Arrrrgggghhhh!!

[Thumper]

Bucky, I call bullshit. (and why are you talking as if I'm not here?)

Jim thinks he can ask a ton of questions that HE can't answer, and that doing so proves that there are NO answers. That's incorrect, but we don't get to discuss it in depth with him........and truthfully not anyone else like him. Our views are dismissed. THAT is the issue I have........not that anyone has a differing view..........but that their view is relevant and mine is worthless.

The point I always try to make is that you and others quote all that's in the Bible as absolute fact, when in fact, NOBODY knows. Religious beliefs are just that ... "beliefs". All based on "heresay" actually. I have no problem with people of faith ... where I draw the line is when their faith is perceived as the ONLY faith that's valid. There are different religions all over the world. What makes "us" so arrogant that we are the only ones who are correct?

And the "name calling" you refer to is the fact you many times (even though you have a convenient lack of memory and always deny it) refer to me as an Athiest. When I say I prefer the term Agnostic, you inform me there is absolutely no difference. I'm still looking for answers ... I just have trouble accepting the one's I'm given. Isn't that my right?

[Thumper]

And I'll quote the unnamed blonde lady ... the most important statement made so far.

This is my OPINON and how I was raised.

Ma'am, I was raised the same way. Dad was a deacon in the church, my grandfather and 4 of my dad's brother's were preachers ... three had their own churches. BUT ... I grew up and formed my own OPINIONS and nobody can guarantee me they're wrong ... just as I can never guarantee they are right. BTW ... I appreciate the prayers. Are they the reason I'm still alive today? Nobody KNOWS ... I don't ... and you don't either. That does not mean I don't appreciate the thoughts sent my way.

[LJ3]

Hey look! We're arguing!

[Thumper]

Who's arguing? I thought it was a G/H "discussion".

[Captain]

Typical response.

The truth can only come out one way Thumper.

[LJ3]

In every disagreement there are three sides. Person A opinion and perspective, person B opinion and perspective, and the truth. Life happens in between those things.

[Captain]

Mine is the third one.

[Thumper]

Well. I'm in "limbo" ... I guess that could mean "between".

Here's what it all boils down to. I have NO problem with people "of faith". None whatsoever ... until they tell me they base their faith on fact ... what they think, is the way it is, period! That ruffles my feathers a bit.

Here's the definition of faith:

Faith is defined as belief, confidence or trust in a person, object, religion, idea or view despite the absence of proof.

So, IMHO ... NOBODY can be right OR wrong.

[johnboy]

I always wondered why those who purport to believe in a religion and deity that spoke of love and tolerance and kindness seem to have the most problems with those who might not quite fit their perception of "right" and "wrong".

Personally, I feel sorry for Jenner. He seems to be a person that has struggled with an issue all his life and is now doing something about it. Does his personal decision affect me in any way? No, not in the slightest so I wish him luck in finding whatever he is missing in his life.

[Thumper]

Well said Johnboy.

[LJ3]

So, IMHO ... NOBODY can be right OR wrong.

And here we have, in it's native habitat, a creature who will never be able to be successfully engaged in Holy Matrimony. Genus - Jiminus Cluelessnutorum.

[Thumper]

And to think I was going to hire you to photograph the magic day.

[BarryBobPosthole]

I always wondered why those who purport to believe in a religion and deity that spoke of love and tolerance and kindness seem to have the most problems with those who might not quite fit their perception of "right" and "wrong".

Personally, I feel sorry for Jenner. He seems to be a person that has struggled with an issue all his life and is now doing something about it. Does his personal decision affect me in any way? No, not in the slightest so I wish him luck in finding whatever he is missing in his life.

This^^^^
BKB

[Captain]

And to think I was going to hire you to photograph the magic day.

Don't do it LJ it will break all your cameras and he will want to pay you with old razors.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Don't do it LJ it will break all your cameras and he will want to pay you with old razors.

On the other hand, he'll take great photos of you with your cats.

BKB

[LJ3]

Hey! Let's focus on Jimmy here! See what I did there? focus? (walks away disappointed)

[Buckrub]

Jim, I promise not to get in a debate with you again. But there are two points that you are confused on, and I need to publicly state something.

First, I never, ever called you some 'name' with malice. I did not ever mean to be malicious. If somehow you have some idea of the meaning of two words that's not akin to my idea of their meaning, and if I used one that offended you, I am sorry. I've said that often. Yet my definition of those words, and the one I find from dictionary.com says an Agnostic is "a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena".........while an Atheist is "a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods." I'm pretty sure that it's valid that you lack personal belief in the existence of God, because you've said that repeatedly.

