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Thread: I don't often agree with Fox News

  1. #1
    Administrator BarryBobPosthole's Avatar
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    I don't often agree with Fox News

    ...in particular I don't often agree with their opinion columns. But this one pretty much hits it square on the head in my opinion as far as this deal with children from Central America that have crossed our borders. and the whole immigration 'issue' in general. We lack leadership in both the White House and the Congress and it does nobody any good to just chant the usual BS they hear. but I agree with these preachers.....these are kids and I don't give a shit how illegal they are. We need to treat them like would somebody's kid that doesn't belong to us but came and knocked on our door because somebody was threatening them at their house down the street. Sorry, but I can't see it any differently. If you do see it differently that's fine. You're not a hater or an asshole or even an idiot. Just don't call me one because of the way I think about it either.

    BKB

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/...gop-on-border/

    Even on Capitol Hill, there is a God.

    Last week, the nation’s religious leaders stood up to ask their elected officials to look past politics and see that children — not theoretical abstractions but real, young individuals — are suffering because of inaction by Congress.

    The children who have come north, fleeing violence in Central America, “are not ‘issues.’ These are … children made in the image of God and we ought to respond to them with compassion, not fear,” Russell Moore, a leader of the conservative Southern Baptist Convention told The New York Times.

    The GOP seems content to let it happen and stoke the crisis so long as they can blame Obama.

    The pope, the President of Catholic Charities U.S.A., the leaders of the evangelical charity World Vision and others want to stop Congress from treating children as political footballs.

    They want Congress to pass a funding bill before the August recess that allows for proper handling of children coming to the United States under existing law for minors fleeing violence, sexual abuse and exploitation.

    A group of top evangelicals — key supporters of the GOP for decades — wrote to ask Congress last week to protect the children and offer them full consideration in court as refugees.

    But the GOP’s obstructionism of anything the Obama White House proposes now stands in the way of faith-based compassion for these children.

    “If Republicans move forward on this, we’re now jumping in right in the middle of President Obama’s nightmare and making it ours,” said Rep. John Fleming (R-La.).

    “If it doesn’t have the 2008 repeal in it, I don’t support it — we’ve got to address the cause of the problem,” Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said last week, referring to Bush-era legislation that gives children from certain countries who enter the United States illegally the right to a hearing before a judge.

    McCain’s analysis leapt over the fact that these children did not start arriving in large numbers until late last year. They did so in response to deadly threats in their home countries, not because of any law.

    The GOP is guilty of at least three counts of intellectual and moral dishonesty in this debate.

    First is the claim that waves of illegal immigrants are sweeping across the southern border in unprecedented numbers. The fact is that net migration from Mexico, the biggest source of migrants, fell to zero in 2012. And, if you include El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua, it is estimated by Frank Bean of the Center for Research on Immigration, Population and Public Policy at UC Irvine, the net is less than 100,000 people per year.

    The second dishonest claim from the GOP is that a large share of the nation’s 12 million illegal immigrants ran, swam or were brought across the border by smugglers, “coyotes” or human traffickers.

    Wrong again. The plurality — at least 40 percent — of illegal immigrants now in the United States came legally on boats and planes. They simply overstayed their visas. Yet Republicans in the House refuse to move on comprehensive immigration reform and crack down on the heart of the problem.

    Third, and most frequently, Republicans contend they don’t trust President Obama. They say that until Democrats get serious about border security they will refuse to pass immigration reform or deal with the current crisis of children seeking asylum.

    But Obama’s funding request includes money for increased security, providing additional money for the Border Patrol and even for drones. The bipartisan Senate immigration reform bill also included huge amounts of money for further security. And Obama has deported so many people he is sometimes attacked from the left as the “Deporter in Chief.”

    The most outrageously false claim is that Obama’s 2012 executive order is the real problem. That order halted the deportation of some children brought to the United States illegally as minors.

    The fact is that Obama’s executive order applied only to young people who were already in the country. The young people now asking for help are not eligible under his program.

    It is a marvel of political dishonesty to point at Obama and blame him for how human traffickers misrepresent U.S. immigration policy to desperate parents in Central America.

    The facts of the child migrant crisis lead to a harsh conclusion. Republicans are deaf to calls for mercy for children because they are playing for political gain. They see the chance to use the fear of “invading” immigrants to spur their voters to turn out in the midterm elections.

    Late last week, Republicans offered a plan with less than half of the $3.7 billion the White House wants to deal with the crisis. Senate Democrats have a proposal that cuts Obama’s request by about a quarter. But the Democrats refuse GOP demands to change the 2008 law.

