What has happened to the world?

[Thumper]

I'm not really sure what Satan would want with my size 15 shoes Sunny, but he's welcome to them.

[BarryBobPosthole]

When you see the wonders of the world and start to understand the connection of almost everything in it is hard not to believe that there has to be a master plan for it all. I probably personally believe something closer to what Vince describes than I do the whole creation and messiah stories. There's a thousand passion play stories in the history of man. They can't all be true. But I do think its highly likely there is a Prime Mover, so to speak. But the God I'm closest believing in is the one Aristotle and St Thomas Aquinas described, one that is not the creator of everything but actually IS everything. Not animism, but close to it. In other words God is our universe and when we die we just take on a different form within the same infinite structure. It sounds wierder than it is, but that's the Readers Digest version. So when the Bible says he knows when the sparrow falls, it doesn't mean that he knows it in the same way we do, but in fact it is part of him falling if that is an understandable concept. I'm not good at explaining it. The writers of the Bible were pretty smart folks and they codified a lot of human culture and wisdom. We, as a species are masters of our own fates inasmuch as we can make our world our own heaven or hell. That's what I think is meant allegorically in the Bible by the afterlife.
So its complicated. But I'll leave y'all with this little poem by Omar Khayyam (a Muslim, unfortunately for me quoting him on this forum), who was a pretty smart little effer in his own right. It probably is as close to anything in explaining how I think things are.
BKB

“I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell:
And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
And answer'd: 'I Myself am Heav'n and Hell”

[Buckrub]

I hear you. That's not my version. I don't think it's that vague. But that's just me. I am convinced that a Being that could create us all, and everything, would leave us a roadmap to the next life. And it's that "next life" that throws most folks confused belief into tithers. If it exists, how to get there? By your own volition? By following a plan? How closely?

As for Omar, I doubt he was much of a practicing muslim. Islam was trying to get a religious foothold in Persia and the surrounding areas, and India was a big influence on him too. Mohammed was just around a few centuries before, so Islam was still new in 1050. It wasn't the stronghold it is now. And there are historical data about how Omar hated the structured religion that Islam had become. He wrote a bunch against the reigning Imam's. But I suppose he could be claimed by Islam. But Omar also penned, in his additions to the Rubaiyat:

The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

[BarryBobPosthole]

Another of my favorites by him! Although I couldn't tell you for sure what it means. On one hand it could be that once we do something, it can't be undone, regardless of the forgiveness of others. On the other hand he could be talking about time marching on and we just have to deal with what the fates give us and move on. Or he could be talking about God. Or maybe he just wanted to be coy and make us think. Prolly not though.

One thing for sure: there is power in prayer. And not in the traditional sense but I believe there are potentials in the human spirit that we only know from the results. I've seen fates seemingly change from people bending their minds to a purpose, i.e. prayer. As for God intervening, I don't believe much in that. if he does intervene, then he's not the loving God we want him to be given his horrible track record. I mean, look at the human history. You really think that's the work of an infinite being who knows all sees all?

BKB

[Buckrub]

My view of Providence is not much the same as most of the Christian world. I doubt he intervenes much at all. However, I do attribute 100% of the 'way things are done' to a system that HE built and designed and implemented, and which is running at this time, and which will stop when HE decides, and a new one will come into play then. And I believe there will be multiple locations for folks to reside in, in that system. And I think what we do now, in this world, affects that decision.

How's that for euphemizing things?

P.S.
That said, I pray like a wild banshee. I pray more than anybody you know I betcha. Maybe I'm hedging my bets, I dunno. I am SURE He hears me. I am SURE He listens. I am not sure He responds, at least not where I can notice. And for sure not logically according to my pea brain.

[HideHunter]

But worrying over whether this is classified as a hate crime or not is the same as worrying over whether a murder is going to result in more gun control or not. And both, again IMO, it just makes us as shallow as the people who bother to put labels on the types of evil perpetrated on people. All I can visualize in my mind's eye are nine people lying dead in a church sanctuary and it doesn't matter if they were killed by some hateful fucker or not. Its evil incarnate and there isn't nothing we're ever going to legislate or fret over or preach over or pray over that is goingto prevent it from happening next time. It just is what it is. Its BAD.
So if you want to get incensed over whether its a 'hate crime' or not then go right ahead. But I think if you do you've missed the point of the sheer inhumanity of murder if you do.

BKB

Been thinking about this since I read it last night.. I usually just let you and Bucky squabble among yourselves. But, in this case, I'd like to add - "Bullshit" - being pissed because "someone" thinks they think they have to put a label on it, has no bearing on the compassion one might feel for the victims. And, it *will* be used by the anti-gun advocates and that pisses me off. I agree with White Oak.. "Murder" covers it quite nicely. Not looking for a running argument here - don't have the education, knowledge or staying power. That one just worked under my hide. There.. I'm done.. carry on..

[BarryBobPosthole]

And believe it or not that's kind of my point. Calling it a hate crime from the state point of view is a tactical decision and many times determines the fate of the criminal. And as you pointed out, a dispassionate answer is, to me, the smart way to approach any crime. So murder is murder, and there's no value judgement as to the value of the victims or the 'heinousness' of the crime.

Is heinousness a word? Heinocity? Heinafraglisticexpialadocious?

BKB

[Buckrub]

Good points all!

One more thing I'd change if I was prince of the planet.

"Not guilty by reason of insanity" would be ditched, and replaced with "Guilty, but insane".

[Cards01]

makes sense

[BarryBobPosthole]

Sunny, I wasn't ignoring your jack Graham/Satan post. Its a subject Graham should be familiar with. Do a google search on a guy named John Langworthy and you'll see what I mean. Jack Graham is a fraud.

BKB

[Buckrub]

No, don't think he said that. Or much of anything. But Graham covered up his knowledge of the guy who did it. Reasons unknown.

I need a lawyer because I don't know the civil code to the degree that they do. But I don't need a preacher or a 'priest' because I know THAT law better than most of them. Not bragging, just haven't found one yet that isn't true of. And I'd rather rely on my own view and interpretation of things, and correlation of all of it, than someone else's. I DO listen to their viewpoints though, and I'm sometimes helped by an insight. But in general, all of the time, on all subjects???????? Not so much.

[No-till Boss]

Nearly one year later, Langworthy was allowed to voluntarily resign from Morrison Heights Baptist Church in Clinton.

I was not asked to resign by the pastor or elders, said Langworthy to his congregation on Sunday. My resignation was the best decision for my family.

Dr. Jack Graham, who had just been named Prestonwood s pastor at the time the abuse was discovered, declined comment.