When I called you an Atheist, I did so with honesty, thinking you'd have no problem with it.......since both people, either lacks (is missing) belief that God exists, or believes that no one can know if God exists. I saw no difference, still don't, and so if I called you some 'name' it was out of honest belief that I was using the right word, NOT to offend you.

Second, your comment above that you have no problem with people of faith, just so long as they don't try to tell you that their faith is based on fact, that rankles you. So YOUR mind claims that there cannot be a fact in this area, therefore you don't want anyone else to believe any differently.

Well gee, man! I believe that my faith CAN be proven by facts. So, I have a choice. I can rankle you by stating my sincere and rational belief, or I can let YOUR view of reality supersede mine just because you spoke it. And that rankles me! I will stop arguing the point if you want......but I will not accept any validity that your view of reality can only be true because your mind says it is so, while my view is dismissed by you because my mind cannot possible be right......only yours can.

THAT is the problem. You don't discuss these things........you get 'mad' when folks claim they know something that you don't know. That's pretty elitist and arrogant if you ask me.

I will ask you one serious question. You don't have to answer of course.

If you think you are an Agnostic simply waiting on proof that God exists, having found none yet, just exactly and specifically what proof would you accept that He does exist? I'd be curious what you say.

[Thumper]

Hey! Let's focus on Jimmy here! See what I did there? focus? (walks away disappointed)

Two little black girls were sitting on the wall of a fountain in the town square. A tourist walks up, calls the older of the two over and asks if he can take their pictures while they're sitting at the fountain. The little black girl tells him it would be fine and as the tourist removes his camera from it's case, she walks back over to sit next to her little sister.

The younger sister asks, "What he be doin'?"

The older sister says, "Don't move ... he gonna focus."

The younger sister looks at her all wide-eyed and asked, "BOFE US???"

[Thumper]

Bucky, one thing you've always been an expert at is placing words in people's mouths that they never said. When called on the carpet, you won't remember. We've been beating this horse for years and you always come up with the same bullshit. I have never, ever ... EVER said God does not exist (or better yet, A GOD ... not necessarily YOUR God). I have always, ALWAYS said (since LONG before I ever knew you or anyone here and my feelings have never changed ... so far) I just simply do not know ... and there's nobody on this earth that can say they DO know. They can "believe" (see my definition of "faith" above) ... but believing is not knowing, no matter how strong your belief is.

I've explained the difference to you a bazillion times, but you absolutely refuse (always have) to acknowledge a difference. I've always posted a dictionery definition of the two explaining the difference but it never matters. You're a smart and educated man ... but you let your faith place blinders on any open mindedness (is that a word?) others may possess. There are Atheists and there are Agnostics ... two different birds IF you're willing to accept one's personal feelings and beliefs. If you want to split hairs and get into Agnostic Atheists and/or Agnostic Theists, the water gets even muddier. It's not up to YOU to pick and choose what I believe ... I've told you (many times) what I believe. Take it or leave it.

One more time ... (as if it'll do any good).

Atheist vs. Agnostic

1) An atheist is anyone who doesn't happen to believe in any gods, no matter what their reasons or how they approach the question of whether any gods exist. This is a very simple concept, but it's also widely misunderstood. For that reason, there are a variety of ways to state this. Atheism is: the lack of belief in gods, the absence of belief in gods, disbelief in gods, not believing in gods.

2) An agnostic is anyone who doesn't claim to know for that any gods exist or not, no matter what their reasons or how they approach the question of whether any gods exist. This is also a simple concept, but it may be as widely misunderstood as atheism is. One major problem is that atheism and agnosticism both deal with questions about the existence of gods, but whereas atheism involves what a person does or does not believe, agnosticism involves what a person does or does not know. Belief and knowledge are related but nevertheless separate issues.

Accept that there is a difference ... or don't ... it's up to you. But quit putting words in my mouth that I've never said.

[Buckrub]

Stop getting your panties in a wad all the time, ok?

Those are YOUR definitions. That's how YOU use them. I get that, and when I figured that out, I never called you an Atheist again. Stop putting words in MY mouth that I did! I did not, not after that.

But the definitions I read do not make such a clear distinction as you do.......but yet again, I am forced to accept your definition and not the one I find. I'm sure you are 100% correct, and that I'm not, though.