    Meanwhile, federal customs and immigration agencies will be out of money by September without supplemental funds from Congress.

    The GOP seems content to let it happen and stoke the crisis so long as they can blame Obama.

    Can people of faith shame these politicians?

  2. #2
    pUMpHEAD SYSOp Thumper's Avatar
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    Dang little rug-rats!

    Seriously, I think it's one hell of a mess any way you look at it. A giant damned if you do, damned if you don't type deal.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness" - Mark Twain

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    Administrator BarryBobPosthole's Avatar
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    And that's my point 100%. Because there is no political advantage to it, neither side is going to budge at the expense of young people's lives. That one effed up set of values if'n you ask me (and nobody did I realize)

    BKB

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    I agree with you Barry. And this coming from a man who would stop ALL immigration, legal or otherwise, if it were in my power to do so.

    Regardless of what you think about the issue the fact is that it is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to acquire the facts on whether these kids are true refugees or not. To my mind that isn't the question we should be asking. The fact is that parents of these children were so desperate as to send their children north. The question we ought to be asking is how would a moral and ethical nation respond to such desperation as it pertains to children. Exactly how are you going to track down the places these kids are supposed to be from, verify their identities, and safely return them? The logistics of this boggle my mind.

    I have no patience for an immigration policy that is being used for a battering ram against both US workers and/or a certain political party that is composed mostly of white folks that doesn't lend itself to the affections of poor immigrants. Sadly that is exactly what immigration policy has been and continues to be. I'd end it all if I could.

    But when it comes to children you have to set that aside if you ask me.

    Will

  5. #5
    Administrator BarryBobPosthole's Avatar
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    And this is happening in our hemisphere. We have a vested interest in finding the root cause and helping to fix it. I'm much rather do that than send missiles to the Ukraine.

    BKB

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    Amen to that.

    Will

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    Administrator LJ3's Avatar
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    I honestly don't know much about the detail but agree with treating these kids as children, with dignity, respect and keeping them safe.

    The skeptic in me thinks this may be similar to the infamous anchor baby technique, though. Are parents flinging these kids in to the country so secure a place for themselves in some way? If so, we should shoot those parents and make the kids US citizens.
    If we all threw our problems in a pile, and you saw everyone else's problems-- you'd take yours back.

  8. #8
    pUMpHEAD SYSOp Thumper's Avatar
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    All the thugs of the world have to do is claim some of those kids and we'll have another "Mariel boatlift" on our hands. How much can we spend before we're broke? No wait! I forgot ... we're ALREADY broke! Take 'em all in ... take care of 'em ... just raise our taxes if we "run out" of money ... or simply print more!
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness" - Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by LJ3 View Post
    I honestly don't know much about the detail but agree with treating these kids as children, with dignity, respect and keeping them safe.

    The skeptic in me thinks this may be similar to the infamous anchor baby technique, though. Are parents flinging these kids in to the country so secure a place for themselves in some way? If so, we should shoot those parents and make the kids US citizens.
    Lol, I could go along with that Len.

    I don't know whether this is the case for none of them, a few of them, or even a bunch of them. I just know that in the few instances I've seen the parents of children speaking they weren't planning on coming north. Several of them had sent sons north because they were getting recruited into gangs that they didn't want to join and were facing one of those offers that "you can't refuse" if you know what I mean. I personally don't have a large enough sample to know if this is symbolic of the problem or outliers.

    Fact is that some of these central American nations are bordering on chaos. The US appetite for illegal drugs has made the drug industry among the largest and powerful forces in the region. Hell, even Mexico would have been considered a narco state 50 years ago. Some of these places might be considered failed states before too long.

    Will

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    Senior Member (too much time on their hands) Buckrub's Avatar
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    I don't understand y'all's logic.
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  11. #11
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    nobody likes to see kids suffer but the hard truth of the matter is, if everybody in this country gave every nickel they had to help the rest of the world, the problem would still exist and we'd be begging Mexico to help feed our children. At some point you have to draw the line. Other countries have to be accountable for their own problems. There's a lot of truth in "give a man a fish".

    I for one am glad that I'm not in charge of making the decision but at some point people and countries are going to have to learn to stand on their own two feet. Every time I see something like this, I see scenes from Mad Max.
    "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"
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    Administrator Captain's Avatar
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    I agree with Fox News about all the time.
    In fact I let them do most my thinking for me.

