props it up is much weaker.
But they aren't the only ones. Higher education and housing are going to have to become much less costly as well. It isn't a choice it is a necessity. And the simple fact is that those who benefit from having outsized pricing for healthcare, housing, and higher education are going to take a hit. A big one. Finance enabled this BS and they are at the root of the problem.
It is called the FIRE economy. It ~must~ go down. Has to. A lot of white collars are going to have to get dirty. We are going to have to get back to a more basic produce/consume economy. The only question is how long we will keep digging the hole trying to retain this imaginary economy. Asset price inflation is not the basis of a healthy economy. Neither is overpriced healthcare and education.
Will
I will admit to not reading all of the posts in this thread and I have been avoiding putting in my two cents, just because I am sure y'all are tired of hearing about it. But here is an opinion from a slightly different angle. Conservatives speak of entitlement and they are typically talking about welfare. But they seldom talk about the entitlement programs for corporations. Democrats talk of welfare and they are typically talking about helping people. But they seldom talk about how welfare is just as socially erosive as poverty. But face it. In America, we have created a government that doesn't just govern the business of the nation, but one that protects, promotes, and enables a way of life. We have artificially low food costs. We have artificially low energy costs. We have artificially low housing costs. and to make it all work, we have artificially low interest rates so we can create new businesses and buy new stuff. Our entire economy is based on a manufactured set of costs that enable us to maintain a standard of living that is considered 'American'. Its our right, our entitlement. When our old people were living in poverty and dying in squalor, we invented Medicare. It was meant as a way to access affordable health care for those who no longer worked and couldn't afford health care. Now it is viewed as a retirement plan, along with social security. Its an inalienable right. Republican, Democrats, Tea Partiers, you name it, will all line up at the government trough and it won't matter one whit whether they have a demonstrable need. They paid taxes goddammit and they want their medicare. Its the same with social security. Its gotten to where now, Social Security is not a security net for retired people, its the main part of a lot of people's retirement plans. And we're all entitled to it whether we've worked or not, whether we've scrimped and saved and planned for our retirements or not. Whether any of this is right or wrong is not the point. The point is that we depend on governmental regulation to maintain our entire way of life and we depend on government programs to make our golden years golden. And if you think anyone in this country carries their own freight, you're sadly mistaken. Which is why I find this whole argument about whether Obamacare is 'European style socialism' totally bogus. We have made socialism work in America and we've done it while maintaining a steady denial of all things socialistic. NAFTA was brought up in this conversation and talked about like it was the worse thing in the world. Yet, US trade to North American partners has increased to over a trillion dollars. 30% of all farm exports go to Canada and Mexico. Trade has increased 156% to Canada and Mexico under NAFTA while it's grown 65% to other countries. We have a trade surplus with our neighbors which is a good thing. And NAFTA does what all conservative want; it reduced government interference in trade and thus reduced the cost of trade. But its still a government program meant to maintain our economy and our way of life. Again, an entitlement program.
I say this to create a context to say this about Obamacare or any government subsidized health care model. Its just another way of making an important part of every family's budget affordable. Its what we do in America for virtually every one of our essential needs. And if you think America is jacked up now, just imagine what it would be like without those things propping us up.
And one last comment, I agree with Deputy; this really isn't about insurance. this is about cost. ACA doesn't do shit about health care cost as far as I can see which is its greatest weakness. All it does is treat the symptom not the problem. But I'm gonna vote for whoever or whatever makes our American way of life possible. and I'm gonna vote against anybody who tries to tell me I'm immoral for thinking otherwise.
BKB
My fingers are too cold to type all the examples but. .........
I just seem to have a different perspective from folks. I don't see we are a poorer nation in the last few decades. I live in the poorest state but I see nothing but wealth.
Every car has one driver. Road construction abounds nnonstop no matter fuel costs. Housing starts are down but not fancy apartments which have exploded. I made a small percentage of what most of you make and I have a Home, Two Old But Nice Vehicles, A wheely, A Boat A Chain Saw AND 11 Pairs Of boots.
And entitlement is misused. Social security is my entitlement because I'm entitled to it. I paid 7 % of my income for it, Jack. That ain't a giveaway like food stamps or welfare. Geez. To equate those is insane. I'd have opted out if I could have!!
now. ....The system that got us all this wasn't fair. Nope. But the only one that I know of that is fair is the opportunity for salvation. Every other one is unequal.
Besides, that's a misuse of the word "fair". Fairness and equality are not the same. Sounds like you guys really want equality not fairness. BS.
Posthole's income and nd mine are not equal. But that is imminently fair!
Household income has been stagnant for over 30 years.
Corrected for inflation the average household has the about the same income as it had when the Carter/Reagan election was coming down the pike. Has health care stayed even when considering inflation? Has a decent college education? Has housing? ~snort~
There are a myriad of ways to jimmy the stats to mask this. Heaven knows we are world class at that. We have an inflation stat that is almost laughable in its impotence and its stark difference from how the rest of the world computes it. Same for unemployment. Same for a hell of a lot of political hot potatoes. But there a couple that jump off the page to me. They're a payoff of all of these other jimmied stats: Disposable household income and total household debt.
Disposable income is down compared to in the 70s and 80s. Way down. And household debt is up. Way up. We are a poorer nation with cooler toys.
Will
Guess they were free then.....
That 7% you paid in is a tax, not an investment. You paid 7% while a lot of other social security recipients didn't pay in half that if any at all. And I'm not saying you shouldn't get social security or even have to prove you need it to get it. I'm just using it as yet another example of the inaccurate viewpoint that somehow Obamacare is going to make us a welfare state. And that's in a state with government ran retirement (social security), government ran health insurance (Medicare), government ran food industry, government ran energy industry, government ran housing industry, and a government ran education system. We make the chinese look like Tea Partiers.