But I made my points that I wanted to make, and I'm done. I harbor no ill will in any wa, I just want to make sure it's known what I did and what I said and what I believe. My view of life is just as valid as yours is..........and I will stand by that, no matter how much you tell me it rankles you for me to accept as fact the things that I believe. And I didn't call you anything, not lately, and I didn't put words in your mouth.

You can respond, but I'm officially done with this particular discussion with you.

[LJ3]

So, from the stands.. it looks like Bucky's going with the dictionary definition and Thump is defining the words on his own. I called the Webster company but they declined to repeated requests for comment.

Many of my disagreement with my better half center around defining words, or one of us using words in a context which doesn't necessarily include the actual defined meaning. It's a hard thing to resolve. It SHOULDN'T be, but it is.

[Thumper]

Bucky, you shore have a purty mouth ... but after knowing you for the past 18+ years ... I can see right through your smokescreen.
BTW, I didn't write those definitions ... but what difference does it make ... they will always be two different words that mean exactly the same thing to you. There is only black and white in your eye ... never any gray. Not everything in this world is as cut & dry as you seem to think it is.

Screw Funk & Wagnell ... How about this directly from the Catholic Church?

Question:

Is there a difference between atheists and agnostics, or are they just two names for the same thing?

Answer:

Many people confuse or equate the terms, but there is a definite difference between the two.

An atheist, on the one hand, believes that there is no God. Etymologically, the word means "not, or no God." In the atheist camp you can have a wide variety of reasons for their denial as well as differing levels of certainty. Some will deny emphatically that there is a God and claim to have "proof" of God's non-existence. Other's will simply say they do not believe there is a God though they could not prove God does not exist. The common denominator is that they do not believe in God.

Agnosticism is not a belief system as atheism is; rather, it is a theory of knowledge. Etymologically, it means, "not, or no knowledge." An agnostic is someone who believes human beings simply cannot know anything metaphysical or beyond the physical realm; therefore, they cannot know whether things like spirit, angels or God exist at all.

Contrary to popular belief all agnostics are not atheists. There are theistic agnostics--fideists, for example--who believe in God but do not believe that their understanding of God is knowable by natural means.

[Thumper]

LJ ... that is not MY definition ... it came from some site on religion ... don't even remember what it was ... something about "Religion Explained" or sumpin' like that. (Granted, I should have posted a link)

We can play the dictionary game all night long ... this is directly from the Cambridge Dictionary. (see, take your pick and choose the dictionary definition that fits your agenda)

agnostic
noun [C] US /æɡˈnɑs·tɪk/

› someone who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists

And Bucky ... you just verified EXACTLY what I've always said about your "putting words in my mouth". Again, I have never, ever said God (a God or Your God) does not exist ... never! Yet you throw this out as if it's fact.

I'm pretty sure that it's valid that you lack personal belief in the existence of God, because you've said that repeatedly.

That is what gets my panties in a wad ... you only hear what you want to hear. I have always (since I was a young kid) said I simply do not know ... NOBODY knows. I, for all practical purposes, died 7 times while in the hospital. The docs were right there each time and assured me I "should" be ok because they'd zap me back to life, but they made it clear, there was always a chance I would not wake up. I remember like it was yesterday, thinking each time ... "Ok God .. now's your chance ... give me a sign ... a vision ... anything." I got nuttin'. Maybe He was busy at the time, but He could'a gained a fan.

[No-till Boss]

Sunshine what denomination do you abide by ?

[Thumper]

Sunny, Graham was born in Bucky's home town. I'd be afraid ... VERY afraid!

[Thumper]

You know I'm just messin' with ya'.

[No-till Boss]

Since you guys like to eloquently discuss religion so much I have a question from last weeks sermon.

Okay the preacher said, all the thoughts in your head are judged accordingly.

So if I'm walking thru somewhere and I see a chick that I think has a nice rack.......is that a sin in your opinion ? I mean, it's controled and confined to my head is that still judge-able act ?

[Thumper]

You need to wash your eyes out with soap but I'd say you're still in deep doo doo!

You have heard that it was said, “Do not commit adultery.” But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

— Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28

[Arty]

Since you guys like to eloquently discuss religion so much I have a question from last weeks sermon. Okay the preacher said, all the thoughts in your head are judged accordingly. So if I'm walking thru somewhere and I see a chick that I think has a nice rack.......is that a sin in your opinion ? I mean, it's controled and confined to my head is that still judge-able act ?

No.

But... If you turn around and stare at that ass after she's passed you. That's a sin.

[LJ3]

But God made 'dat ass! I blame HIM!