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    Through a co-worker, I have access to a newsletter from the DEA that they put out regarding the narco-traffickers in Mexico and on into Guatemala, Honduras, and the rest of Central America. If I lived there, I'd send my kids out of there as fast as I could too. They are killing people by the dozens every week in every state in Mexico. The government has lost complete control and the citizens are arming themselves and forming their own vigilante groups to protect their towns. It is so out of control that the Mad Max reference is closer to the truth than you'd believe, only without the post-apocalyptic setting.
    "Never try to fight an Old Dude. If you win, there's no glory; if you lose, your reputation is shot."

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    Administrator LJ3's Avatar
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    Wow Deppity. That sheds a new light on it for me. I can relate to the parents choosing to try and save their kids in that way. Doesn't it make sense to try and get your whole family out of there? There's certainly no easy answer for the situation.

    Not to interweave different issues but when I think of this issue and the Israeli/Hamas conflict the world is quick to say "the KIDS!, these are kids, people. It should be a different set of rules!" Which, I completely agree with. But... and it's a big but, in both instances, who are the adults responsible for the safety of the kids and who are the adults harming the kids? THOSE, should be the people the world should be holding accountable for their safety.
    If we all threw our problems in a pile, and you saw everyone else's problems-- you'd take yours back.

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    pUMpHEAD SYSOp Thumper's Avatar
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    Ok, it's time for me to do my job around this joint and shit in your Wheaties here. Not all of these little cuties arrive with a sugar coating. Some have grown up "in the streets". The big question is, what kind of control ... or "weeding out" process do we have? During Mariel, we ended up with a bunch of street urchins who would make professional pick-pockets look like amateurs. As they grew older, they "matured" and started carrying guns. How many "little kiddies" come across from south of the border and end up as gang-bangers? I remember GI's always had a soft spot for kids in Vietnam ... poor little things caught up in all that nasty war and crap .... we'd smile, hand 'em a piece of candy, then they'd smile back, pull the pin on a hand grenade, stuff it in your pocket and run like hell! Is it really OUR job to raise these kids? Why is it we always think we have to take care of the world when we can't even take care of our own?

    There ... that's the curmudgeon's view of this mess.

    Oh yeah ... almost forgot ... have a nice day.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness" - Mark Twain

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    Administrator BarryBobPosthole's Avatar
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    Thumper, I have no idea what these 'kids' are made up of. I do know there's been more bullshit spewed on this issue than just about any I can remember. We've got one side making it seem like they're all little kids with their raggedy ann dolls and the other side making it sound like they are disease ridden ebola carrying muslim teenage pickpocket drug cartel assassins. It seems that any time someone wants to make a point in this mess they either appeal to people's soft spots for kids or they prey on our worse fears. In other words, there's a lot of motherfuckers out there in this world and I don't know if amongst these kids how many of 'em are and how many of 'em ain't. I suppose that's what they had in mind when they passed the law in 2008 that said they need to see a federal judge who'll make a decision on whether they're in reality 'refugees' or not before we deport their asses back to their home country. One little minor detail is those geniuses that passed that law forgot to include funding for all of the judges we'd need and the holding facilities we'd so we could hold them while they're waiting to see them.

    BKB

  17. #17
    pUMpHEAD SYSOp Thumper's Avatar
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    Between all our "wars" ... foreign aid ... and taking care of everyone who sticks their hand out here AND abroad ... I really don't know how our economy can stay afloat. Where is the deficit standing now? Who's gonna bail US out?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness" - Mark Twain

  18. #18
    Administrator BarryBobPosthole's Avatar
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    Maybe you oughta try finding out the facts and then you might actually feel a little better about things. The federal deficit has been shrinking. Big time. It was $1.4 Trillion dollars in 2009. It has decreased now to a project $492 billion for 2014 and recent figures indicate it might be even better than that. To be fair, 2009 was an aberration. the Bush 2008 budget had about a $458 billion deficit. It went so high in 2009 of course because of all the bailout shit from the banking collapse.

    that doesn't mean we don't have a shitload of a long way to go. When all of us baby boomers finally all get retired and on social security and medicare its going to be awful hard to figure out how to pay for it.

    But in the meantime, the crap you hear from the pols ain't necessarily true crap. We're in better shape than we were fiscally when Obama came into the White House. that's a bitter pill but it's the truth. But then again, that's kind of like being first in a fat man's race if you ask me. Nothing much has been done to 'fix' anything and that's probably the main reason its dropped.

    BKB

  19. #19
    Senior Member (too much time on their hands) Buckrub's Avatar
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    The "logic" on immigrant mexican kids is ............. um.....'flawed'........