BKB
Of course they weren't. But just they took up less of a household budget than they do now. These were considered middle class staples. Now they are getting a little bit more out of reach every year. Have been for decades. This is what I mean by getting poorer.
The system came to the end of the line with the housing crash. That was the system letting us know that we had crossed a line. So what was our response? We brought to full weight of the Treasury Dept. and Federal Reserve to bear to arrest the housing price crash. It worked. We managed to keep housing prices inflated by having these two branches of government purchase about 4 Trillion USD worth of overpriced mortgage debt. We have even managed to reinflate housing prices about 10% in the past year in the complete absence of underlying demand from household formation. And the central bank shovels another 80 Billion USD into this morass each and every month.
Congratulations Washington DC! We managed to keep from taking a huge concrete step in lowering the cost of living, and therefore the cost of labor, in the US. Our trading partners thank you.
Will
Life's gotten better for everyone I know in last 40 years. Even the poorest have cell phones, cars, satellite tv, food.
I just don't see or buy much of your position.
And as to postholes claim that government made great things possible, I say no....they occurred in spite of government and would have been even greater if the elitist government idiots let private folks decide their own fate.
Household formation at an all time low. Labor force participation rates not seen since the early 80s. Population and fertility rates that would be shrinking in the absence of immigration. Per capita public sector debt that is approaching average medium income. Household debt at unimaginable heights 5 years after the housing bubble burst highs. Unprecedented numbers of those under 30 living at home. Education debt levels at astronomic highs and no sign of even leveling off any time soon.
This aren't the credentials of a prospering nation. These are 3rd world numbers. Strip away the demand that has been brought forward by various types of debt and you have a depression.
A poor nation with fancy toys.
Will
You've missed my point Bucky. My point is we got what we demanded from our government. We created this by insisting that it is our God given right for every American to have an opportunity to maintain an American standard of living and we use our government as the most powerful tool we have to make sure that we keep it propped up. Our food (yeah food again) and agri industries for example. Richard Nixon didn't order Earl Butz to create a military-industrial complex based system. He ordered him to hold food prices low so he could get friggin re-elected. Food prices at that time weren't micromanaged by the government and inflation was making household economies go in the shitter. We voted for what we've got with our feet. And its the same with everything else. Government has only done what we've demanded of it, both conservative and liberal.
BKB
I have to say I've traveled to MANY countries that have let their people decide their own fate and things generally don't go well. Nothing like seeing mothers sitting along the sidewalk holding their sick children while holding a cup begging for enough change to buy a bowl of rice. There's no good answer and our government is fubar'd ... but it's the best in the world. I'm all for social programs ... but I despise those who take the system and work it to their advantage, fraudulently.
Interesting read over at Naked Capitalism from someone who ~used~ to support the ACA. Right up until he got into the nuts and bolts of how it works. NC is an excellent blog and almost always fact filled. I recommend a stop there occasionally for anyone, especially conservatives who believe that they have a corner on facts. Yves will sometimes amaze you with the inside scoop on how policies really work. In this post she puts up the lamentations of someone who thought this was an improvement. ~snort~
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/...st-the-49.html
Money Quotes:
"This is the sorry state of the Affordable Care Act, the ultimate betrayal of the self-employed middle class who are supposed to magically produce income to single-handedly support those who are uninsurable. As I demonstrated in prior articles this promise, when objectively judged, borders on sadistic...."
"... this is the 50% against the other 49%. More than that, the 1% will look on amused as these awful overpriced plans seem almost calculated to bring about a Republican landslide in the next election."
END QUOTE
Bwahahahahaha! I still cannot believe that so many Democrats don't understand that this guy is not their friend. He is a right leaning corporatist who is liberal on social issues. The guy's a shill. And ACA is nothing more than a wet dream for those who make their living in the health care industry. This whole thing did nothing to lower costs. Even worse it puts additional costs on those who are self employed. He's right, it is sadistic.
I just don't know why it is taking everyone so long to figure it out!
Will
Penguin, its the ONLY plan anyone ever put out there for consideration. I don't know of any serious comprehensive plan put forth by anybody to actually fix the problem and not the symptom.
somebody has to take it in the shorts to reduce costs. You don't actually think the people that make their dough off of the current system is going to pay for it did you?
BKB
Point one is a good one. You are right. There is nothing coming from either the right or the left. Everyone is still talking as if going back to the system prior to ACA is actually a long term option. It isn't. But more than a little I blame BHO for that. He shortcircuited the talks from the outset and pushed for an insurance company wet dream. Let's be honest, this thing was thought up by the Heritage Foundation as a "free market" way to reform the system. It was and is a joke.
Point two? My answer: Yes I do. Absolutely I do.
They ~will~ take a hit. A big one. A huge one. Their salaries are going to come into line with what the rest of the 1st world pays for their healthcare providers. The only question that remains is ~how~ this takes place. We can all sit down like adults and discuss this rationally. We can come up with solutions that incorporate US preferences and attitudes but at the same time uses lessons that world wide have been learned about how to provide health care at reasonable costs.
OR we can keep going until the system crashes.
Everything that affects costs is going to have to be rethought. How education for HC works. How long it takes. Who pays. Who decides how many seat in the classroom are available. Who pays for residencies. How are hospital chains regulated or broken up. What type of administration takes place. Who decides what is covered. Who negotiates drug purchases. And all of the things I brought up earlier in this thread. And a bunch more we haven't thought of.
As time goes by we are seeing more and more thrown out of our HC system. We have a thousand and one ways in which these costs are passed on to others. We subsidize the system more than any other save maybe the financial system. It will end. The question is whether we do it as adults of just wait for it to come apart at the seams.
Will
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