    On the debt, I'll buy that things are rosy when they STOP raising the debt ceiling...........

    here's some actual info, and from a liberal website at that:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/willia...b_4837585.html
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  20. #20
    Administrator BarryBobPosthole's Avatar
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    Well, Thumper didn't ask about the national debt, he asked about where the deficit is right now. Two different things. I wholeheartedly agree that we need to have budget surpluses and not deficits, before we can begin to pay down the national debt. Kind of like the surplus Bush and the Congress inherited in 2000. Then along came a huge tax cut and two wars and a little banking crisis and here we are.

    Its a lot more complicated than blaming Bush or Obama or republicans or democrats. One of these days we might figure that out and come up with a plan.

    BKB

  21. #21
    Administrator BarryBobPosthole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckrub View Post
    The "logic" on immigrant mexican kids is ............. um.....'flawed'......
    and just FYI, these ain't 'immigrant mexican kids', at least the vast majority ain't. That's probably the flaw in the logic you see.

    BKB

  22. #22
    pUMpHEAD SYSOp Thumper's Avatar
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    Well duh. My bad. I didn't even think about it that way. In my mind the deficit and National debt were one and the same ... UNTIL I really thought about it. You're right. My semantics suck.

    Put it this way ... we can't afford this crap.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness" - Mark Twain

  23. #23
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    Jim: I agree that we do spend a lot of money on unnecessary and even frivolous things. But I think that makes the decision making a lot easier in this case. Spending money to find out who the real refugees are and making them welcome and able to grow up healthy would seem to trump a WHOLE lot of junk spending.

    As to the balanced budget debate.... well a good start to a sound economic policy on budgeting would be publicly denouncing faith based economics and those who preach and practice it. That would include about 90% of economists and 95% of politicians and 100% of so called "think tanks". In the end the change to a sound economic policy and a sound economy is very simple. And very painful assuming we unwind the bullshit suffocating ours.

    Renounce all of our free trade pacts, they are nothing but patent and financial protection for monopolies and speculators.
    Renounce the use of the dollar as reserve currency, this is nothing but an excuse/reason to offshore manufacturing.
    Introduce a flat income tax, 20% ought to do it. Include all capital gains, asset appreciation, carried interest and other loophole in income.
    Make national elections publicly financed and outlaw any private contributions. Corporations ain't people and money ain't speech. Pass a constitutional amendment to make this happen.

    There you have it. Problem solved. And welcome to your new Greatest Depression. Fixing this mess is impossible without doling out tremendous amounts of pain. Anyone who tells you differently is lying or ignorant or both. And it means giving up the American empire. Sorry.

    Truth is we ain't gonna do this. Or anything resembling it. It's too late. This problem won't be fixed because the people who own this country don't want it fixed. It's just that simple.

    All that taken into account though is no reason why we should not be approaching this particular issue from a moral and ethical POV.

    At least IMvHO.

    Will

  24. #24
    Administrator BarryBobPosthole's Avatar
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    Man, I agree with so much of that Chilly Willy that you can't even imagine. But there's so much more on the 'social' side of things that need fixing that I think doing one without addressing the other is an empty proposition. Mind you, I'm not one of the believers in the 'America is going to hell in a handbasket' philosophy. Granted we have deep, deep waters to navigate and obstacles to overcome but America is still the greatest force economically, politically, and (in my mind) morally in the world. Or maybe ethically is a better word for morally, at least more precise.

    I'm turning 60 next month and this is a big milestone for me. I'll use the same worn out thing you hear all the time and say that I actually never expected to make it to this age. Given how I've spent my personal health capital over the course of my life a lot of folks would say I was of the 'live fast, love hard, die young' philosophy. At least I did until I turned 50, and since then I've spend a lot of my energy trying to atone for it and make myself healthier. Well, to a point anyway. I don't think people fundamentally ever change and I've never met a good time I didn't like. So it goes I reckon.

    Anyway, turning 60 has made for some interesting conversations with friends and relatives and work associates about the whole aging thing and those conversations have led me to one inescapable conclusion. The whole goddamned world is on disability of some sort. Government paid disability I mean. Certainly the majority of people I've discussed retirement with are to some degree disables and receive a government check for that disablement. Given that most of my friends and family are of the conservative ilk, these are the same people that will cuss a blue streak at people who get money and don't work as being the 'rot' in our society. I don't say this to call them hypocrites because most of them are fine upstanding people. I only say it to point out (and quite frankly point it out) that a good many really awesome Americans I know think that we are all deserving of every thin dime we can weasel out of Uncle Sam as long as you are a: retired or b: a veteran. I have a first cousin who is 100% disabled and draws a huge Social Security check for it. He's an active hunter, fisherman, and outdoorsman and I'd have a difficult time keeping up with him on just about any physical activity. In other words, THERE AIN'T NOTHING WRONG WITH HIM. But he's retired and because he paid in for all those years, he feels like it's just fine and dandy to say he's disabled when in all reality, he isn't. apparently a doctor has said so. somehow this has become a part of acceptable behavior in our culture because he ain't the only one.
    People in this country are also of the opinion that if their vocation or profession serves the public in some way that they are due some sort of extra security. Truckers, airline pilots, farmers, telecommunicators, IT people (ESPECIALLY IT PEOPLE), energy company employees, you name it, all do critical things that none of us could live without. Which ones of those do we want to spend a shitload of our tax dollars protecting so that we also protect their vital services? Who decided which was most most important to protect? Did we vote on it? the bottom line is there really aren't any free markets anywhere in America. And the belief in the myth that our economy and marketplace is a free market capitalist one is one of the things holding us back from reforming the stuff that is totally upside down. Like food prices, for one. Gas prices for another. INSURANCE prices for another. None of them free market. The only free market thing I can think of is the guy I buy my weed from. If weed is scarce its more expensive. Go figure.

    those are just a couple of fundamental things that I think are root causes of a lot of our economic woes. the deficit and the national debt aren't the problem. they are the symptoms of the problem. the real problems go a lot deeper.

    BKB

  25. #25
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    I know exactly what you mean Barry.

    The biggest free market loving, Republican voting, Limbaugh loving, liberal hating, commie hunter in my hometown was just like that. Never worked a day in his entire worthless freeloading life. And now, after his demise, his son has taken up the mantle and expounds his Adam Smith loving opinions to any and all who will listen at the local barbershop. Where he sits on his worthless ass all day, every day while the rest of the world is out making a living. How in the hell this piece of work got on to government sponsored disability is beyond. He ~is~ unemployable. But that is because he is stupid, worthless, and lazy not because of any true disability.

    I can still remember the elder worthless POS indicting my father for working as a union member one saturday morning decades ago. After listening to his idiotic union = communist bullshit for about 5 minutes my dad looked him straight in the eye and said "I work for a living. Have for years. I haven't drew a government check since I left the Marine Corps. When was the last time you ever got paid for work you did?"

    The truth hurts. After that he hated my father till the day he died.

    Truth be told 90% of the Limbaugh spouting jackasses I know personally are freeloaders. Even an uncle of mine. Hell of a nice guy. Spent his whole life belittling two of his brothers (my father and a different uncle) who worked union. Said it was anti-American. All of that John Wayne, star spangled banner stuff. Now, after a heart attack he sits around bitching about freeloaders and waiting for the next check to come in. Wasn't for an old high school flame he'd be homeless probably. Now because he didn't take care of things properly the rest of us get to pay for his rugged individualism views as a young and productive man.

    It clouds my vision when I'm on the internet. I can't shake the feeling that most of the people who are most virulently conservative might be like the ones I know back home. In that Clive Bundy debacle I kept thinking "Where in the hell are all of those people from? Don't they have jobs? "

    I'll probably never know. But I know what I suspect.

    Will

  26. #26
    Senior Member (too much time on their hands) Chicken Dinner's Avatar
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    Barry, your post reminds of me the old joke where Jesus shows up at some diner and commences to lay hands on people and heal them. He works his way down the counter and the last old boy in line jumps up and shouts, "Don't touch me! I'm on disability..."
    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Raoul Duke

  27. #27
    Senior Member (too much time on their hands) Buckrub's Avatar
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    90%.....wow. Big number.
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  28. #28
    pUMpHEAD SYSOp Thumper's Avatar
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    Ha ha! I think somebody pushed Willy's hot-button!
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness" - Mark Twain

  29. #29
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    90% but with an *... the only reason this isn't higher is that I am trying to compensate for possible survivor bias. Most of the people I know personally just plain don't talk in sound bites from talk radio. And even the conservative folks I know seem to be more subdued and a bit introspective. That seems to be the purview of the internet. So maybe there are folks I know who feel that way but just don't feel obligated to tell me about it in real life. On the internet there seems to be no such compulsion but they aren't included since I cannot know how they live.

    Will

  30. #30
    Senior Member (too much time on their hands) Buckrub's Avatar
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    I, and almost all my real life friends, must have dreamed all those 45-55 years that we worked. Man. I wish I had known sooner, I'd have stopped all those 80 hour weeks.
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